"The Celtics are learning to deal with their own mortality."

[nickagneta]

That quote is courtesy of Jackie MacMullen who was being interviewed on Sports Tonight. When asked if LeBron was right about being bored, Jackie went into a pretty significant denial of LeBron's comments. She said that when she was in the locker room after much of their losses where the Celtics had blown leads that the tone was anger and exasperation. She said if they were bored there would have been more of an apathetic attitude.

She said the problem with the Celtics this year and the reason they have taken so long to get it together is because after being hurt or banged up and coming back and realizing that their bodies don't heal like they used to or that they can't regain what they once had as quickly the Celtics tried to push it too much. They had to come to grips with aging bodies and elevation and explosion that isn't there all the time.

"The Celtics are learning to deal with their own mortality."

That was an exact quote with the rest being mostly paraphrasing. But I think she's absolutely right. She mentioned Paul Pierce coming out and now stating that he did indeed come back too soon and that Chauncey Billups, who was in constant contact with KG this year, derided KG for coming back as soon as he did and not taking more time off.

This team is starting to realize their new limitations and how to play within them and how those new limits effect the other players around them. Ray is starting to realize he isn't always going to have it as a three point shooter but when he does he has to shoot it and when he doesn't he has to create points elsewhere. KG has to realize that he can't elevate like he used to as often as he used to and preserve that explosion for certain times and use his body more in boxing out. Pierce has to learn just how much explosion he has left and harness it accordingly to make him as dangerous as he can.

It's about knowing they are older and more limited and learning to maximize their games within those limitations. Less intelligent and savy veterans could spend years fighting their way through these things but our Big Three are doing it in less than half a season. I think that bodes well for this team as instead of trying to find old chemistry and replicate it, they are making new chemistry that can be molded around their new limitations and using that knowledge to extract more of what they need as a team from the others they play with.

The more I think about it, coming to grips with the mortality of your athletic life so quickly and succeeding in transforming themselves, the more impressed I am and the more credit I give them as Hall of Famers and Doc as a coach that allowed them the time and patience and had the trust in them to do so in the span of one half season.

If this team wins it all, I think all three will cement their place in Celtic lore as one of the greatest Celtics teams over an era ever. To do something like that so quickly in today's NBA and come away a champion is something special indeed.

[KCattheStripe]

That quote is courtesy of Jackie MacMullen who was being interviewed on Sports Tonight. When asked if LeBron was right about being bored, Jackie went into a pretty significant denial of LeBron's comments. She said that when she was in the locker room after much of their losses where the Celtics had blown leads that the tone was anger and exasperation. She said if they were bored there would have been more of an apathetic attitude.

She said the problem with the Celtics this year and the reason they have taken so long to get it together is because after being hurt or banged up and coming back and realizing that their bodies don't heal like they used to or that they can't regain what they once had as quickly the Celtics tried to push it too much. They had to come to grips with aging bodies and elevation and explosion that isn't there all the time.

"The Celtics are learning to deal with their own mortality."

That was an exact quote with the rest being mostly paraphrasing. But I think she's absolutely right. She mentioned Paul Pierce coming out and now stating that he did indeed come back too soon and that Chauncey Billups, who was in constant contact with KG this year, derided KG for coming back as soon as he did and not taking more time off.

This team is starting to realize their new limitations and how to play within them and how those new limits effect the other players around them. Ray is starting to realize he isn't always going to have it as a three point shooter but when he does he has to shoot it and when he doesn't he has to create points elsewhere. KG has to realize that he can't elevate like he used to as often as he used to and preserve that explosion for certain times and use his body more in boxing out. Pierce has to learn just how much explosion he has left and harness it accordingly to make him as dangerous as he can.

It's about knowing they are older and more limited and learning to maximize their games within those limitations. Less intelligent and savy veterans could spend years fighting their way through these things but our Big Three are doing it in less than half a season. I think that bodes well for this team as instead of trying to find old chemistry and replicate it, they are making new chemistry that can be molded around their new limitations and using that knowledge to extract more of what they need as a team from the others they play with.

The more I think about it, coming to grips with the mortality of your athletic life so quickly and succeeding in transforming themselves, the more impressed I am and the more credit I give them as Hall of Famers and Doc as a coach that allowed them the time and patience and had the trust in them to do so in the span of one half season.

If this team wins it all, I think all three will cement their place in Celtic lore as one of the greatest Celtics teams over an era ever. To do something like that so quickly in today's NBA and come away a champion is something special indeed.

God you talk a lot. TP.

[CelticG1]

TP as well. The best part was her talking about how Chauncey says that KG looks good and that he thinks he is still going to get better and that we haven't seen what he is going to be able to do. Something along those lines at least. Maybe he has a little more inside info than the rest of us.

[nickagneta]

TP as well. The best part was her talking about how Chauncey says that KG looks good and that he thinks he is still going to get better and that we haven't seen what he is going to be able to do. Something along those lines at least. Maybe he has a little more inside info than the rest of us.

TP. I forgot about that part. That was also very encouraging.

And yeah, Jackie is a very well connected basketball journalist and she is one of the people who, when they start talking about this team, I listen.

[FallGuy]

That quote is courtesy of Jackie MacMullen who was being interviewed on Sports Tonight. When asked if LeBron was right about being bored, Jackie went into a pretty significant denial of LeBron's comments. She said that when she was in the locker room after much of their losses where the Celtics had blown leads that the tone was anger and exasperation. She said if they were bored there would have been more of an apathetic attitude.

She said the problem with the Celtics this year and the reason they have taken so long to get it together is because after being hurt or banged up and coming back and realizing that their bodies don't heal like they used to or that they can't regain what they once had as quickly the Celtics tried to push it too much. They had to come to grips with aging bodies and elevation and explosion that isn't there all the time.

"The Celtics are learning to deal with their own mortality."

That was an exact quote with the rest being mostly paraphrasing. But I think she's absolutely right. She mentioned Paul Pierce coming out and now stating that he did indeed come back too soon and that Chauncey Billups, who was in constant contact with KG this year, derided KG for coming back as soon as he did and not taking more time off.

This team is starting to realize their new limitations and how to play within them and how those new limits effect the other players around them. Ray is starting to realize he isn't always going to have it as a three point shooter but when he does he has to shoot it and when he doesn't he has to create points elsewhere. KG has to realize that he can't elevate like he used to as often as he used to and preserve that explosion for certain times and use his body more in boxing out. Pierce has to learn just how much explosion he has left and harness it accordingly to make him as dangerous as he can.

It's about knowing they are older and more limited and learning to maximize their games within those limitations. Less intelligent and savy veterans could spend years fighting their way through these things but our Big Three are doing it in less than half a season. I think that bodes well for this team as instead of trying to find old chemistry and replicate it, they are making new chemistry that can be molded around their new limitations and using that knowledge to extract more of what they need as a team from the others they play with.

The more I think about it, coming to grips with the mortality of your athletic life so quickly and succeeding in transforming themselves, the more impressed I am and the more credit I give them as Hall of Famers and Doc as a coach that allowed them the time and patience and had the trust in them to do so in the span of one half season.

If this team wins it all, I think all three will cement their place in Celtic lore as one of the greatest Celtics teams over an era ever. To do something like that so quickly in today's NBA and come away a champion is something special indeed.

TP for you sir.

And a good reminder of what is so obviously true. This team has NOT been mailing it in, waiting for the playoffs, or bored with "meaningless games". They have been trying hard, running short on gas, and essentially dealing with (say it again kids) AGE and DECLINE. That they might come out the other side of that is encouraging indeed.

[GreenFaith1819]

Thanks for post Nick and TP for you.

I guess I was wrong about thinking that they were bored during that rough stretch.

Well, the good thing is that they are hitting their stride now..the past is just that. They are getting their momentum and Health back at the right time.

11 more games, C's! And one more with Lebron and the gang..

This team will do well in the playoffs and Finals..two to three days between games..they're fully healthy now..it's starting to come together now!

[Drucci]

TP Nick, great post and analysis. I agree with you. It hurts to see our stars get older and getting "weaker" since they can't do what they used to do anymore, or in much more limited stints.

On the other hand, KG, Paul and Ray are all consumate pro and smart players who know how to adapt and adjust their games for the good of the team so it's also quite interesting to see them evolve into different roles as they age.

I'm really looking forward to see what this team will do in the playoffs but I'm confident.

[Bahku]

Great post, Nick (TP) ... and I have to just add that I personally don't think they're in as much decline as some, (like Jackie), might think. Yes, they are older and at their ages it takes increasingly more time to recover from injuries, but they're also, (especially in KG and Paul's case), still not 100% from their most recent maladies.

It's possible that they may never be 100% of what they were before they were hurt, but I don't think they're at the age where that's the case. Every game I see they look a little better than the one before, and I personally believe that within the near future they will be very close, (if not thoroughly), to the point they were before.

They are certainly beyond their physical peaks, but I just don't think that they're at the point where we need to haul out the "inevitable decline" excuse ... I think by the end of the regular season that they will surprise a lot of people, including us, and possibly even themselves.

[Rondo_is_better]

That really was great. TP. I agree with everything you said.

[nickagneta]

Great post, Nick (TP) ... and I have to just add that I personally don't think they're in as much decline as some, (like Jackie), might think. Yes, they are older and at their ages it takes increasingly more time to recover from injuries, but they're also, (especially in KG and Paul's case), still not 100% from their most recent maladies.

It's possible that they may never be 100% of what they were before they were hurt, but I don't think they're at the age where that's the case. Every game I see they look a little better than the one before, and I personally believe that within the near future they will be very close, (if not thoroughly), to the point they were before.

They are certainly beyond their physical peaks, but I just don't think that they're at the point where we need to haul out the "inevitable decline" excuse ... I think by the end of the regular season that they will surprise a lot of people, including us, and possibly even themselves.

Excellently written and TP4U.

Though their age isn't up there as of yet, I think one thing that we as a fan base have to start paying attention to across the league is not age as players decline but overall minutes played. With players coming into the league earlier and earlier and the playoffs become longer and longer than they have been in past years, I think the toll on players bodies from a career in the NBA will be occurring at a younger age.

KG has already played in over 44000 NBA minutes including the playoffs. For Ray Allen that number is over 40500 and for Pierce, 35500. KG is already 19th all-time in minutes played. Ray 39th and Paul 85th. In comparison, Dan Issel is next in line for KG to pass in the career minutes played list and he was 37 years old when he hit that milestone, not 33. Ray is approaching Derek Harper on the minutes played list and he was 37 when he played his last minute, not 34. Just around the corner for Pierce to pass on the minutes played list is Eddie Jones and Dave Bing who were 36 and 35 when they retired not 32, like Paul.

With the advent of 18 and 19 year olds entering the league, the league is seeing the first complete generation of those basketball players reach their early and mid 30's and it's going to be important to see if entering the NBA and going through the wear and tear of NBA basketball at a younger age, takes years off the back end of careers. Could this be happening with our older players? Who knows but KG started playing at 19 and Paul and Ray at 21 whereas in years past almost all NBA players didn't start an NBA career until 22 or 23, so what happens with this generation will be telling for future generations to come.

Remember, one of the big arguments for letting players into the league younger has been that they get to earn more during their NBA career as a total because they get to play more years. But if years played ends up becoming a fallacy because it is really minutes played that matter, maybe more and more great players will stay in school or maybe Stern will use that information in getting his age minimum pushed up higher once again.

[wiley]

nice topic...

Regarding KG, I have yet to understand why the word decline has been attached to his name....To me, anyone talking about KG's "decline" is basically someone who doesn't believe that his knee was all that screwed up.  Either that, or they've never played sports and think that knees are only mildly important.

People talk about all the miles KG has put in in supporting their decline diagnosis....but we're talking about KG, one of the biggest energizer bunnies to ever grace a court.  He was going along fine and the knee took him out, at which point he started to REST far more than he ever has or has wanted.......Does an energizer bunny who takes a good long rest suddenly turn into an old fart because he's 34 and not 33?

With KG, it's all about the knee.

Of course, injuries are more likely at a later age, and I am a believer in age-appropriate minutes, and taking a night off here and there.  But that's not reflective of decline either.  That's just common sense.... I also believe a GM can say, okay, he's playing fine but he's 34, so I'm trading him.  That's also not decline, but common sense (depending on immediate goals of that team).

I've worried about possible decline with Paul because he's spoken about being tired, and looked tired on many occasions, but his recent play is suggesting Paul's issue is also more about overcoming injury than big bad, ugly decline....

Let's separate injuries from decline, guys.  Is Greg Oden in decline?  We may, in fact, not get a chance to judge whether KG declines due this knee thing (looking good knock on wood).  Injury prevents sound analysis of an issue like decline.

KG just isn't the tired type.  And imo something like 70 percent of decline is tired....

Back to the thread, intelligence regarding their bodies could definitely extend the window of the big 3 via reducing injuries and staying un-tired.

[wiley]

And I do also believe total mintues played in a career, as Nick mentions above, does create the kind of tiredness that must be watched carefully.   You know, burnout is an actual real phenomenon that exist on both the mental and physical levels.....

[Bahku]

Great post, Nick (TP) ... and I have to just add that I personally don't think they're in as much decline as some, (like Jackie), might think. Yes, they are older and at their ages it takes increasingly more time to recover from injuries, but they're also, (especially in KG and Paul's case), still not 100% from their most recent maladies.

It's possible that they may never be 100% of what they were before they were hurt, but I don't think they're at the age where that's the case. Every game I see they look a little better than the one before, and I personally believe that within the near future they will be very close, (if not thoroughly), to the point they were before.

They are certainly beyond their physical peaks, but I just don't think that they're at the point where we need to haul out the "inevitable decline" excuse ... I think by the end of the regular season that they will surprise a lot of people, including us, and possibly even themselves.

Excellently written and TP4U.

Though their age isn't up there as of yet, I think one thing that we as a fan base have to start paying attention to across the league is not age as players decline but overall minutes played. With players coming into the league earlier and earlier and the playoffs become longer and longer than they have been in past years, I think the toll on players bodies from a career in the NBA will be occurring at a younger age.

KG has already played in over 44000 NBA minutes including the playoffs. For Ray Allen that number is over 40500 and for Pierce, 35500. KG is already 19th all-time in minutes played. Ray 39th and Paul 85th. In comparison, Dan Issel is next in line for KG to pass in the career minutes played list and he was 37 years old when he hit that milestone, not 33. Ray is approaching Derek Harper on the minutes played list and he was 37 when he played his last minute, not 34. Just around the corner for Pierce to pass on the minutes played list is Eddie Jones and Dave Bing who were 36 and 35 when they retired not 32, like Paul.

With the advent of 18 and 19 year olds entering the league, the league is seeing the first complete generation of those basketball players reach their early and mid 30's and it's going to be important to see if entering the NBA and going through the wear and tear of NBA basketball at a younger age, takes years off the back end of careers. Could this be happening with our older players? Who knows but KG started playing at 19 and Paul and Ray at 21 whereas in years past almost all NBA players didn't start an NBA career until 22 or 23, so what happens with this generation will be telling for future generations to come.

Remember, one of the big arguments for letting players into the league younger has been that they get to earn more during their NBA career as a total because they get to play more years. But if years played ends up becoming a fallacy because it is really minutes played that matter, maybe more and more great players will stay in school or maybe Stern will use that information in getting his age minimum pushed up higher once again.

Really great observations, Nick, and Wiley's as well, (TP) ... in fact, some of the best stuff I've seen written recently regarding age and the Celtics. It's going to be extremely interesting, (and ultimately of significant importance), to see what changes may or may not come about as this generation of "High School-To-NBA" players finish off their careers.

Your suggestion that the additional wear-and-tear and number of games played at the NBA level might affect (in raising) the minimum age required to enter the NBA, will likely be met with a moderate amount of criticism, but I for one would welcome it.

Watching college alum players like Rajon Rondo and the speed at which they mature into leaders on the court, is to me another example of why following that route is still a good decision. Is it the best decision for every player? Probably not, but it certainly seemed to be sufficient in the days before the change.

I wonder how guys like KG and Kobe and LeBron will feel about it ten or twenty years from now, when they can view the money versus substance/college experience question with a bit more objectivity. I wonder which path they'd advise their own children to take.

[nickagneta]

Wiley, I don't know how old you are but let me assure you aging has nothing to do with being tired when it comes to pro sports. It has to do with recovery times both from playing games and recovering from injuries. It has to do with muscle and tendons not having the same strength power and explosion they once had. It has to do with the body not responding to what the brain wants it to do. It has to do with an overall erosion of body, mind and skills.

Once NBA players get past the age of 31 to 32, on average, they begin to decline because they are past their peak physical performance and ability. Taking time off and playing fewer minutes helps to maximize those continuing to erode capabilities. And recovering from injures, injuries you are more prone to due to....well I'll let the doctors deal with explaining that....aging, is a part of aging and decline.

I think your view is a bit off if you think that the Big Three are not in decline in any way and are just recovering from injury. Personally I think both are occurring though in varying amounts for each player.

[nickagneta]

An addendum to wiley....you are right about the mental aspect of the wear and tear and that causing a mental "tiredness". Just wanted to point that out.