John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?

[Eddie20]

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

?

But yeah, I agree he was an excellent player. Extremely smart, average shooter though.

[jarufu]

Stockton was one of my favorite players growing up and I patterned a lot of my game after him (that inside-hand scoop layup is a lifesaver for a smaller PG). 

Dude was absolutely incredible - his problem historically is that his skill was in being ridiculously consistent, durable, and efficient.  None of which translate well to highlight reels.  I've always felt he was better than Isiah, and closer to Magic than he gets credit for. 

In addition to the passing and game management, Stockton was a great outside shooter (52% career FG% while shooting a lot of jumpers), tremendous clutch player, even a good defender, especially off the ball (check his ridiculous lead in all-time steals too).  Unfortunately he's already being forgotten, because he didn't make many spectacular plays and, like so many others, couldn't beat Jordan for a ring.

Stockton was also a personal favourite growing up .. alas, I had no game to replicate him so I just settled for short shorts instead  !  The Jazz were (are) my "other" team because of him ..

I'd bet you could insert Stockton into an NBA team today and he'd still play 82 games!

[alajet]

I had read something a few years ago where someone who was at or near the scorers table of Home Jazz games said his stats were skewed up.  And I think if you look at his home/away splits for assists.

Irregardless, Stockton was a fantastic distributor and managed the game very well.

There's a slight bump in terms of his assists at home, but it's not a huge one.  For his career, he averaged 11.2 assists per game at home, and 10.4 assists per game away.  Compare that to Rondo, who to date has a 8.7 home vs. 7.3 road career assists per game split.

John Stockton was an amazing player.  For whatever reason, he's become underrated, despite being the league's all-time leader in both assists and steals.  I think that's probably a combination of him not being overly athletic, playing beside another all-time great in Malone, and not winning a title or MVP.  There's no question, though, that he's an all-time great.

  I always thought of Stockton as always great but rarely spectacular. He was very consistent, remarkably so. But while people complain that Rondo doesn't always find that extra gear in the playoffs, Stockton didn't really have that extra gear.

It's natural for people to get a bit annoyed at the fact that Rondo does not step up his game to his highest level at times. However, his standard statline is pretty much what you would expect from an elite point guard, so, it's not easy to complain.

While I hate the "he had Malone" argument.  One thing that probably did help a lot is how Stockton and Malone's careers lined up.

Look at a guy like Rondo at the start of his career, playing with Pierce, Allen, and Garnett at the end of their careers.  Rondo would probably be putting up even better numbers if Pierce was 25/26 (or Allen or Garnett was 25/26).

Or it could be like that right now in OKC with Westbrook and Durant (if Westbrook was a pass first guy).  Same age, drafted one year apart.  They should be hitting their primes at the same time.  This is what happened with Stockton and Malone.

Also not only did the Stockton/Malone combo line up perfectly career-wise, but they both had incredible health.

In 18 seasons together, they played in 1,422 games together, out of total of 1,444.  That's 98.5%.  Rondo has missed more games over the last season and a half than Stockton missed in his entire 19 year career.  Same thing with Pierce (or Allen or Garnett...).

Stockton basically never missed a game (over 19 seasons), and the primary scorer he played with never missed a game either for the 18 years they played together.  That definitely helps.

Those ratio in games played/missed is inexplicable. While Rondo hasn't had any real threatening injuries in his relatively young career, I can't expect same kind of consistency from him, possibly because of his aggressive style going towards the basket at times. There was an argument a couple of years back that I've read somewhere. The point was whether Rondo's style was risky injury-wise. I don't buy into that argument immediately, but still, it may need further consideration.

[Roy H.]

I always thought of Stockton as always great but rarely spectacular. He was very consistent, remarkably so. But while people complain that Rondo doesn't always find that extra gear in the playoffs, Stockton didn't really have that extra gear.

If Rondo consistently played at Stockton's level, I don't think anybody would be complaining.  You don't need an extra gear when you're John Stockton.

I mean, Michael Jordan didn't have an extra gear.  Larry Bird didn't, either.  These are guys who were just consistently great, night in and night out.  Everyone has poor games, but 9 out of 10 games, you knew what you were going to get from Stockton or Jordan or Bird.

With Rondo, for his career he's been such a mixed bag.  What you call an extra gear is what separates him from being an all-time great.  If he could play consistently at a superstar level, nobody would be calling him out.  The good news is, Rondo seems to be achieving that night in, night out consistency recently.

[incoherent]

I love Stockton. I always tell people he's my favorite all time player. Getting it done on both sides of the court.

Stock's opponents hated him for a reason. He created more points, and took away more points, then any player ever will (most likely).

Sad he doesnt have a ring..

[pearljammer10]

I mean Stockton was amazing, there really isnt any other way to put it...



But what was even more amazing than Stocktons game play was his shorts.

[BballTim]

I always thought of Stockton as always great but rarely spectacular. He was very consistent, remarkably so. But while people complain that Rondo doesn't always find that extra gear in the playoffs, Stockton didn't really have that extra gear.

If Rondo consistently played at Stockton's level, I don't think anybody would be complaining.  You don't need an extra gear when you're John Stockton.

I mean, Michael Jordan didn't have an extra gear.  Larry Bird didn't, either.  These are guys who were just consistently great, night in and night out.  Everyone has poor games, but 9 out of 10 games, you knew what you were going to get from Stockton or Jordan or Bird.

With Rondo, for his career he's been such a mixed bag.  What you call an extra gear is what separates him from being an all-time great.  If he could play consistently at a superstar level, nobody would be calling him out.  The good news is, Rondo seems to be achieving that night in, night out consistency recently.

  That extra gear is the main reason that Thomas has rings and Stockton doesn't. Again, when you talk about Rondo being a mixed bag, keep in mind that Rondo (when healthy) is pretty consistent and that Stockton, at Rondo's age, was in his first year as a starter and a year away from his first all-star game. If you made him a starter from the beginning of his career and chopped off his career at the age of 26 he'd be seen as far below Rondo as a player.

[xmuscularghandix]

Players with 1,000+ assist seasons:

Kevin Porter ('79)

Isiah Thomas ('85)

John Stockton ('88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 94, 95)

[Roy H.]

 That extra gear is the main reason that Thomas has rings and Stockton doesn't.

I don't think that's accurate.  I'd say it has more to do with the qualities of the supporting casts and the fact that Jordan hadn't quite reached his prime when he met the Pistons in the playoffs, whereas he was firmly in his prime against the Jazz.  Thomas' season and playoff averages are virtually identical in the Pistons' championship seasons.

[Chelm]

 That extra gear is the main reason that Thomas has rings and Stockton doesn't.

I don't think that's accurate.  I'd say it has more to do with the qualities of the supporting casts and the fact that Jordan hadn't quite reached his prime when he met the Pistons in the playoffs, whereas he was firmly in his prime against the Jazz.  Thomas' season and playoff averages are virtually identical in the Pistons' championship seasons.

Agreed.  I've always felt that the idea of an extra gear really just means the player hadn't been giving his all in all of the other games.  It's just a matter of perspective.

[BballTim]

 That extra gear is the main reason that Thomas has rings and Stockton doesn't.

I don't think that's accurate.  I'd say it has more to do with the qualities of the supporting casts and the fact that Jordan hadn't quite reached his prime when he met the Pistons in the playoffs, whereas he was firmly in his prime against the Jazz.  Thomas' season and playoff averages are virtually identical in the Pistons' championship seasons.

  Thomas was frequently the best player on the court, much more often than Stockton. He could also take over games in ways that Stockton rarely did.

[TitleMaster]

The real problem was that Stockton's game was a bit too canned.

The Jazz story goes this time ... Malone passes off to Stockton. Malone then shakes off his defender. Stockton passes the ball back to Malone. Malone takes the shot and scores. If Malone isn't open, John passes it off to Hornacek. Well, that's the secret of Stockton's assist record.

All and all, the way for a smart opponent to take advantage of that is to either get Malone in foul trouble (see D. Rodman on how that's done) or when Malone first passes off to Stockton, isolate Stockton so that he can only find the weakest Jazz player open, like an Ostertag.

I think the flaw in this team is that the Karl Malone should be been more the playmaker and less the finisher. Thus, kinda split the role between the two stars than in making their game plan obvious from the get-go.

[Roy H.]

 That extra gear is the main reason that Thomas has rings and Stockton doesn't.

I don't think that's accurate.  I'd say it has more to do with the qualities of the supporting casts and the fact that Jordan hadn't quite reached his prime when he met the Pistons in the playoffs, whereas he was firmly in his prime against the Jazz.  Thomas' season and playoff averages are virtually identical in the Pistons' championship seasons.

  Thomas was frequently the best player on the court, much more often than Stockton. He could also take over games in ways that Stockton rarely did.

Okay, so is your argument now that Thomas is better than Stockton?  Because that seems to be what you're arguing.  That's different than having a higher gear.

[scaryjerry]

While I hate the "he had Malone" argument.  One thing that probably did help a lot is how Stockton and Malone's careers lined up.

Look at a guy like Rondo at the start of his career, playing with Pierce, Allen, and Garnett at the end of their careers.  Rondo would probably be putting up even better numbers if Pierce was 25/26 (or Allen or Garnett was 25/26).

Or it could be like that right now in OKC with Westbrook and Durant (if Westbrook was a pass first guy).  Same age, drafted one year apart.  They should be hitting their primes at the same time.  This is what happened with Stockton and Malone.

Also not only did the Stockton/Malone combo line up perfectly career-wise, but they both had incredible health.

In 18 seasons together, they played in 1,422 games together, out of total of 1,444.  That's 98.5%.  Rondo has missed more games over the last season and a half than Stockton missed in his entire 19 year career.  Same thing with Pierce (or Allen or Garnett...).

Stockton basically never missed a game (over 19 seasons), and the primary scorer he played with never missed a game either for the 18 years they played together.  That definitely helps.

You hate the he had malone argument yet sum it up to a tee.
John Stockton Played with the 2nd leading scorer in NBA history through their primes and most of his career, which one helped the other more? tough to say
Honestly through his first 3+ seasons his stats looked nearly identical to rondos through his first 3+ but then took a jump rondo hasnt quite taken yet after that...he was also expected to score more and had the best big man finisher the game has almost ever seen to pass to in his freakish athletic prime

[Kane3387]

Stockton was a brilliant player and arguably the greatest PG ever. Almost anyone will take Magic and I would, but even Magic admits he is in the discussion.

Gary Payton is also arguably the greatest defensive pg ever and he says his toughest matchup without question was Stockton. See below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo


Also you have to really respect the way Stockton got his job done when he was undersized, slow, and literally had no athleticism. He may be the only player in the modern NBA to play and not be able to dunk.