Author Topic: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights  (Read 2016 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« on: May 21, 2019, 12:42:00 AM »

Offline sirnastee

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 108
  • Tommy Points: 6
I am wondering if you know the rules for this situation.  Is it possible that Horford opts out of his deal and becomes a free agent, and waits a few weeks only to resign with Celtics under his bird rights after the Celtics sign someone else to get back over the cap? 

Lets say Kyrie leaves, and Horford opts out.  We get cap space and sign a free agent to get back over the cap.  Then would it be possible to resign Horford at this point or are the bird rights lost?  What would be the difference if his contract was just expiring and we resigned him with Bird rights? 

I am assuming that this isn't possible as that is exactly what Danny would try to do if Kyrie walks, but wanted to confirm.

Thanks.  I would research it myself, but I don't even know where to find such information.

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2019, 12:51:56 AM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2935
  • Tommy Points: 349
As far as I know, this is the case:

Even if Horford opts out, the Celtics will still have a “cap hold” for Horford. They would need to renounce the rights to Horford and Irving (and Morris/Rozier and likely a player under contract for next year) outright in order to create any significant cap room.

In that case, they wouldn’t have the option of re-signing Al without his Bird Rights.

In short: I don’t think it can be done because they’d need to renounce him outright to create space, in which case re-signing would no longer be an option.

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2019, 12:58:11 AM »

Offline Monkhouse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6932
  • Tommy Points: 814
  • A true Celtic plays with heart.
Quote
Okay.

Copy and paste what I wrote in another thread.

As of right now we’re about $23-24 million over the cap space. If Irving leaves, it simply just puts it right back above the threshold where we’re still over.  So, let’s say Horford leaves, so we’re at around $71 million not including cap holds/draft picks.
Well let’s assume Smart gets traded to a team that can absorb his contract.
Our current cap holds if players are indeed given the Q/O to become our RFA’s.
$ 1.8 – Daniel Theis
$1.8 – Johnathan Gibson
$1.8 – Wanamaker
$10  - Morris (I could be wrong on this, I think it’s $5-7 million, but realGM has it at $10)
$9 – Rozier
$8-9 million for 3 draft picks.
$1.7 Jabari Bird (Cannot waive.)
$1.4 Shane Larkin (Cannot waive.)
Semi Ojeleye has $1.6 for non-guaranteed contract and can be swept off the books immediately.

So essentially Horford has a cap hold. We would need to renounce Mook, and Rozier.

Irving has no effect on our cap space. We are still over whether or not he stays. Horford also has a cap hold, if you waive him, you still wouldn't have enough enough to offer a max. And yes as you said, we lose bird rights.

So removing Horford from his cap hold is not in our best interest.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2019, 01:24:47 AM »

Offline sirnastee

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 108
  • Tommy Points: 6
As far as I know, this is the case:

Even if Horford opts out, the Celtics will still have a “cap hold” for Horford. They would need to renounce the rights to Horford and Irving (and Morris/Rozier and likely a player under contract for next year) outright in order to create any significant cap room.

In that case, they wouldn’t have the option of re-signing Al without his Bird Rights.

In short: I don’t think it can be done because they’d need to renounce him outright to create space, in which case re-signing would no longer be an option.

Ah, that's right.  Completely disregarded the cap holds.... Thanks for the clarification. 

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 01:27:23 AM »

Offline sirnastee

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 108
  • Tommy Points: 6
How about it Horford opts out and resigns for 5 mill next year and 30 million for 2 years after that for a total of 3 years at 65 million?  Are contracts still allowed to be made like this, or does it need to be within certain percentage year to year?

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2019, 03:46:06 AM »

Offline trickybilly

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5593
  • Tommy Points: 617
Time for Saltlover to take leave from his job at NASA.
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 04:17:53 AM »

Offline ozgod

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16751
  • Tommy Points: 1362
I am wondering if you know the rules for this situation.  Is it possible that Horford opts out of his deal and becomes a free agent, and waits a few weeks only to resign with Celtics under his bird rights after the Celtics sign someone else to get back over the cap? 

Lets say Kyrie leaves, and Horford opts out.  We get cap space and sign a free agent to get back over the cap.  Then would it be possible to resign Horford at this point or are the bird rights lost?  What would be the difference if his contract was just expiring and we resigned him with Bird rights? 

I am assuming that this isn't possible as that is exactly what Danny would try to do if Kyrie walks, but wanted to confirm.

Thanks.  I would research it myself, but I don't even know where to find such information.

This is a good start to learn the basics:
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/05/kyrie-irving-free-agency-what-happens-to-boston-celtics-salary-cap-if-he-leaves.html

If you want the details, you can find them here:
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 04:19:00 AM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
Time for Saltlover to take leave from his job at NASA.
Seeing him crush trade proposals left and right here would be a thing of beauty!
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 05:56:33 AM »

Online BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8913
  • Tommy Points: 1212
How about it Horford opts out and resigns for 5 mill next year and 30 million for 2 years after that for a total of 3 years at 65 million?  Are contracts still allowed to be made like this, or does it need to be within certain percentage year to year?

The max increase or decrease in yearly salary is 8% with Bird rights, so that isn't possible (the Gilbert Arenas provision is the exception to the 8% raise limit, but 1. Horford isn't eligible, and 2. the cap holds in that case are averaged out, so in this case would be $21.7 million all 3 years)

When you have a cap question, you should either look at the CBA FAQs to see if they answer your specific question (reading the whole thing is a tall task, but a few questions at a time to answer a question you have is totally reasonable), or at least come from the mindset that the league isn't stupid, they've been closing loopholes in the CBA for a loooong time. Big stuff like the two yuve suggested in this thread were thought of and disallowed a long time ago
I'm bitter.

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2019, 07:35:17 AM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
How about it Horford opts out and resigns for 5 mill next year and 30 million for 2 years after that for a total of 3 years at 65 million?  Are contracts still allowed to be made like this, or does it need to be within certain percentage year to year?

The max increase or decrease in yearly salary is 8% with Bird rights, so that isn't possible (the Gilbert Arenas provision is the exception to the 8% raise limit, but 1. Horford isn't eligible, and 2. the cap holds in that case are averaged out, so in this case would be $21.7 million all 3 years)

When you have a cap question, you should either look at the CBA FAQs to see if they answer your specific question (reading the whole thing is a tall task, but a few questions at a time to answer a question you have is totally reasonable), or at least come from the mindset that the league isn't stupid, they've been closing loopholes in the CBA for a loooong time. Big stuff like the two you've suggested in this thread were thought of and disallowed a long time ago

I agree that the CBA FAQs are very informative, but it's all easy stuff to forget if you don't keep up with it. I know, personally, I am not as in tune with the new CBA as I was when we were trying to sign Hayward (last off-season was so boring), but I still demolish all of my friends  :D

As you mention, though, it is a tall task to find exactly what you are looking for in there. It would probably be helpful for CS to have an open thread on cap questions in general. I've noticed through the years that people like answering these questions (you've been great at this, BJ) and it would be a great, informal way to get people the information they (and other members) desire without having to start a new thread.

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2019, 05:41:16 PM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6970
  • Tommy Points: 466
I am wondering if you know the rules for this situation.  Is it possible that Horford opts out of his deal and becomes a free agent, and waits a few weeks only to resign with Celtics under his bird rights after the Celtics sign someone else to get back over the cap? 

Lets say Kyrie leaves, and Horford opts out.  We get cap space and sign a free agent to get back over the cap.  Then would it be possible to resign Horford at this point or are the bird rights lost?  What would be the difference if his contract was just expiring and we resigned him with Bird rights? 

I am assuming that this isn't possible as that is exactly what Danny would try to do if Kyrie walks, but wanted to confirm.

Thanks.  I would research it myself, but I don't even know where to find such information.
Here is my general response to people trying to circumvent the salary cap.  Don't even try it.  Million dollar lawyers and smart people have spent a lot of time finding ways to close all the loopholes. 

As for your example, that one was probably the very first one they closed with the use of cap holds.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 06:07:17 PM by droopdog7 »

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2019, 06:06:28 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
I am wondering if you know the rules for this situation.  Is it possible that Horford opts out of his deal and becomes a free agent, and waits a few weeks only to resign with Celtics under his bird rights after the Celtics sign someone else to get back over the cap? 

Lets say Kyrie leaves, and Horford opts out.  We get cap space and sign a free agent to get back over the cap.  Then would it be possible to resign Horford at this point or are the bird rights lost?  What would be the difference if his contract was just expiring and we resigned him with Bird rights? 

I am assuming that this isn't possible as that is exactly what Danny would try to do if Kyrie walks, but wanted to confirm.

Thanks.  I would research it myself, but I don't even know where to find such information.


If Horford opts out the Celtics will retain his Bird Rights; however, there will be a massive cap hold for Horford unless the Celtics renounce his Bird Rights.  If they renounce the Bird Rights, they would have to sign Horford using cap space (which they won't have) or an exception to the cap, e.g. the MLE.


Basically, the plan you describe wouldn't work because in order to have any cap space to sign somebody after Horford opts out, the Celts would need to renounce Horford.


What could happen, though, is that Horford opts out and then re-signs immediately to a deal that starts him at a salary that is significantly below whatever his previous annual value and cap hold were at.  That might not create much cap space but it would give the Celts some breathing room with the luxury tax, at least.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2019, 06:31:18 PM »

Offline Green-18

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1253
  • Tommy Points: 130
I have a slightly unrelated question but I figured I would post in here instead of creating a new thread.  Let's say that the Bucks and Raptors somehow ends in 5 games and the Warriors win the Finals in less than 6.  Wouldn't this throw off revenue projections, leading to the salary cap falling below projections for next year?

I don't expect the season to end like this but it's certainly not impossible. 

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2019, 06:32:00 PM »

RazzelnoDazzel

  • Guest
This thread was extremely informative.

Re: Cap experts help - Horford Bird Rights
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2019, 06:50:42 PM »

Online bdm860

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5952
  • Tommy Points: 4586
Here is my general response to people trying to circumvent the salary cap.  Don't even try it.  Million dollars and smart people have spent a lot of time finding ways to close all the loopholes. 

As for your example, that one was probably the very first one they closed with the use of cap holds.

Eh, as long as there's new/evolving rules, there will be loopholes to exploit.

Just 2 years ago there was that loop hole that let Chris Paul be traded from LAC to Houston that has since been closed.  (For those that don't remember, Houston went out and acquired several small non-guaranteed contracts and used those to get to the salary requirements to trade for Paul, and because of that non-guaranteed salary can no longer be include for salary matching purposes).

And just this year, the Cavs helped Patrick McCaw get out of restricted free agency by signing him away from GS with a non-guaranteed contract and then waiving him 3 games later.  I'd bet that loop hole will be closed in the next CBA.  It seems like every CBA old loop holes are closed and new ones are found.


Also, might as well throw out a little history lesson as it applies to this whole convo.  So a lot of these rules came about because of what happened in the 1993 off season.  Chris Dudley (NJ to POR), Craig Ehlo (CLE to ATL), AC Green (LAL to PHX) all signed free agent contracts with new teams.  The new teams couldn't offer the same contracts that the old teams could though (since the old teams had Bird rights and could exceed the cap), so the new contracts were set up with an opt out after 1 year, after which they'd be signed to new, more lucrative contract.  If you're confused, here's how it worked:

New Jersey wanted to keep Dudley and offered him $20.7m/7yrs, with $1.56m in the first year.

Portland, could only afford to offer $11m/7yrs, with $790k in the first year.  Dudley took the Portland deal, then opted out after 1 year and re-signed for $24m/6yrs.

Then the next season, ORL tried to use this same tactic (one year opt out, then re-sign) to get Horace Grant from Chicago, offering Grant $22.3m/6yrs which was less per year than Chicago was offering. After this deal was signed, a judge ruled against it, and Grant had to take a 2 year opt out instead.  Then 2 years later when he opted out,  Grant was re-signed to a front loaded $50m/5yr which paid him $14.9m and $14.3m in the first 2 years.  And that's the story about how role player Horace Grant became the 2nd highest paid player in the league in '96 and the 3rd highest paid in '97, and why you now need 3 years with a team (or be traded) to have Bird rights.


After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class