Author Topic: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)  (Read 364726 times)

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Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1500 on: December 09, 2018, 07:26:39 PM »

Offline Big333223

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LB, that’s a really long winded response, but you failed to address your contradictory statements. Does culture matter or not?

First you said:
Most of the examples above would have looked differently had they been developed in Boston.  Our system seems to get the most out of people.  Okafor and Noel's careers would have looked a heck of a lot different had they ended up in Boston.

Then:
My argument all along was that "losing culture" didn't matter.

Now:
There are other prospects who benefit from being nurtured slowly in a quality environment.

In LarBrd's defense I don't think those two things are necessarily contradictory. In one statement he's talking about an organization's culture, in the other he's talking about a system of developing talent.
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Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1501 on: December 09, 2018, 07:31:07 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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A lot of interesting things here. I guess I feel like overall people are anointing Simmons before he has really done anything. I’m not convinced that he is a hard worker and will ever get a jump shot. So then the 76ers are left with embiid as their one superstar. I’m not sure that makes them different than a bunch of other teams in the east. Who knows though

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1502 on: December 09, 2018, 07:51:00 PM »

Offline Moranis

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So the argument is over whether the risk of creating a losing culture through tanking makes it unlikely that tanking will result in a team getting better?  I am really not sure who is arguing what but I think it is pretty clear that it doesn't matter.  If a team brings in some really good players through the draft (or otherwise) the team will get better.

My problem with Tanking is that the process of drafting itself is very risky.
It took Philly, what, 5 or 6 really high picks to get a couple of stars.
Technically the first time they shamelessly tanked they ended up with Joel Embiid. 

The second time, they whiffed and took Okafor.

Third time - Ben Simmons.

The point is to get the highest possible picks, because the very top of the draft is typically where superstar talent enters the league.  Still, it's possible for a team to get very unlucky.  The Kings have missed the playoffs for years.  They've whiffed it on numerous top 5 picks.  Still, a better GM could have taken those assets and turned it into a team.  It takes a special type of stupid to consistently fail that hard.   Philly tried to take it a step further by maximizing their chance at the #1 pick.  I liked that ownership had the balls to try it that shamelessly.  It worked.  Good for them.
The Kings problem actually was not landing in the top 3 until this past season and they've only had 5 top 5 picks since Billy Owens in 1991 (2009 Evans at 4, 2010 Cousins at 5, 2012 Robinson at 5, 2017 Fox at 5, and 2018 Bagley at 2).  The Kings are the exact reason a team should tank, so that can actually get the high draft picks where you are far more likely to land a star player (the obviously missed on some of those, but that is the point). 
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Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1503 on: December 09, 2018, 07:52:56 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I don't fault Philly on missing on picks.  Drafting is a crap shoot.  Even the criticism on picking too many bigs, I would have picked the best available as well, worry about fit later.  I think the tank started with Noel, included Embiid and Okafor and then they got Simmons.  Along the way, there were some others as well.

Okafor for example was supposed to be a stud.  Was that a bad pick or just an illustration of the reality of how much of a crap shoot drafting is?  I would not have hesitated to pick Okafor.  My point stands that the problem with tanking is that you are banking on drafting.  Even picks in the top 5 are a 50-50 proposition at best.

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1504 on: December 09, 2018, 07:57:36 PM »

Offline rondofan1255

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Kings pick actually got lucky in 2017 and turned into #3, but because of the pick swap with Philly ended up swapping with Philly’s #5

Big piece of history considering the trade was #1 for #3 and future pick

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1505 on: December 09, 2018, 07:59:30 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I don't fault Philly on missing on picks.  Drafting is a crap shoot.  Even the criticism on picking too many bigs, I would have picked the best available as well, worry about fit later.  I think the tank started with Noel, included Embiid and Okafor and then they got Simmons.  Along the way, there were some others as well.

Okafor for example was supposed to be a stud.  Was that a bad pick or just an illustration of the reality of how much of a crap shoot drafting is?  I would not have hesitated to pick Okafor.  My point stands that the problem with tanking is that you are banking on drafting.  Even picks in the top 5 are a 50-50 proposition at best.

With Okafor there were always concerns. People knew he could score, but they worried about his mobility and his defense. Plus, there was no collegiate evidence to demonstrate he could defend even at that level because Coach K hid him in a zone the entire year.

Porzingis was always the better fit, but he refused to provide medicals or workout for them because the environment was toxic. Who knows what would’ve happened if he didn’t feel that way. Perhaps they identity his talent during a workout and take him at #3.

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1506 on: December 09, 2018, 08:06:46 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I don't fault Philly on missing on picks.  Drafting is a crap shoot.  Even the criticism on picking too many bigs, I would have picked the best available as well, worry about fit later.  I think the tank started with Noel, included Embiid and Okafor and then they got Simmons.  Along the way, there were some others as well.

Okafor for example was supposed to be a stud.  Was that a bad pick or just an illustration of the reality of how much of a crap shoot drafting is?  I would not have hesitated to pick Okafor.  My point stands that the problem with tanking is that you are banking on drafting.  Even picks in the top 5 are a 50-50 proposition at best.

With Okafor there were always concerns. People knew he could score, but they worried about his mobility and his defense. Plus, there was no collegiate evidence to demonstrate he could defend even at that level because Coach K hid him in a zone the entire year.

Porzingis was always the better fit, but he refused to provide medicals or workout for them because the environment was toxic. Who knows what would’ve happened if he didn’t feel that way. Perhaps they identity his talent during a workout and take him at #3.
Or maybe he just wanted to be in NY.  Or maybe his agent didn't want the Zinger on the same team as his other big man client Noel so they wouldn't cannibalize each other. 

I mean Josh Jackson wouldn't work out for the Celtics because he didn't want to come to Boston.  He wanted to go to Phoenix where he thought he would have a much easier time gaining playing time. 

These stories can spun however the author wants and Woj was generally pretty tough on Hinkie, so that was always how he was going to spin that when he broke the story.  It doesn't mean that is actually true though.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1507 on: December 09, 2018, 08:34:37 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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So the argument is over whether the risk of creating a losing culture through tanking makes it unlikely that tanking will result in a team getting better?  I am really not sure who is arguing what but I think it is pretty clear that it doesn't matter.  If a team brings in some really good players through the draft (or otherwise) the team will get better.

I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I do think that Hinkie should’ve surrounded their draft picks with a bunch of good locker room vets. Perhaps that could’ve helped out Okafor not act like an idiot, Noel to not eat hotdogs during a game, or Embiid to not voice his displeasure to the media.

Hinkie took that team into a toilet and it was an embarrassing spectacle. It was so bad that he lost his job for it and will probably never work in the NBA again. All for what? To lose in the ECSF last year to a team missing to its best 2 players? To lose again in the ECSF again this season? They’re on a fast track to becoming what they didn’t want to be. They’re about to be the 80s Bucks.
I agree with some of the things you said. 

It think one of our biggest disconnects in the past was you thinking I was a Hinkie fanboy. I never saw that guy as a better GM than Danny Ainge.  Certainly other GMs have done what he's done (Ainge himself, Sam Presti) with success.  What I was a "fan" of (moreso just fascinated by it) was that Philly's ownership signed off on letting Hinkie run the team like a NBA2k sim.  I've done some exact version of what Hinkie did thousands of times in that game and it always works. 

- Shed salary

- Fill your roster with scrubs and young guys so you can tank

- Take multiple swings at the top of the draft until you inevitably land a franchise talent

It was fascinating from the start and the results speak for themselves.  Two of the three guys he tanked for are thought to be transcendent talents.  The assets he acquired (Saric as part of the Holiday trade and Convington as a G-League signing) were eventually flipped for a 3rd all-star.  And any bellyaching about how the shameless years of tanking ruined their reputation and made them a laughingstock got wiped away as soon as they started cooking teams on their way to a 50+ win season.  It's not like fans are still boycotting them.  It's one of the most hyped fanbases in the NBA.

You can criticize plenty of things Philly has done since Hinkie stepped down.  The Fultz debacle might be at the tippy top of the list.  That said, credit where credit is due - Hinkie abusing the Kings in Stauskas trade is why Philly even ended up with the 2017 3rd pick (via the Kings) and future Kings 1st to even move for Fultz.  Consider ourselves lucky that the Colangelo administration didn't just draft Tatum with that pick or trade down for a guy like Fox and additional assets.

Bottom line:  It worked.  Achieving a 50+ win season for the first time in decades put this whole thing to rest.  Their ownership group was right to empower Hinkie's plan.  It paid off.  Embiid is transcendent.  Simmons may be as well.  They have a 3rd star in Butler thanks to their asset hoarding.  They are positioned to add a 4th star via free agency.   They can certainly drop the ball from here on out, but the return to relevance has already been accomplished.  And as much as things are made of how bad a fit Simmons is... you know they would have no trouble flipping Simmons + Chandler for someone like Bradley Beal right now if they wanted to. Most would actually consider it a massive overpay on the part of the Sixers despite it potentially being a "better fit" with Butler and Embiid.  They have lots of options.   The point is that they are already one of the favorites to win the East, because of the tanking... and the tanking has put them in position to make hypothetical moves like that if they so choose.  Whether or not they'll mess up from here is on them.   
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 08:39:50 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1508 on: December 10, 2018, 01:13:13 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1509 on: December 10, 2018, 04:42:22 AM »

Online GreenEnvy

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I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief

So true.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. They have whiffed on more top picks than they hit, and even their stars have glaring weaknesses. If they were at all competetent they would be sooooo much better, even just in their drafting.

Alas, they are a flawed team, they are not championship caliber. I guess being relevant is something to be proud of.
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Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1510 on: December 10, 2018, 06:09:32 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1511 on: December 10, 2018, 06:30:51 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

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I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
And the Sixers actually only finished with the worst record in 1 of those 3 years. 

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1512 on: December 10, 2018, 07:22:27 AM »

Offline moiso

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I don't really even know why we are still debating this.  It looks like a thread from three years ago.  I thought we were done with it.  We covered every angle and there are no fresh points to be made.  We have posters who have been gone popping up to say "I told you so."  This thread is about the Sixers but I don't know why we are rehashing old news.  They are an interesting team now with Embiid the superstar with a big personality, Simmons who has amazing tools and glaring flaws, the addition of Butler, and the struggles of Fultz.  The tanking debate is tired, though.  And they aren't better than the Celtics, and probably not Toronto and Milwaukee too.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 07:27:35 AM by moiso »

Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1513 on: December 10, 2018, 07:31:33 AM »

Offline Androslav

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I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
I just don't see the way they beat us if we aren't ruined by injuries at the moment.

They have a very shallow roster and they have critical weaknesses all over the place:
- 5th man (Chandler is questionable, both injury and skills)
- 6th man - who?
- 7th man - -ll-
- Reddick getting posted up by guys a head taller then he is, we saw that last year and they suffered. We can imagine Chamot being Belinelli
- Spacing issues (Simmons we know how that goes, Embiid is career 31%, also Butler is no knockdown shooter)
- Coach Brown hasn't exactly proven himself last year, the jury is still out. He had brain farts.
- Leadership and ego issues (Embiid already stating he doesn't like to roam on the 3pt line, Butler has his history, Simmons doesn't see himself as a 3rd wheel longterm)
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot - the confetti karma police will come asking for them too.

I like Philly, they are a fun team to follow (good and the bad), but in a reversed question exercise;
On what base could they think that they can beat us in 7 games?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 07:37:12 AM by Androslav »
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Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
« Reply #1514 on: December 10, 2018, 08:26:50 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
I just don't see the way they beat us if we aren't ruined by injuries at the moment.

They have a very shallow roster and they have critical weaknesses all over the place:
- 5th man (Chandler is questionable, both injury and skills)
- 6th man - who?
- 7th man - -ll-
- Reddick getting posted up by guys a head taller then he is, we saw that last year and they suffered. We can imagine Chamot being Belinelli
- Spacing issues (Simmons we know how that goes, Embiid is career 31%, also Butler is no knockdown shooter)
- Coach Brown hasn't exactly proven himself last year, the jury is still out. He had brain farts.
- Leadership and ego issues (Embiid already stating he doesn't like to roam on the 3pt line, Butler has his history, Simmons doesn't see himself as a 3rd wheel longterm)
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot - the confetti karma police will come asking for them too.

I like Philly, they are a fun team to follow (good and the bad), but in a reversed question exercise;
On what base could they think that they can beat us in 7 games?
They will have the 2 best players in the series.  Talent often wins out, especially in the playoffs when the rotations shrink and everyone plays more. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip