Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer

[LooseCannon]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

You saw it as the Cavs flipping the switch; I saw it as the Celtics lacking poise and letting winnable games slip away in the third quarter.

[slamtheking]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

Come on man. Can you please stop posting links to your old threads? It just makes us look bad as a whole as celtics fans. Nobody wants to see what one particular poster wrote in March. Furthermore, try to think about this, if everyone did this, what would the board be like? Can you imagine how horrible this board would be if all the regular posters constantly included their old links and predictions about things? That would just be a mess.

Clay check out the thread. It was written when we were a half game above the 9th worst record with only a couple weeks to go.  The entire debate was on whether or not it was worth it to make the playoffs and get stuck picking 15/16.  It's extremely relevant to this conversation. We knew the repercussions of making the playoffs.  We knew we couldn't trade up to #9.   The nail couldn't have possibly been hit harder on the head.  Considering we tried giving up 4 first round draft picks to move up from 15 to 9 (and failed), it's interesting to look back on that discussion.  We are echoing a debate we had before our little two week run played us out of a lotto pick... Except now we have proof of how much that draft pick gap actually is.

I was on board with the playoff push though.  Getting Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year made it all worth it.

I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it.  I think if Charlotte was run by someone with a clue (i.e. not Michael Jordan) that deal would have been more than enough to get #9.   think about it, who in their right mind in an NBA front office would be that zoned in on Frank Kaminsky that they'd turn down that offer? 

It's not like Charlotte was zoned in on a guy that was projected to have serious upside like Winslow or Turner.  Jordan just had a mad-on for the guy most likely to contribute next year even though there's likely to be several players taken after him that turn out to be better players. 

If we were trying to make the deal with either Miami or Indy who took Winslow and Turner respectively, I think you'd have more of a leg to stand on in terms of saying there was no way we could have made a trade to move up. 

fwiw, I think Charlotte was incredibly stupid.  they're going to be hard-pressed to make the playoffs next year regardless of what Kaminsky does.  would have been better to take our top 3 picks this year and a future first (hopefully not a Nets pick) and they could have had Portis, Hunter and Mickey all this year with another future pick.  I would guarantee that within 2 years, that trio would be paying bigger dividends for Charlotte than Frank the Tank.

[tankcity!]

If I recall correctly you were onboard with the playoff push.

yeah and I still am.  Amir Johnson was the prize.  I don't think we could have gotten him for 12 mil otherwise.  The playoffs ceiled it. 

That and brad probably is a step closer to returning to the ncaa if we hadn't made some progress.

First, you're being sarcastic about Amir Johnson which I would be okay with if it was actually funny. If you're going to be sarcastic, at least be funny. You can't keep repeating the same joke.

Second, I get that you hate your life and the celtics are the only thing you have. But just because things didn't fall the way you wanted them to doesn't mean you should take it out on the posters who didn't realize the true value of missing the playoffs. Ainge is the one who decided to take this route (Thomas trade, etc.), fans are just backing him. If you have a problem with it, then complain about Ainge instead of the misinformed posters who are just trying to enjoy being a fan.

[celticsclay]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

Come on man. Can you please stop posting links to your old threads? It just makes us look bad as a whole as celtics fans. Nobody wants to see what one particular poster wrote in March. Furthermore, try to think about this, if everyone did this, what would the board be like? Can you imagine how horrible this board would be if all the regular posters constantly included their old links and predictions about things? That would just be a mess.

Clay check out the thread. It was written when we were a half game above the 9th worst record with only a couple weeks to go.  The entire debate was on whether or not it was worth it to make the playoffs and get stuck picking 15/16.  It's extremely relevant to this conversation. We knew the repercussions of making the playoffs.  We knew we couldn't trade up to #9.   The nail couldn't have possibly been hit harder on the head.  Considering we tried giving up 4 first round draft picks to move up from 15 to 9 (and failed), it's interesting to look back on that discussion.  We are echoing a debate we had before our little two week run played us out of a lotto pick... Except now we have proof of how much that draft pick gap actually is.

I was on board with the playoff push though.  Getting Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year made it all worth it.

You have posted it several times. I have already seen it. That is part of my point. Its obnoxious.

[LarBrd33]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

Come on man. Can you please stop posting links to your old threads? It just makes us look bad as a whole as celtics fans. Nobody wants to see what one particular poster wrote in March. Furthermore, try to think about this, if everyone did this, what would the board be like? Can you imagine how horrible this board would be if all the regular posters constantly included their old links and predictions about things? That would just be a mess.

Clay check out the thread. It was written when we were a half game above the 9th worst record with only a couple weeks to go.  The entire debate was on whether or not it was worth it to make the playoffs and get stuck picking 15/16.  It's extremely relevant to this conversation. We knew the repercussions of making the playoffs.  We knew we couldn't trade up to #9.   The nail couldn't have possibly been hit harder on the head.  Considering we tried giving up 4 first round draft picks to move up from 15 to 9 (and failed), it's interesting to look back on that discussion.  We are echoing a debate we had before our little two week run played us out of a lotto pick... Except now we have proof of how much that draft pick gap actually is.

I was on board with the playoff push though.  Getting Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year made it all worth it.

You have posted it several times. I have already seen it. That is part of my point. Its obnoxious.

The bulk of this debate was already made weeks before the end of the season. That's part of my point.  If we are going to rehash some oldies, let's rehash some oldies.

[D.o.s.]

Challenge Accepted.

RAJON RONDO IS BETTER THAN CHRIS PAUL!

[LarBrd33]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

Come on man. Can you please stop posting links to your old threads? It just makes us look bad as a whole as celtics fans. Nobody wants to see what one particular poster wrote in March. Furthermore, try to think about this, if everyone did this, what would the board be like? Can you imagine how horrible this board would be if all the regular posters constantly included their old links and predictions about things? That would just be a mess.

Clay check out the thread. It was written when we were a half game above the 9th worst record with only a couple weeks to go.  The entire debate was on whether or not it was worth it to make the playoffs and get stuck picking 15/16.  It's extremely relevant to this conversation. We knew the repercussions of making the playoffs.  We knew we couldn't trade up to #9.   The nail couldn't have possibly been hit harder on the head.  Considering we tried giving up 4 first round draft picks to move up from 15 to 9 (and failed), it's interesting to look back on that discussion.  We are echoing a debate we had before our little two week run played us out of a lotto pick... Except now we have proof of how much that draft pick gap actually is.

I was on board with the playoff push though.  Getting Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year made it all worth it.

I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it.  I think if Charlotte was run by someone with a clue (i.e. not Michael Jordan) that deal would have been more than enough to get #9.   think about it, who in their right mind in an NBA front office would be that zoned in on Frank Kaminsky that they'd turn down that offer? 

It's not like Charlotte was zoned in on a guy that was projected to have serious upside like Winslow or Turner.  Jordan just had a mad-on for the guy most likely to contribute next year even though there's likely to be several players taken after him that turn out to be better players. 

If we were trying to make the deal with either Miami or Indy who took Winslow and Turner respectively, I think you'd have more of a leg to stand on in terms of saying there was no way we could have made a trade to move up. 

fwiw, I think Charlotte was incredibly stupid.  they're going to be hard-pressed to make the playoffs next year regardless of what Kaminsky does.  would have been better to take our top 3 picks this year and a future first (hopefully not a Nets pick) and they could have had Portis, Hunter and Mickey all this year with another future pick.  I would guarantee that within 2 years, that trio would be paying bigger dividends for Charlotte than Frank the Tank.

if we had to offer 15, 16, an unprotected brooklyn pick and another 1st just to consider moving up to #9, id say it's pretty clear cut.  Making the playoffs hurt our draft pick, but we knew that would happen back on March 26th when some here suggested it would be impossible to move into the top 10.   It was a fun couple weeks tho for those who were watching.

[slamtheking]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

You saw it as the Cavs flipping the switch; I saw it as the Celtics lacking poise and letting winnable games slip away in the third quarter.

I saw it as a bit of each. 

The notion that the Cavs weren't trying is a misperception.  They came out to start each game playing with effort to try to put the games away early.  The C's played with the effort needed that pushed the Cavs to 'flip the switch' each game.  none were a cakewalk for the Cavs and if the C's had more poise they wouldn't have been big holes early and could have made more progress in the score when making their comeback efforts.

I think Johnson and Lee will help in that regard.  C's really need a PG that can ball handle and pass under pressure because we sure don't have one now.  if Rondo's contributions went unappreciated before then, his skill set was sorely missed in that regard in the playoffs. 

[tankcity!]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

In it I sum up two camps:

Some would argue that there's not a ton of difference between #9 and #15.

Others will argue that #15 + #26 wouldn't get you a Top 10 pick in this draft... and that having the #9 pick, based on the draft tiers, would be far more valuable than having the #15... so much so that it outweighs a pointless playoff exercise. 

Guess we found out which side was right.

Here are a couple of examples of you just being plain wrong.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=72469.30

This is what you thought Rondo was worth, and you were just plain wrong.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=71996.45

Obviously, I could keep going, but you get the point.

[slamtheking]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

Come on man. Can you please stop posting links to your old threads? It just makes us look bad as a whole as celtics fans. Nobody wants to see what one particular poster wrote in March. Furthermore, try to think about this, if everyone did this, what would the board be like? Can you imagine how horrible this board would be if all the regular posters constantly included their old links and predictions about things? That would just be a mess.

Clay check out the thread. It was written when we were a half game above the 9th worst record with only a couple weeks to go.  The entire debate was on whether or not it was worth it to make the playoffs and get stuck picking 15/16.  It's extremely relevant to this conversation. We knew the repercussions of making the playoffs.  We knew we couldn't trade up to #9.   The nail couldn't have possibly been hit harder on the head.  Considering we tried giving up 4 first round draft picks to move up from 15 to 9 (and failed), it's interesting to look back on that discussion.  We are echoing a debate we had before our little two week run played us out of a lotto pick... Except now we have proof of how much that draft pick gap actually is.

I was on board with the playoff push though.  Getting Amir Johnson for 12 mil a year made it all worth it.

I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it.  I think if Charlotte was run by someone with a clue (i.e. not Michael Jordan) that deal would have been more than enough to get #9.   think about it, who in their right mind in an NBA front office would be that zoned in on Frank Kaminsky that they'd turn down that offer? 

It's not like Charlotte was zoned in on a guy that was projected to have serious upside like Winslow or Turner.  Jordan just had a mad-on for the guy most likely to contribute next year even though there's likely to be several players taken after him that turn out to be better players. 

If we were trying to make the deal with either Miami or Indy who took Winslow and Turner respectively, I think you'd have more of a leg to stand on in terms of saying there was no way we could have made a trade to move up. 

fwiw, I think Charlotte was incredibly stupid.  they're going to be hard-pressed to make the playoffs next year regardless of what Kaminsky does.  would have been better to take our top 3 picks this year and a future first (hopefully not a Nets pick) and they could have had Portis, Hunter and Mickey all this year with another future pick.  I would guarantee that within 2 years, that trio would be paying bigger dividends for Charlotte than Frank the Tank.

if we had to offer 15, 16, an unprotected brooklyn pick and another 1st just to consider moving up to #9, id say it's pretty clear cut.  Making the playoffs hurt our draft pick, but we knew that would happen back on March 26th when some here suggested it would be impossible to move into the top 10.   It was a fun couple weeks tho for those who were watching.

that's your opinion.  I disagree with it. 

I think who you're trying to trade with is very relevant to the discussion.  In a vacuum, a trade of 15, 16, 28 and a future first would be enough to jump 6 places.  more than enough when looking back at previous draft trades.   What can't be ignored is Jordan's insistence on taking Kaminsky.  Ignoring the picks aspect, if Jordan had a brain, he probably could have gotten Danny to offer up AB, KO or both with 16 and 28.  That addresses Charlotte's SG needs, shooting bigman needs (KO is what they're lucky Kaminsky will become) and pick up 2 prospects, which as I previously projected could have been Portis and Hunter -- 2 players that have looked good this summer. 

[LarBrd33]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

In it I sum up two camps:

Some would argue that there's not a ton of difference between #9 and #15.

Others will argue that #15 + #26 wouldn't get you a Top 10 pick in this draft... and that having the #9 pick, based on the draft tiers, would be far more valuable than having the #15... so much so that it outweighs a pointless playoff exercise. 

Guess we found out which side was right.

Here are a couple of examples of you just being plain wrong.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=72469.30

This is what you thought Rondo was worth, and you were just plain wrong.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=71996.45

Obviously, I could keep going, but you get the point.

Lol the irony of your examples is that I wasn't wrong in either

#1 - "if we stand pat, I think we are a 24-33 win team"... We didn't stand pat

#2 - "I'd do it for mclemore and their unprotected 2015 and 2017 picks" ... Heck yes I would have traded rondo for that.  I wish that had been possible.

Meanwhile, in the post I linked to, I was actually on board with the playoff push.  Based on the results, it's fair to say I was wrong about that stance... Unless you agree that amir Johnson wouldn't have taken 12 mil from us otherwise.

[celticsclay]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

In it I sum up two camps:

Some would argue that there's not a ton of difference between #9 and #15.

Others will argue that #15 + #26 wouldn't get you a Top 10 pick in this draft... and that having the #9 pick, based on the draft tiers, would be far more valuable than having the #15... so much so that it outweighs a pointless playoff exercise. 

Guess we found out which side was right.

Here are a couple of examples of you just being plain wrong.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=72469.30

This is what you thought Rondo was worth, and you were just plain wrong.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=71996.45

Obviously, I could keep going, but you get the point.

Lol the irony of your examples is that I wasn't wrong in either

#1 - "if we stand pat, I think we are a 24-33 win team"... We didn't stand pat

#2 - "I'd do it for mclemore and their unprotected 2015 and 2017 picks" ... Heck yes I would have traded rondo for that.  I wish that had been possible.

Meanwhile, in the post I linked to, I was actually on board with the playoff push.  Based on the results, it's fair to say I was wrong about that stance... Unless you agree that amir Johnson wouldn't have taken 12 mil from us otherwise.

there was a whole thread with crows in it if i recall. A bit of an echo chamber it was.

[tankcity!]

I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

In it I sum up two camps:

Some would argue that there's not a ton of difference between #9 and #15.

Others will argue that #15 + #26 wouldn't get you a Top 10 pick in this draft... and that having the #9 pick, based on the draft tiers, would be far more valuable than having the #15... so much so that it outweighs a pointless playoff exercise. 

Guess we found out which side was right.

Here are a couple of examples of you just being plain wrong.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=72469.30

This is what you thought Rondo was worth, and you were just plain wrong.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=71996.45

Obviously, I could keep going, but you get the point.

Lol the irony of your examples is that I wasn't wrong in either

#1 - "if we stand pat, I think we are a 24-33 win team"... We didn't stand pat

#2 - "I'd do it for mclemore and their unprotected 2015 and 2017 picks" ... Heck yes I would have traded rondo for that.  I wish that had been possible.

Meanwhile, in the post I linked to, I was actually on board with the playoff push.  Based on the results, it's fair to say I was wrong about that stance... Unless you agree that amir Johnson wouldn't have taken 12 mil from us otherwise.

Yeah, I don't agree. Your Amir Johnson point is a stupid one. No one else offered him 12 million. that is why he is here. But you already know that so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. And your stance on the record prediction is lame. Stop being a weasel and just admit you were wrong. Or, I'll just dig up something else you were wrong about.

When the Rondo and Green trade happened, you didn't predict the Celtics making the playoffs. That is a fact, so again, stop playing games and just admit you were wrong like the rest of us. I thought they were going to suck after those trades, at least I'm man enough to admit it. This is the reason why people get upset with you on this board. You act like a debater on ESPN.

Just being honest bro, cause i have no ill feelings toward you, but I thought it was lame of you to post historical threads and embarrass other posters. You can't expect them to know as much as you. It's called having a life.

[D.o.s.]

^weird.

On topic: I think pretty much everyone agrees that Kaminsky was a bad pick at #9?

[Rondo9]

You know reading the article, I still don't understand why people kept feeling that the Cavs were in chill mode, because every game was pretty close.

According to several people here the games weren't even close either, i.e. their observations didn't fit with their preconceived notions of what was going to happen in the series, so they warped the semantics of the word "close." 

Well, it wasn't close in that Boston had much of a chance to win but it was close in that Cleveland had to play pretty hard and pretty well for each victory.

Mike

This is a good distinction. The Cavaliers definitely couldn't mail in those games like the two we won at the end of the season, but the Celtics were never really threatening to win any of them.

I think if you want to further bottom line it, you could simply say we were swept. Was it a massive bloodletting every game? No, but come on. We were swept. We couldn't even win one of the games at home with the other team taking it easy with a 2-0 and 3-0 series lead.

Taking it easy? Their best players played 40 minutes.