Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan

[Lightskinsmurf]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

[wayupnorth]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

[Roy H.]

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

Do you have a link for that?  I'd be interested to see what numbers you're referencing.

[Lightskinsmurf]

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

Do you have a link for that?  I'd be interested to see what numbers you're referencing.

Its actually a video. I can find It later if you want.

[BballTim]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

  If Durant wasn't in the league (or never wins a title) then LeBron would be similar to MJ, struggling to win in the postseason until Kobe/KG/Shaq/TD were past their prime and having great success when there's no superstars to challenge him.

So I guess the crux of your argument is that Jordan wouldn't have won as many titles had his prime overlapped with Magic and Bird's prime.   You know, I'm actually not going to disagree with you there man.  BUt I tell you what... Magic and bird wouldn't have won as many titles had their prime overlapped with the mid-90s Bulls... so it goes both ways.

  The 90s Bulls would have probably beaten those late 80s Lakers teams, but if Bird was healthy they'd have been watching the finals on tv. IMO the only reason MJ is seen as better than Bird or Magic is the lack of a worthy opponent in his prime.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

[BballTim]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

[wayupnorth]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

No matter how you try and slice it, Russell is just a far better overall better basketball player than Jordan.

Seriously.

Just you because you (and ESPN) believe something, doesn't mean it is true.

[BballTim]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

[Lightskinsmurf]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

[Lightskinsmurf]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Also when I said "You're better than that" That was more of a compliment than a diss. The second half of the game is about to start tho so I'm going back to the gamethread!

[wayupnorth]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

Seriously? You use offensive stats to try and prove how bad Bill Russell is.

Are you even aware of what he is known for? Or are you simply out for a nice sTROLL?

[Lightskinsmurf]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

Seriously? You use offensive stats to try and prove how bad Bill Russell is.

Are you even aware of what he is known for? Or are you simply out for a nice sTROLL?

Nobody ever said russell was bad. I said putting him on jordans level is insane. The fact that you can't even use offensive numbers when talking about russell says it all lol.

[Roy H.]

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

Do you have a link for that?  I'd be interested to see what numbers you're referencing.

Its actually a video. I can find It later if you want.

Yeah, that would be cool.  It's hard to find box scores from before the mid-80s.