Author Topic: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker  (Read 5851 times)

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Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2023, 12:43:32 PM »

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What about Jaylen Brown for Lamelo?  Allows Charlotte to draft Scoot if desired at #2. 

I personally just want to run it back with our current squad, but if people think we need a full identity shake up I think Lamelo could provide that as well as anyone else out there.

Man, I am torn on LaMelo. I love watching him play but the idea of him in a playoff series scares me. Too undisciplined on offense and vulnerable on defense. His health bothers me too.

The guy is beautiful to watch though. I loved that team they had a few years ago with Hayward, LaMelo, Rozier and the backup guard DeVonte Graham. Four ball-handlers attacking from all angles and firing up 3s from all over the place. All passers. Rozier was the worst passer of the four. Ball pinging from side to side.

Seriously, how can one guy be both an exceptionally creative virtuoso and a clown at the same time.

The guy both delights and frustrates in equal meaure. No, not equal measure but dang it is a lot of frustration. Will he ever be commited to playing winning basketball? Or is he just an entertainer? A guy who likes the oohs and aahs but not has not time for the discipline needed to win.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2023, 12:47:49 PM »

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LaMelo TS% last 3 years

Rookie = 54%
2nd year = 55.4%
This year = 54%

It is not like he can't shoot. This is all shot selection. Not having the discipline to search for the best shot. Too much settling for contested jump-shots.

And there is just as much lack of discipline with his passing. Trying to force the spectacular when there is no need for spectacular. Play solid. Steph Curry is similar with his turnovers. Drives me nuts with Steph too. Take care of the ball!

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2023, 01:01:36 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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It’s great in theory but at the end of games the ball always runs through the J’s. That’s the bigger problem because neither guy particularly plays well off the ball. This team needs a system and structure to help them stop playing so stupid in the clutch. Mazzulla ball is not the answer.

I just made a post about this. Thats the crux of the whole issue here. Celtics don't have an offensive system they run.

its basically give the players to your stars and hope they make something happen every trip down the floor. That works sometimes, but its very easy to defend.

watch the warriors. they have stars but they run a movement based offense. It's not like curry and Thompson are standing around jacking up contested 3's.

Exactly -  summed up the problem perfectly.
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Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2023, 01:11:46 PM »

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It’s great in theory but at the end of games the ball always runs through the J’s. That’s the bigger problem because neither guy particularly plays well off the ball. This team needs a system and structure to help them stop playing so stupid in the clutch. Mazzulla ball is not the answer.

I just made a post about this. Thats the crux of the whole issue here. Celtics don't have an offensive system they run.

its basically give the players to your stars and hope they make something happen every trip down the floor. That works sometimes, but its very easy to defend.

watch the warriors. they have stars but they run a movement based offense. It's not like curry and Thompson are standing around jacking up contested 3's.

Exactly -  summed up the problem perfectly.

I also see this as a Jaylen problem and not just a coaching problem.

It is hard to build a balanced offense with lots of movement when your star player takes that many shot attempts and gives out such few number of assists.

When we look at similar players in terms of shot taking and low assists we also consistently see teams with iso-heavy offenses and poor ball movement. It is simply very difficult to build team orientated offenses with ball movement with such star players.

I believe we'd see a much improved team offense by trading Jaylen for someone who is more geared towards team offense, or playmaking, or even just less shot happy.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2023, 01:16:46 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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What about Jaylen Brown for Lamelo?  Allows Charlotte to draft Scoot if desired at #2. 

I personally just want to run it back with our current squad, but if people think we need a full identity shake up I think Lamelo could provide that as well as anyone else out there.

Man, I am torn on LaMelo. I love watching him play but the idea of him in a playoff series scares me. Too undisciplined on offense and vulnerable on defense. His health bothers me too.

The guy is beautiful to watch though. I loved that team they had a few years ago with Hayward, LaMelo, Rozier and the backup guard DeVonte Graham. Four ball-handlers attacking from all angles and firing up 3s from all over the place. All passers. Rozier was the worst passer of the four. Ball pinging from side to side.

Seriously, how can one guy be both an exceptionally creative virtuoso and a clown at the same time.

The guy both delights and frustrates in equal meaure. No, not equal measure but dang it is a lot of frustration. Will he ever be commited to playing winning basketball? Or is he just an entertainer? A guy who likes the oohs and aahs but not has not time for the discipline needed to win.

I wish JB had some of Hayward’s passing ability. That’s what he needs to take the next step. Moving and passing instead of trying to get to the rim when it’s 1 on 3. 

There should be a plan 3-4 times a game for him to start driving, draw the double, kick it out, and keep rolling to the hoop or cut back door. Get behind the defense and the ball goes back to him for an easy layup or dunk.

Instead he tries to force it; getting the ball stripped, or trying to make a late pass that gets stolen. If he does pass it out, the ball goes up for a missed 3. He stops instead of continuing to the hoop so he doesn’t get the ball back and he doesn’t get the rebound either when the 3 invariably misses.

One little adjustment can completely change his game.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2023, 01:31:50 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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What about Jaylen Brown for Lamelo?  Allows Charlotte to draft Scoot if desired at #2. 

I personally just want to run it back with our current squad, but if people think we need a full identity shake up I think Lamelo could provide that as well as anyone else out there.

Man, I am torn on LaMelo. I love watching him play but the idea of him in a playoff series scares me. Too undisciplined on offense and vulnerable on defense. His health bothers me too.

The guy is beautiful to watch though. I loved that team they had a few years ago with Hayward, LaMelo, Rozier and the backup guard DeVonte Graham. Four ball-handlers attacking from all angles and firing up 3s from all over the place. All passers. Rozier was the worst passer of the four. Ball pinging from side to side.

Seriously, how can one guy be both an exceptionally creative virtuoso and a clown at the same time.

The guy both delights and frustrates in equal meaure. No, not equal measure but dang it is a lot of frustration. Will he ever be commited to playing winning basketball? Or is he just an entertainer? A guy who likes the oohs and aahs but not has not time for the discipline needed to win.

I wish JB had some of Hayward’s passing ability. That’s what he needs to take the next step. Moving and passing instead of trying to get to the rim when it’s 1 on 3. 

There should be a plan 3-4 times a game for him to start driving, draw the double, kick it out, and keep rolling to the hoop or cut back door. Get behind the defense and the ball goes back to him for an easy layup or dunk.

Instead he tries to force it; getting the ball stripped, or trying to make a late pass that gets stolen. If he does pass it out, the ball goes up for a missed 3. He stops instead of continuing to the hoop so he doesn’t get the ball back and he doesn’t get the rebound either when the 3 invariably misses.

One little adjustment can completely change his game.

Agree 100%

He has tremendous slashing ability, but to take it to the next level he needs to create uncertainty with the defenders.

It's like a baseball pitcher who relies on just 1 pitch. Add in some wrinkes and it really confuses the batter.

I also want to see our guys receive the ball in the post more. Either the D lets them go 1-on-1 or they double team and leave guys wide open on the perimeter. It's a great way to bust a zone.

We are far too predictable.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2023, 02:16:50 PM »

Offline action781

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LaMelo TS% last 3 years

Rookie = 54%
2nd year = 55.4%
This year = 54%

It is not like he can't shoot. This is all shot selection. Not having the discipline to search for the best shot. Too much settling for contested jump-shots.

And there is just as much lack of discipline with his passing. Trying to force the spectacular when there is no need for spectacular. Play solid. Steph Curry is similar with his turnovers. Drives me nuts with Steph too. Take care of the ball!

Funny when reading your first 2 comments before this one, I too thought about the similarities to Curry in what you were criticizing in Lamelo.

I think shot selection, willingness and ability on defense, ast/to ratio are all things that can improve with age and Lamelo is only 21 years old.  What I like about him is that he is a rare player in the league that can really change the entire identity of a team.  Who else in the league is like that right now?  Jokic, Harden, Curry, Lebron (for better or worse), maybe Jimmy Butler, maybe Kawhi, maybe Giannis, probably not CP3 anymore.  Then there's guys like Luka and Trae and Lillard who kinda do on offense but in a very very ball dominant kind of way (I guess Harden is in that group too).

I think Lamelo is a rare player who's style could change Tatum's game for the better.  Still would prefer to just run our crew back though.
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Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2023, 02:29:18 PM »

Offline footey

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What about Jaylen Brown for Lamelo?  Allows Charlotte to draft Scoot if desired at #2. 

I personally just want to run it back with our current squad, but if people think we need a full identity shake up I think Lamelo could provide that as well as anyone else out there.

Lamelo is such a flaky dude, I don’t think he’d fit in here.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2023, 02:53:42 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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What about Jaylen Brown for Lamelo?  Allows Charlotte to draft Scoot if desired at #2. 

I personally just want to run it back with our current squad, but if people think we need a full identity shake up I think Lamelo could provide that as well as anyone else out there.

Man, I am torn on LaMelo. I love watching him play but the idea of him in a playoff series scares me. Too undisciplined on offense and vulnerable on defense. His health bothers me too.

The guy is beautiful to watch though. I loved that team they had a few years ago with Hayward, LaMelo, Rozier and the backup guard DeVonte Graham. Four ball-handlers attacking from all angles and firing up 3s from all over the place. All passers. Rozier was the worst passer of the four. Ball pinging from side to side.

Seriously, how can one guy be both an exceptionally creative virtuoso and a clown at the same time.

The guy both delights and frustrates in equal meaure. No, not equal measure but dang it is a lot of frustration. Will he ever be commited to playing winning basketball? Or is he just an entertainer? A guy who likes the oohs and aahs but not has not time for the discipline needed to win.

Reminds me of the complaints around Rondo when he really started coming into his own as a player. I wouldn’t mind LaMelo feeding the Jays, to be honest.
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Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2023, 03:52:37 PM »

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LaMelo TS% last 3 years

Rookie = 54%
2nd year = 55.4%
This year = 54%

It is not like he can't shoot. This is all shot selection. Not having the discipline to search for the best shot. Too much settling for contested jump-shots.

And there is just as much lack of discipline with his passing. Trying to force the spectacular when there is no need for spectacular. Play solid. Steph Curry is similar with his turnovers. Drives me nuts with Steph too. Take care of the ball!

Funny when reading your first 2 comments before this one, I too thought about the similarities to Curry in what you were criticizing in Lamelo.

I think shot selection, willingness and ability on defense, ast/to ratio are all things that can improve with age and Lamelo is only 21 years old.  What I like about him is that he is a rare player in the league that can really change the entire identity of a team. Who else in the league is like that right now?  Jokic, Harden, Curry, Lebron (for better or worse), maybe Jimmy Butler, maybe Kawhi, maybe Giannis, probably not CP3 anymore.  Then there's guys like Luka and Trae and Lillard who kinda do on offense but in a very very ball dominant kind of way (I guess Harden is in that group too).

I think Lamelo is a rare player who's style could change Tatum's game for the better.  Still would prefer to just run our crew back though.

This is an interesting way to look at it. I agree with all you wrote. LaMelo is a transformational figure for his teams.

It makes me wonder whether it would Tatum's team or LaMelo's team. LaMelo is such a huge personality on the court. Would it be a situation like OKC where Durant is the best player but Westbrook is the team's real leader & engine. The guy who makes the team go.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2023, 03:55:35 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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It’s great in theory but at the end of games the ball always runs through the J’s. That’s the bigger problem because neither guy particularly plays well off the ball. This team needs a system and structure to help them stop playing so stupid in the clutch. Mazzulla ball is not the answer.

I just made a post about this. Thats the crux of the whole issue here. Celtics don't have an offensive system they run.

its basically give the players to your stars and hope they make something happen every trip down the floor. That works sometimes, but its very easy to defend.

watch the warriors. they have stars but they run a movement based offense. It's not like curry and Thompson are standing around jacking up contested 3's.

Exactly -  summed up the problem perfectly.

Bottom line to have a system you need a real coach .  Brad s not thinking , with all the real coach available, he was scared to fire Joe …worried about media instead of winning.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2023, 04:13:41 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Would it even matter? 

The Celtics have guys that can run an offense, see and make the passes.   

Then come the 4th quarter (or earlier in the playoffs) and the ball is put into Tatum's or Brown's hands and watch the offense slow down and stall.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2023, 03:22:21 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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I was watching BST with Felger & Holley last night, and they had a graph of the past 7 champions, highlighting the two best players.

'22 Curry and Thompson
'21 Giannis and Middleton
'20 LeBron and Davis
'19 Kawhi and Lowry
'18 Durant and Curry
'17 Durant and Curry
'16 LeBron and Irving

I would argue Middleton should have been replaced with Jrue Holiday on that list. The graph was trying to make the argument that the past 7 champions didn't have players that had similar skill sets like the Celtics do. I saw it as the point guard was either the first or second best player.

I'm starting to love the idea of trying to trade for Trae Young. I know he can't defend, but he is elite offensively and would take the Celtics offense to the next level. He would create open looks for others, and could you imagine him driving to the lane, where it would either be a layup or lob to Williams.

Wade and LeBron had similar skill-set on their two Miami Heat title teams in 2012 and 2013.

Duncan and D Robinson on the 1999 Spurs.

Then you have two arguable ones:

Pippen and Jordan = similar size players, versatile skill-sets but not necessarily the same. Pippen more facilitator. Jordan scorer. Lot of overlap in skill-set.

Zeke and Joe D = Zeke great PG play. Joe D a big PG or small SG combo guard. Not as creative a passer as Zeke and a bigger better defender but overall quite similar in skill-set.



The big problem for me isn't similarity. It is that Jaylen just isn't good enough. If he passed the ball as well as Joe Dumars or Scottie Pippen, we'd be in business. The problem is he can't.


 Once again. Who gets it. Tp.

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2023, 03:48:36 PM »

Offline NextCeltic34

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We've been saying this team needs the same things every year and every year we end up not having a big man or a playmaker at point guard. At this point I don't expect anything

Re: Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2023, 07:30:38 AM »

Offline michigan adam

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I think at this point I'd trade Brown, RW3, and one of the Smart/DW/Brogdan trio for a big man and PG.

Something like this might be intriguing.

Boston: KAT, Lamelo Ball, Gordan Hayward
Wolves: Brown, RW3
Hornets: Brogdon, Gallinari, k anderson

Charlotte dumps GH and frees up PG spot for scoot, Minnesota moves on from KAT and gains some great talent.  Boston fills biggest holes and runs with

Ball/Smart
DW/PP
JT/GH/hauser
Hortford/GW
KAT/Kornet/Muscala

Alot of versatility and outside shooting on this team.  Might look for a bruiser for deep bench.  Might need a pick or 2 to move around, but frankly feels fairly even the way it is.