Author Topic: The Durant-Irving deception  (Read 9794 times)

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Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2019, 11:33:22 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Are we 100% sure KD and Kyrie are teaming up? While possible, I still think the C’s have the best chances of retaining him. I do think KD is gone from GSW but I think DA can convince Kyrie of the impending shakeup in this roster
I'm not. I am sure that Kyrie isn't coming back unless we shake up the current team somehow.

I assume that means AD, but who knows the NBA is weird. Still another month and a bit more before we know.

I definitely think a roster shake up is coming. Guys like Rozier know it. Tatum knows it. Jaylen Brown knows it. Horford knows it. The only one seemingly (or acting) oblivious is Marcus Smart. Other guys seem non-committal and are more focused on themselves, what they can bring, what they want, how they can adapt, etc etc. rather than talking about what the team can build towards next year.


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Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2019, 12:02:03 PM »

Offline Moranis

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If Durant is leaving GS regardless, why should GS expect a big return in trade? (i.e. lotto picks or top young players)

A "opt in" and trade resulting in Hayward is a lot better than just letting him walk, Right? Maybe they don't do it to save money but otherwise...
Comes back to Cleveland who was rumored to be interested in Hayward and has Smith and Henson/Clarkson that they could trade.  So Hayward goes to Cleveland, Smith, Henson/Clarkson, and a couple of the Boston 1st's this year to Golden State (Smith is mostly not guaranteed so he gets cut), with Durant coming to Boston. 

I think there is an almost 0% chance that happens, but it would at least be a pathway that makes some semblance of sense.
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Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2019, 12:05:00 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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If Durant is leaving GS regardless, why should GS expect a big return in trade? (i.e. lotto picks or top young players)

A "opt in" and trade resulting in Hayward is a lot better than just letting him walk, Right? Maybe they don't do it to save money but otherwise...

Because:

1. Boston can't sign Durant otherwise
2. Many across the league view Hayward's contract as an albatross
3. The Clippers got a huge haul from the Rockets for CP3 in a similar scenario
1. It depends on Durant's intention. Here I've speculated Boston is 1 and New York is 2. So there is leverage on GS side but it is not GS vs Boston as Durant intends to leave regardless (speculation not fact).
2. I don't know if this is true or not but it's undeniable that he was picking up value towards the end of the season. He's on course to be better next year.
3. I wouldn't call it huge, and I think this package largely depends on how you view Hayward. I think GS will see him as a plus, take his game against GS as an example of who he can be again.

Let's assume that Golden State does indeed settle for a reduced return for Durant.  Would Golden State be better off accepting Hayward and a pick, or letting Durant go to NY for nothing?

Taking on $60+ million for an unknown health risk might be too risky for them, particularly since Golden State would be deep in tax territory.
It could be Horford instead of Hayward potentially, could it not? Horford next to a more aggressive Draymond could be a really good pairing.

Yeah, that would be the better option for them, particularly on a one year deal.
Horford works too of course, my thoughts were that Hayward would be a better piece for them. Understandably I see a lot of negativity about his contract but I think some of that is because we've already shelled out $60m for his services. A new team won't have that as baggage. He's not Chandler Parsons post injury, he's still looking like he'll reach his previous level.

Uh the Clippers didn't get a huge haul for CP3. They got every role player who wasn't strapped down and a low first round pick.

Lou Williams was a nice bench player who just was worth a low first round pick at that point and Harrell was a out of rotation young project.

The Clippers got 3 main cogs on a legitimate playoff team: Lou Williams, who is coming off consecutive 6th man of the year awards; Montrezl Harrell, another finalist for the 6th man of the year award and a revelation in the pick-and-roll; and defensive specialist Patrick Beverly. These three took the Warriors to 6 games in the first round of the playoffs.

Not only that, the Clips got a protected 1st round pick and salary relief.

For a guy who was all but gone, that's a great haul.
It was a good haul, but that was in a situation where the Rockets had to go all in. I don't think we are in the same boat. If you assume that Kyrie leaves, as I've stated in my hypothesis, we are not a dog's dinner, we still have Tatum and Brown and a bright future, it's just the trajectory that changes.

Ultimately it's about making it work for both sides. For this to even begin to make sense Golden State would need to think Hayward is better than getting nothing. I think they would believe that, but can understand if others don't. Hayward to me is more valuable than the entire package the Rockets gave for Chris Paul, and I've proposed additional pieces including a good pick.

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2019, 12:23:25 PM »

Offline Never Nervous Pervis

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Quote
It was a good haul, but that was in a situation where the Rockets had to go all in.

At the time of the trade, CP3 was an off-injured 32 year-old PG with a long track record of playoff disappointment, whose super-max contract pays him $41,358,814 and $44,211,146 in the last two years of his contract.

By contrast, Durant is the most skilled player in the game, is coming off 2 straight NBA Finals MVPs, has been relatively durable over the course of his career and would immediately make the Celtics the favorite to win it all.

Quote
Hayward to me is more valuable than the entire package the Rockets gave for Chris Paul, and I've proposed additional pieces including a good pick.

I'd take Lou Williams, Harrell, Beverley and a 1st round pick for Hayward in a millisecond.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 02:27:42 PM by Never Nervous Pervis »

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2019, 02:58:18 PM »

Offline Scintan

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A trade with Golden State for Durant would start with Hayward/Horford, Tatum/Brown (if not both), and at least two first rounders.

Not likely, IMO.  Everyone would know that to be a gross overpay.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2019, 03:08:02 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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For a guy who was all but gone, that's a great haul.
They got two bench rotation players and a project young big man and a low first round pick.

Its a good package for a guy who's out the door no matter what, but its not a "haul". Its certainly not something that should make you think that in a similar situation the GSW would expect Brown + Tatum and picks.

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2019, 04:48:04 PM »

Offline Never Nervous Pervis

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A trade with Golden State for Durant would start with Hayward/Horford, Tatum/Brown (if not both), and at least two first rounders.

Not likely, IMO.  Everyone would know that to be a gross overpay.

It's not an overpay if it's legitimately the only chance the Celtics have to get the most skilled player in the NBA. The second Durant opts out, the Celtics are out of the mix.




Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2019, 04:54:27 PM »

Offline Never Nervous Pervis

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For a guy who was all but gone, that's a great haul.
They got two bench rotation players and a project young big man and a low first round pick.

Its a good package for a guy who's out the door no matter what, but its not a "haul". Its certainly not something that should make you think that in a similar situation the GSW would expect Brown + Tatum and picks.

Harrell and Lou Williams are two of three finalists for 6th man of the year, and would start on many teams. Beverley is a legit starter, and an NBA All-Defensive First Team player.

And again, that package was for an aging point guard who's never won anything, ever. We're talking Kevin Durant here, 2-time NBA Finals MVP.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 05:44:01 PM by Never Nervous Pervis »

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2019, 06:00:42 PM »

Online celticsclay

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For a guy who was all but gone, that's a great haul.
They got two bench rotation players and a project young big man and a low first round pick.

Its a good package for a guy who's out the door no matter what, but its not a "haul". Its certainly not something that should make you think that in a similar situation the GSW would expect Brown + Tatum and picks.

Harrell and Lou Williams are two of three finalists for 6th man of the year, and would start on many teams. Beverley is a legit starter, and an NBA All-Defensive First Team player.

And again, that package was for an aging point guard who's never won anything, ever. We're talking Kevin Durant here, 2-time NBA Finals MVP.

Yea Willliams and Beverly are really good players whether they happen to start or come off the bench.

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2019, 06:02:47 PM »

Online celticsclay

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If Durant is leaving GS regardless, why should GS expect a big return in trade? (i.e. lotto picks or top young players)

A "opt in" and trade resulting in Hayward is a lot better than just letting him walk, Right? Maybe they don't do it to save money but otherwise...
Comes back to Cleveland who was rumored to be interested in Hayward and has Smith and Henson/Clarkson that they could trade.  So Hayward goes to Cleveland, Smith, Henson/Clarkson, and a couple of the Boston 1st's this year to Golden State (Smith is mostly not guaranteed so he gets cut), with Durant coming to Boston. 

I think there is an almost 0% chance that happens, but it would at least be a pathway that makes some semblance of sense.

I feel like this puts Cleveland in cap heck for two years and they top out as like a 7 seed? Why not just trade Love with Smith's contract and get back a few young players to go along with sexton and lottery pick?

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2019, 06:04:14 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Deception?

not sure

but they seem like they are super tight

I expect Irving and Durant to sign with the Knicks.  Draft Barrett.

C  - Mitchell Robinson
PF - Durant
SF - Knox
SG - Barrett
PG - Irving

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2019, 06:30:33 PM »

Online celticsclay

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Deception?

not sure

but they seem like they are super tight

I expect Irving and Durant to sign with the Knicks.  Draft Barrett.

C  - Mitchell Robinson
PF - Durant
SF - Knox
SG - Barrett
PG - Irving

Second round exit?

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2019, 06:58:04 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Deception?

not sure

but they seem like they are super tight

I expect Irving and Durant to sign with the Knicks.  Draft Barrett.

C  - Mitchell Robinson
PF - Durant
SF - Knox
SG - Barrett
PG - Irving

Second round exit?

Yup

Irving - "so who cares"

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2019, 08:00:43 PM »

Offline Scintan

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A trade with Golden State for Durant would start with Hayward/Horford, Tatum/Brown (if not both), and at least two first rounders.

Not likely, IMO.  Everyone would know that to be a gross overpay.

It's not an overpay if it's legitimately the only chance the Celtics have to get the most skilled player in the NBA. The second Durant opts out, the Celtics are out of the mix.

Of course it's an overpay.  Whether you, or the Celtics, are willing to be taken to the cleaners in order to get the player is a separate issue.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: The Durant-Irving deception
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2019, 08:02:06 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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For a guy who was all but gone, that's a great haul.
They got two bench rotation players and a project young big man and a low first round pick.

Its a good package for a guy who's out the door no matter what, but its not a "haul". Its certainly not something that should make you think that in a similar situation the GSW would expect Brown + Tatum and picks.

Harrell and Lou Williams are two of three finalists for 6th man of the year, and would start on many teams. Beverley is a legit starter, and an NBA All-Defensive First Team player.

And again, that package was for an aging point guard who's never won anything, ever. We're talking Kevin Durant here, 2-time NBA Finals MVP.
They had a great year this year, they also had low trade value when it happened. Lou got moved for a low first round pick just a bit before the CP3 trade. Harrell wasn't playing and hadn't developed into the player he is now yet. It was a forced trade and the Clippers settled for the Rockets scraps.

Nuts what a run at the 8th seed will do for people's memory holing what happened. Also digging on CP3 for never having won anything while crowing about Lou "sucks in the playoffs like clockwork" Williams. (.490 TS% in the playoffs)  ???