Author Topic: Tatum 1st team All NBA  (Read 6930 times)

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Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2022, 10:49:34 AM »

Offline seancally

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Tatum is officially a top 5 NBA player! Now all the people that keep saying we can't win it all because we don't have a top 5 player can shut the hell up.

Welllllllll akshuallyyyyyy Embiid got more overall votes. Tatum was 6th in raw votes. But I think we all agree he is better than Booker, at least. So still top 5  ;D

This is still a tough question.  Top 5 this year but several really good veteran players are not included on the first team as injuries impacted them:

Durant
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden

Any of these could bounce back and be better than Tatum next season, leaving Tatum out of the top 5 but still in the top 10.  I am fine with that.  It doesn't matter so much to me whether he ranks 4 or 6 or 8.  He is our star and will pass all of these players in due course.  I don't see it as so definitive that if Tatum is 4th we can win a title but if he is 7th, we can't.  We can win a title with Tatum, that much should now be indisputable based on what the Celtics have done this season and this playoff run.

But if we're accounting for bounce-backs, we also need to consider steps forward. The days of those guys being ahead of Tatum are numbered, if not over completely.

Agree with all that, but I don’t think Harden is going to surpass Tatum. Any bounce-back offensively will still come with major defensive limitations. I don’t see it.

The other three are almost guaranteed to be in the conversation.
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Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2022, 10:50:21 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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Tatum is officially a top 5 NBA player! Now all the people that keep saying we can't win it all because we don't have a top 5 player can shut the hell up.

Welllllllll akshuallyyyyyy Embiid got more overall votes. Tatum was 6th in raw votes. But I think we all agree he is better than Booker, at least. So still top 5  ;D

This is still a tough question.  Top 5 this year but several really good veteran players are not included on the first team as injuries impacted them:

Durant
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden

Any of these could bounce back and be better than Tatum next season, leaving Tatum out of the top 5 but still in the top 10.  I am fine with that.  It doesn't matter so much to me whether he ranks 4 or 6 or 8.  He is our star and will pass all of these players in due course.  I don't see it as so definitive that if Tatum is 4th we can win a title but if he is 7th, we can't.  We can win a title with Tatum, that much should now be indisputable based on what the Celtics have done this season and this playoff run.

Are you serious with Harden having a chance of making first team all nba next year?

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2022, 11:00:08 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Tatum is officially a top 5 NBA player! Now all the people that keep saying we can't win it all because we don't have a top 5 player can shut the hell up.

Welllllllll akshuallyyyyyy Embiid got more overall votes. Tatum was 6th in raw votes. But I think we all agree he is better than Booker, at least. So still top 5  ;D

This is still a tough question.  Top 5 this year but several really good veteran players are not included on the first team as injuries impacted them:

Durant
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden

Any of these could bounce back and be better than Tatum next season, leaving Tatum out of the top 5 but still in the top 10.  I am fine with that.  It doesn't matter so much to me whether he ranks 4 or 6 or 8.  He is our star and will pass all of these players in due course.  I don't see it as so definitive that if Tatum is 4th we can win a title but if he is 7th, we can't.  We can win a title with Tatum, that much should now be indisputable based on what the Celtics have done this season and this playoff run.

But if we're accounting for bounce-backs, we also need to consider steps forward. The days of those guys being ahead of Tatum are numbered, if not over completely.

I agree and actually said exactly that [ Tatum ] will pass all of these players in due course.  I don't know when that will be and I also don't know what players may emerge and find their way up the ladder (Morant, Williamson are a couple that come to mind).  But I think for next season, there are a few vets that are likely to bounce back and contend for the "top 5" ahead of Tatum.

Again, I don't think it matters so much if Tatum is 4, 7 or 10.  He is a star that you can build a title team around now and will be for several years to come.  That to me is the important point for the franchise.

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2022, 11:02:08 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Tatum is officially a top 5 NBA player! Now all the people that keep saying we can't win it all because we don't have a top 5 player can shut the hell up.

Welllllllll akshuallyyyyyy Embiid got more overall votes. Tatum was 6th in raw votes. But I think we all agree he is better than Booker, at least. So still top 5  ;D

This is still a tough question.  Top 5 this year but several really good veteran players are not included on the first team as injuries impacted them:

Durant
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden

Any of these could bounce back and be better than Tatum next season, leaving Tatum out of the top 5 but still in the top 10.  I am fine with that.  It doesn't matter so much to me whether he ranks 4 or 6 or 8.  He is our star and will pass all of these players in due course.  I don't see it as so definitive that if Tatum is 4th we can win a title but if he is 7th, we can't.  We can win a title with Tatum, that much should now be indisputable based on what the Celtics have done this season and this playoff run.

Are you serious with Harden having a chance of making first team all nba next year?

Yes.  Not saying likely but I have not counted him out just yet.  He may be more likely to bounce back than Kawhi.  None of them are for sure, all have plenty of miles on them.  The point is that one or two of them could be ahead of Tatum next season.

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2022, 11:21:55 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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Tatum is officially a top 5 NBA player! Now all the people that keep saying we can't win it all because we don't have a top 5 player can shut the hell up.

Welllllllll akshuallyyyyyy Embiid got more overall votes. Tatum was 6th in raw votes. But I think we all agree he is better than Booker, at least. So still top 5  ;D

This is still a tough question.  Top 5 this year but several really good veteran players are not included on the first team as injuries impacted them:

Durant
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden

Any of these could bounce back and be better than Tatum next season, leaving Tatum out of the top 5 but still in the top 10.  I am fine with that.  It doesn't matter so much to me whether he ranks 4 or 6 or 8.  He is our star and will pass all of these players in due course.  I don't see it as so definitive that if Tatum is 4th we can win a title but if he is 7th, we can't.  We can win a title with Tatum, that much should now be indisputable based on what the Celtics have done this season and this playoff run.

Are you serious with Harden having a chance of making first team all nba next year?

Yes.  Not saying likely but I have not counted him out just yet.  He may be more likely to bounce back than Kawhi.  None of them are for sure, all have plenty of miles on them.  The point is that one or two of them could be ahead of Tatum next season.

I think Durant definitely has a chance because he probably would have made it this year without the injuries. If this was ten years ago where people didn’t pay as much attention to the defensive side of the ball I would think Lebron had a very small chance of making it. However, he is in a moderate decline and he hid it to some by putting up gaudy offensive numbers (and he is still great offensively), however I don’t think the new coach is going to want to come in and let the team continue as a circus asking nothing on defense of Lebron and let him chase stats which was an extremely losing brand of basketball. New coach also won’t play Lebron 35 minutes a game so his numbers will take a hit.

Leonard is youngest of group but has hardly played in two years. I almost expect him to rest second nights of back to back the rest of his career so he seems more likely to make second or third team if he plays well.

Harden I just see zero chance unless he 100% becomes a new person at 33. A lot of the players even joke about how often he goes to the strip club and parties (there was literally a segment they mentioned on shaqtin a fool last night during rain delay). Plus he is going to be sharing offensive load with Embid and maxey suppressing his numbers even he comes back living as a sober vegan dedicated to yoga.

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2022, 11:43:42 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Tatum is officially a top 5 NBA player! Now all the people that keep saying we can't win it all because we don't have a top 5 player can shut the hell up.

Welllllllll akshuallyyyyyy Embiid got more overall votes. Tatum was 6th in raw votes. But I think we all agree he is better than Booker, at least. So still top 5  ;D

This is still a tough question.  Top 5 this year but several really good veteran players are not included on the first team as injuries impacted them:

Durant
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden

Any of these could bounce back and be better than Tatum next season, leaving Tatum out of the top 5 but still in the top 10.  I am fine with that.  It doesn't matter so much to me whether he ranks 4 or 6 or 8.  He is our star and will pass all of these players in due course.  I don't see it as so definitive that if Tatum is 4th we can win a title but if he is 7th, we can't.  We can win a title with Tatum, that much should now be indisputable based on what the Celtics have done this season and this playoff run.

Are you serious with Harden having a chance of making first team all nba next year?

Yes.  Not saying likely but I have not counted him out just yet.  He may be more likely to bounce back than Kawhi.  None of them are for sure, all have plenty of miles on them.  The point is that one or two of them could be ahead of Tatum next season.

I think Durant definitely has a chance because he probably would have made it this year without the injuries. If this was ten years ago where people didn’t pay as much attention to the defensive side of the ball I would think Lebron had a very small chance of making it. However, he is in a moderate decline and he hid it to some by putting up gaudy offensive numbers (and he is still great offensively), however I don’t think the new coach is going to want to come in and let the team continue as a circus asking nothing on defense of Lebron and let him chase stats which was an extremely losing brand of basketball. New coach also won’t play Lebron 35 minutes a game so his numbers will take a hit.

Leonard is youngest of group but has hardly played in two years. I almost expect him to rest second nights of back to back the rest of his career so he seems more likely to make second or third team if he plays well.

Harden I just see zero chance unless he 100% becomes a new person at 33. A lot of the players even joke about how often he goes to the strip club and parties (there was literally a segment they mentioned on shaqtin a fool last night during rain delay). Plus he is going to be sharing offensive load with Embid and maxey suppressing his numbers even he comes back living as a sober vegan dedicated to yoga.

That is my point exactly.  If Durant has a good season, he could easily make first team as a forward and Tatum would be second team.  Then say Ja Morant stays healthy and he beats our Booker as a guard.  Then you still have Embiid on the second team but with more votes than Tatum.  That could result in Tatum being 7th best in terms of just this measure.

Again, I think this is a immaterial argument anyway.  I don't care if Tatum is 4 or 7 by this informal measure.  Some people get hung up on whether or not you can win a title with or without a top 5 player.  The bottom line question is can the Celtics win a title with a team built around Tatum as your best player.  I think it is now pretty clear that you can.  He needs a good (and healthy) team around him but that is no different than Jokic, Giannis, LeBron, or anyone.

Tatum may well be the best player left in the "final four".  Many would pick Doncic over Tatum and that is fine.  Some may even take Curry over either.  I could understand that argument also.  But it might even be Butler who is the best player on the team that wins the title this year (least likely but still possible).

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2022, 12:35:37 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Tatum is officially a top 5 NBA player! Now all the people that keep saying we can't win it all because we don't have a top 5 player can shut the hell up.

Welllllllll akshuallyyyyyy Embiid got more overall votes. Tatum was 6th in raw votes. But I think we all agree he is better than Booker, at least. So still top 5  ;D

This is still a tough question.  Top 5 this year but several really good veteran players are not included on the first team as injuries impacted them:

Durant
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden

Any of these could bounce back and be better than Tatum next season, leaving Tatum out of the top 5 but still in the top 10.  I am fine with that.  It doesn't matter so much to me whether he ranks 4 or 6 or 8.  He is our star and will pass all of these players in due course.  I don't see it as so definitive that if Tatum is 4th we can win a title but if he is 7th, we can't.  We can win a title with Tatum, that much should now be indisputable based on what the Celtics have done this season and this playoff run.

Are you serious with Harden having a chance of making first team all nba next year?

Yes.  Not saying likely but I have not counted him out just yet.  He may be more likely to bounce back than Kawhi.  None of them are for sure, all have plenty of miles on them.  The point is that one or two of them could be ahead of Tatum next season.

I think Durant definitely has a chance because he probably would have made it this year without the injuries. If this was ten years ago where people didn’t pay as much attention to the defensive side of the ball I would think Lebron had a very small chance of making it. However, he is in a moderate decline and he hid it to some by putting up gaudy offensive numbers (and he is still great offensively), however I don’t think the new coach is going to want to come in and let the team continue as a circus asking nothing on defense of Lebron and let him chase stats which was an extremely losing brand of basketball. New coach also won’t play Lebron 35 minutes a game so his numbers will take a hit.

Leonard is youngest of group but has hardly played in two years. I almost expect him to rest second nights of back to back the rest of his career so he seems more likely to make second or third team if he plays well.

Harden I just see zero chance unless he 100% becomes a new person at 33. A lot of the players even joke about how often he goes to the strip club and parties (there was literally a segment they mentioned on shaqtin a fool last night during rain delay). Plus he is going to be sharing offensive load with Embid and maxey suppressing his numbers even he comes back living as a sober vegan dedicated to yoga.

That is my point exactly.  If Durant has a good season, he could easily make first team as a forward and Tatum would be second team.  Then say Ja Morant stays healthy and he beats our Booker as a guard.  Then you still have Embiid on the second team but with more votes than Tatum.  That could result in Tatum being 7th best in terms of just this measure.

Again, I think this is a immaterial argument anyway.  I don't care if Tatum is 4 or 7 by this informal measure.  Some people get hung up on whether or not you can win a title with or without a top 5 player.  The bottom line question is can the Celtics win a title with a team built around Tatum as your best player.  I think it is now pretty clear that you can.  He needs a good (and healthy) team around him but that is no different than Jokic, Giannis, LeBron, or anyone.

Tatum may well be the best player left in the "final four".  Many would pick Doncic over Tatum and that is fine.  Some may even take Curry over either.  I could understand that argument also.  But it might even be Butler who is the best player on the team that wins the title this year (least likely but still possible).
Oh I 100% agree with you on all of this. It seems like one or two people wrote a dissertation on top 5 players and championships and they bring up this completely subjective measure as fact every year. It should be a high level all star (eg not Kyle korver) and with the right pieces you can win. If this isn’t obvious when the Celtics have knocked out durant and Gianni’s already this playoffs I don’t know what will convince people. So yeah maybe Tatum is 4, maybe he is 7. But he is more than good enough to be our best player and we could very legitimately win the title this year.

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2022, 01:08:46 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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One thing that doesn't get mentioned enough is that, as the game has become more popular worldwide, the NUMBER of great players has increased.

Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Embiid. Thirty years ago these guys probably never make it to the NBA because they probably aren't playing ball back home.

The pool of top-end talent has deepened - the freaks who can't be stopped - and therefore there are more teams contending than before. I think parity has arrived. It would be even more evident if there hadn't been so many injuries this year. But there are a lot of teams that can win the title.

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2022, 01:14:57 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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One thing that doesn't get mentioned enough is that, as the game has become more popular worldwide, the NUMBER of great players has increased.

Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Embiid. Thirty years ago these guys probably never make it to the NBA because they probably aren't playing ball back home.

The pool of top-end talent has deepened - the freaks who can't be stopped - and therefore there are more teams contending than before. I think parity has arrived. It would be even more evident if there hadn't been so many injuries this year. But there are a lot of teams that can win the title.

This was definitely not a great year for "Superteams". 

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2022, 02:06:37 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Interesting.

Quote
StatMuse
@statmuse
·
57s
The Heat are the third 1 seed from either conference to not have a single player named All-NBA since 2000.

2022 Heat
2015 Hawks
2012 Bulls

The other 2 teams had their coach finish top 2 in COTY voting. Eric Spoelstra only received 1 first place vote this season.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2022, 02:12:17 PM »

Online Celtics2021

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Interesting.

Quote
StatMuse
@statmuse
·
57s
The Heat are the third 1 seed from either conference to not have a single player named All-NBA since 2000.

2022 Heat
2015 Hawks
2012 Bulls

The other 2 teams had their coach finish top 2 in COTY voting. Eric Spoelstra only received 1 first place vote this season.

Notably, neither of those other two #1 seeds made it past the conference finals (Chicago didn't even make it out of the first roumd).

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2022, 02:21:13 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Lol.  Somebody gave Kyrie a 3rd Team vote.


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Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2022, 02:25:50 PM »

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Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2022, 02:29:57 PM »

Online Celtics2021

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Lol.  Somebody gave Kyrie a 3rd Team vote.

Jalen Rose.

https://pr.nba.com/voting-results-2021-22-nba-regular-season-awards/

Thanks for the link.  Now I know that Mark Medina was the sole voter to leave Smart off the All-Defense ballot.

Re: Tatum 1st team All NBA
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2022, 02:35:08 PM »

Online Celtics2021

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Lol.  Somebody gave Kyrie a 3rd Team vote.

Jalen Rose.

https://pr.nba.com/voting-results-2021-22-nba-regular-season-awards/

Thanks for the link.  Now I know that Mark Medina was the sole voter to leave Smart off the All-Defense ballot.

Also, Perk was one of three voters to give Jaylen an All-NBA vote (along with Jason Quick and Justin Termine).