Author Topic: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)  (Read 2427 times)

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10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« on: May 31, 2023, 10:21:38 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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I haven't posted in ages, but a lot of stuff from the season bugged me and I thought I'd just get it all out now that it's over. I don't claim most of these takes are new, but hopefully as a whole they qualify as something substantial and worth reading.

1) The mentality and messaging of this season was all wrong from the start. Everything was about avenging last season's loss. What they should have said instead was that last year was over and this was a new year with new challenges. After their hot start the team basically went into cruise control and stopped improving. It felt like they were just waiting for the playoffs to start so they could inevitably steamroll toward the Finals. They clearly looked past certain teams and thought everybody would just be the same as last year instead of recognizing those teams might actually have improved (remember, the Hawks were also better after Snyder took over). The season is about becoming the best version of your team when the playoffs hit. Instead, the team got worse as the season went on. They should have known all year how teams would attack them in the playoffs, but yet they still looked totally unprepared. Really, this team just felt like an entitled group starting with Tatum and Brown taking opportunities for granted. Maybe they read too much of the fawning, east coast-biased reporting pumping them up? Or maybe they simply didn't struggle enough early in their careers because they were drafted onto good teams.

2) Mazzula didn't have the experience to give his players confidence and he coached scared. You could tell from the odd contradictory comments in the media that everybody wasn't on the same page. While the vets were talking about getting back to playing defensive consistently and "identity" issues, Mazzula was changing the topic to offense whenever he was asked a defensive question. When they struggled in the Sixers series, the players made it clear they were clamoring for double-big for awhile. Then in the Miami series after they quit in game 3, the turnaround happened after the players skipped film for a golf session. In some huddles the players even took control, which seems like a clear sign that while they like Joe, they were more confident in their own experience to turn it around. This is not to say that Mazzula won't one day be a good coach, but he wasn't what the team needed this season and they suffered for it. I mean, we're talking about a coach that didn't even figure out how to properly call time outs until late in the season. He also somehow couldn't deal with a relatively polite (by Boston standards) press core despite being from Providence and knowing the deal about sports in the northeast. Imagine if he was coaching in the 80s or when local sports talk radio was still dominant? He would have been eaten alive.

3) Brown and Tatum still need to mature. For Brown, he needs to realize his limitations and accept the Robin role. It doesn't need to be a public acknowledgement, but something he accepts in how he plays. If he doesn't make this shift, there's always going to be problems when it comes to execution. Not being clear about exactly what your role should be and what your own skills/limitations are is how you end up with 8 TOs. When you look at cohesive teams, everybody has a clear role and the coach doesn't ask them to go outside of that. When Bam was having trouble with his back to the basket and making reads/passes off surprise double teams, the Heat moved away from those actions. If Bam still thought of himself as a scorer and Spoelstra was a weak coach deferring to the star players, those mistakes would have just kept repeating. Instead, Bam stuck to defense and setting massive screens and just scoring within the flow of the offense.

Apparently during game 7, Mazzula told Brown this was his opportunity to "step up" with Tatum out, but this was clearly setting Brown up to fail. A brave coach would have run the offense more through White. Brown was basically in the worst scenario for his skillset, trying to create off the dribble against a set halfcourt defense forcing him to go left and knowing almost all our shooters were cold and didn't need to be guarded closely (not that Brown would have passed to them anyway). This is why Brown was resorting to contested stepbacks, even to the point of having one blocked. He knew he couldn't penetrate and at least a three isn't an automatic TO/fast break for Miami.

With Tatum, he needs to fully embrace winning. He's gone from really caring about All-Star teams and All-NBA and seasonal awards/statistical accomplishments to pretending not to care but still kind of caring. It's easy to tell from his comments and the way he plays during the regular season. When Jokic basically bowed out of the MVP race late this season, it was a clear message that he didn't want the media hype to distract from their ultimate goal. Next year, whenever stats or accolades are brought up, Tatum needs to just squash it. I don't want to hear more quotes where he dismisses it, but then at the end still says "well it'd still be kind of cool, I have more time to get an MVP, blah blah blah." He needs to be totally bought in to winning only and that will trickle down to the rest of the team. Honestly, who cares about the All-Star game MVP at all besides little kids? It's a meaningless thing for a serious player to actually care about, especially with how the game is played now with zero defense.

4) Grant never fully bought into his role during the regular season and Mazzula failed to manage that situation properly. We didn't need playmaking or awkward finishes at the rim from Grant. We needed reliable defense, hustle, and spot 3 pt. shooting. In his effort to expand his game in a contract year, he often put the team in trouble on offense and stopped being as focused and reliable on the defensive end. This is why he lost his role to Hauser late in the season. However, Joe's mistake was underestimating Grant's importance in postseason play and Hauser's physical limitations. Suddenly, he had to rush Grant back in with heavy minutes despite not playing him at all late in the regular season. He also couldn't corral Grant's worst tendencies as a ham and attention-seeker. You shouldn't talk if you don't have the accomplishments or game to back it up. You shouldn't divert focus onto you if you're just a role player. Obviously this is also Grant's fault, but Mazzula didn't ever seem able to get Grant to "know his role and shut his mouth" until it was too late.

5) Both Brown and Tatum need to become more high-efficiency players in the halfcourt. The first part of this is obvious - their 3 pt. shooting volume is way too high for their percentages. The second part is more difficult because they actually have to work on scoring in ways that might seem less glamorous and involve trusting other players will get them the ball. Tatum working on things like getting to the line more is not necessarily a bad thing, but it also was ill-timed because of the rule changes involving foul-hunting. Also, everybody knows in the playoffs fouls aren't going to be called as frequently. It also led to a mentality from Tatum that instead of trying to actually finish he was just hunting for calls. Attempting to get calls through planned moves also is a very isolated, "solo" offensive act as opposed to one that involves others. It doesn't help that he is one of the most sensitive players in the league in regards to contact. If somebody so much as breathes on him he still freaks out to the refs. This is related to the maturity question regarding Tatum. He's cut out some of the complaining, but you can tell it's still constantly on his mind and affecting his mental focus. Then this trickles down to the rest of the team, especially Grant who then thinks he can play lawyerball too.

They finally started posting Tatum up more in the playoffs, but it was clearly not something he was that comfortable with. He needs to develop easy, high percentage shots like that fadeaway jumper he can get off any time he wants. There's really no reason why he shouldn't be able to eventually hit that at a high rate. It just can't be the case that he's always dribble-driving from the perimeter. Now, getting closer to the paint is definitely going to demand more of his physicality. There's just no way around that and despite his "workout strength" he's always seemed bothered by lots of contact. I think part of the problem too is that his lower body is not chunky enough to ward off bigger defenders. Sometimes when Tatum posts up it seems he is unable to create enough space for a comfortable entry pass. This brings up the question of whether his current build makes him too slow to reliably create separation on the perimeter and also still not big enough to feel fully comfortable in the paint.

Brown is already reasonably efficient when he stays within his comfort spots, but he didn't shoot it from deep well and his FT% continues to be spotty. His midrange game wasn't consistent enough in the playoffs to keep defenses honest, truly making him one-dimensional. I don't think he's magically going to develop great court vision or an elite handle, but at the very least he needs the outside shot to continue improving.

Brown sub-point: Part of accepting Tatum is the "guy" is also accepting that you can't have two guys resting on defense so they have energy to put up offensive numbers. Brown needs to rededicate himself to defense and stop taking nights off. Frankly, his lack of defensive focus was a huge factor in their playoff losses. This also speaks to the problem of having two stars that are so similar. Most teams have a long 3 and D guy guarding the opposing team's best perimeter player. He doesn't need to do as much on offense so he can use his energy chasing people around. Smart is that guy in theory, but he's got height limitations in certain matchups. I think the question here is, can Brown tailor his game more towards like what Aaron Gordon provides? Can he score more off cuts, catch and shoot 3s, become a defensive chess piece, and also continue with the usual buckets in transition? I know he's not playing with Jokic and it's not a perfect comparison due to Gordon's better size, but you get the point. Brown might be best suited long-term for more off-ball scoring, but do we have players that can consistently make that pass? And most importantly, can his ego accept that type of role?

6) I never thought relying on 36 year-old Horford and Rob was a great strategy for this season. Brogdon becoming available for very little wasn't a bad move, but adding a scoring guard may have prevented them from filling their other need for a Horford replacement. It's clear the front office realized this too by the trade deadline when the Poetl rumors came out. I don't know if they thought they could always get somebody later, or if the finances just never made anything feasible, but it just was an ill-advised plan and their greatest weakness going into the postseason. Not only did Horford's one-on-one defense and 3 pt % slip as he got tired, but his finishing around the basket went from slim to nonexistent. Rob predictably couldn't play long minutes at a high level, which was tough considering he was the only one who could make the Heat pay inside for playing zone all the time. They simply cannot go into next year assuming these two are the primary big rotation. Horford should be a specialist at this point. Rob needs to work on his conditioning and diversify his offensive game, but even then it's a huge risk to go into next season with no other option.

7) They need to start developing players that actually have the physical potential to play in the playoffs. Especially with the new CBA reducing your avenues to create depth, drafting and player development are going to become critical (as will coaching, which should worry Celtics fans). Someone like Caleb Martin is an amazing success story and the Cs basically had nobody step up like that from their bench. I love Pritchard, but let's be realistic: he's too small to ever play a regular role in the playoffs. If you have guys on the bench that you won't play anyway, they have to at least have some potential to develop into one of the 7-8 rotation guys you trust in the playoffs in 90% of situations/matchups.

8) Brogdon's limitations were exposed in the playoffs. Brogdon is still a nice guy to have and you could do worse for a bench scorer. However, considering his contract and the fact Smart and White are still around, he's the most expendable. The three-guard lineups were simply too small and the supposed offensive benefits never really played out. It sucks that he got injured at the worst possible time, but even before then it was clear the increased physicality was bothering his thin frame.

9) Whether or not to commit to Tatum as the primary playmaker - This is the eternal issue and they still haven't figured it out. Without a better playmaker on the roster, you do want Tatum in that role. But then when the offense stagnates or becomes predictable or the ballhandling TOs start piling up, you wonder why the C's can't get a "playmaker to help the Js." All of Smart's playmaking improvements in the world don't matter if he's basically standing in the corner when it's the 4th quarter or the games start actually mattering. The staff and Tatum need to really figure this out because the Cs won't ever discover their offensive identity otherwise. Honestly, what you're really saying when you say the Js need a "playmaking PG" is that Brown's contract slot should be taken up by a star that is actually a true PG (someone like Haliburton, but they already missed out on that). If you show me a "true PG" that isn't a star, more likely than not it's somebody who's 1) undersized/unplayable defensively (Tyus Jones) and/or 2) cannot shoot well enough to provide the spacing you need (Ricky Rubio). Saying we need a Mark Jackson is great, but does that type of player even exist in the league anymore?

10) We can't ever forget about calling out the front office/owners when it's warranted. If financial considerations are still at play here regarding the Stevens "promotion," the handling of Udoka's firing, the skimping on finding experienced assistants for this season, and now the apparent retaining of Joe, it needs to be called out. If you're paying 70 million plus in taxes for a contender but worried about Mazzula's paltry 3 yr/14 million extension, something is wrong. Or, is it more related to the fact that this C's have always been extremely sensitive about their image and their standing as one of the premier organizations in the NBA? Firing somebody is an admission that you made a mistake. Stevens is only still here because they gave him a foolish extension the year before it became clear he wasn't the guy. Now he's in charge and Joe is "his guy." He can't fire Joe without him and the organization looking horrible, but that is the worst reason to base a critical decision upon.

Furthermore, when Udoka was hired the idea was he was a hard-nosed coach with not just playing experience but experience around the league with different organizations and superstars. He was a defensive-minded guy that wouldn't tolerate slacking off. Then when you have to replace him, you've instead hired a guy that fulfills zero of those qualities. Not only is he not a defensive-minded coach, but he sounds like the guy you just fired in Stevens. He has no playing experience in the NBA and no experience with other organizations and has zero cachet to keep anybody in check. Udoka's like, screw you guys, I can get a job elsewhere if I have to and I'll take my entire staff of loyal assistants. Mazzula is like, Jayson if I keep you happy will you tell Brad I should be the permanent coach? Also, Brad can you help me fill out a staff because I actually don't have anybody around the league in my contact list. I pretty much only know my jujitsu instructor but I don't think he'd be good at coaching basketball. Thanks, Brad!

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2023, 10:51:57 PM »

Offline Indocelts

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Long, well thought article that I agree.

TP for you, sir.


Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2023, 11:12:30 PM »

Offline Who

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4) Grant never fully bought into his role during the regular season and Mazzula failed to manage that situation properly. We didn't need playmaking or awkward finishes at the rim from Grant. We needed reliable defense, hustle, and spot 3 pt. shooting. In his effort to expand his game in a contract year, he often put the team in trouble on offense and stopped being as focused and reliable on the defensive end. This is why he lost his role to Hauser late in the season. However, Joe's mistake was underestimating Grant's importance in postseason play and Hauser's physical limitations. Suddenly, he had to rush Grant back in with heavy minutes despite not playing him at all late in the regular season. He also couldn't corral Grant's worst tendencies as a ham and attention-seeker. You shouldn't talk if you don't have the accomplishments or game to back it up. You shouldn't divert focus onto you if you're just a role player. Obviously this is also Grant's fault, but Mazzula didn't ever seem able to get Grant to "know his role and shut his mouth" until it was too late.

I don't think Mazzula intended to freeze G Will out for so long. It was just that Hauser kept playing so darn well that G Will couldn't get back into the team.

Droppin G Will initially and giving him 10-15 games out of the rotation was a smart move given how badly G Will was struggling with his jump-shot. Playing Hauser was smart too. Then Hauser playing so well complicated things.

Hard to drop him when he is outproducing the other guy and playing at a high level (for an end of rotation player) while the other guy was struggling.

I agree that Mazzula should have found a way to get G Will some minutes prior to the playoffs. Maybe cut back a bit on Horford's minutes or Tatum's minutes to fit in some extra time for Grant. Just to get him back in the flow of things and see how he is playing. Make sure he is ready for the playoffs when the team needed him. I also agree Mazzula underestimated Grant's importance to the team in terms of his defensive versatility and physicality. How important those qualities were to our team defense & identity. How important those qualities are in terms of winning tough playoff games & series.

I also thought Mazzula made another mistake in undervaluing Hauser in the playoffs. Hauser got off to a slow start against ATL and Mazzula lost all confidence in him. Hardly played him the rest of the way even though there were good matchups for Hauser especially in that series against Miami. Mazzula over-reacted. 

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2023, 11:15:24 PM »

Offline Who

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5) Both Brown and Tatum need to become more high-efficiency players in the halfcourt. The first part of this is obvious - their 3 pt. shooting volume is way too high for their percentages. The second part is more difficult because they actually have to work on scoring in ways that might seem less glamorous and involve trusting other players will get them the ball. Tatum working on things like getting to the line more is not necessarily a bad thing, but it also was ill-timed because of the rule changes involving foul-hunting. Also, everybody knows in the playoffs fouls aren't going to be called as frequently. It also led to a mentality from Tatum that instead of trying to actually finish he was just hunting for calls. Attempting to get calls through planned moves also is a very isolated, "solo" offensive act as opposed to one that involves others. It doesn't help that he is one of the most sensitive players in the league in regards to contact. If somebody so much as breathes on him he still freaks out to the refs. This is related to the maturity question regarding Tatum. He's cut out some of the complaining, but you can tell it's still constantly on his mind and affecting his mental focus. Then this trickles down to the rest of the team, especially Grant who then thinks he can play lawyerball too.


Lawyerball = brilliant.

I haven't heard that one before. Great description of players arguing their case with referees.

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2023, 12:00:48 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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4) Grant never fully bought into his role during the regular season and Mazzula failed to manage that situation properly. We didn't need playmaking or awkward finishes at the rim from Grant. We needed reliable defense, hustle, and spot 3 pt. shooting. In his effort to expand his game in a contract year, he often put the team in trouble on offense and stopped being as focused and reliable on the defensive end. This is why he lost his role to Hauser late in the season. However, Joe's mistake was underestimating Grant's importance in postseason play and Hauser's physical limitations. Suddenly, he had to rush Grant back in with heavy minutes despite not playing him at all late in the regular season. He also couldn't corral Grant's worst tendencies as a ham and attention-seeker. You shouldn't talk if you don't have the accomplishments or game to back it up. You shouldn't divert focus onto you if you're just a role player. Obviously this is also Grant's fault, but Mazzula didn't ever seem able to get Grant to "know his role and shut his mouth" until it was too late.

I don't think Mazzula intended to freeze G Will out for so long. It was just that Hauser kept playing so darn well that G Will couldn't get back into the team.

Droppin G Will initially and giving him 10-15 games out of the rotation was a smart move given how badly G Will was struggling with his jump-shot. Playing Hauser was smart too. Then Hauser playing so well complicated things.

Hard to drop him when he is outproducing the other guy and playing at a high level (for an end of rotation player) while the other guy was struggling.

I agree that Mazzula should have found a way to get G Will some minutes prior to the playoffs. Maybe cut back a bit on Horford's minutes or Tatum's minutes to fit in some extra time for Grant. Just to get him back in the flow of things and see how he is playing. Make sure he is ready for the playoffs when the team needed him. I also agree Mazzula underestimated Grant's importance to the team in terms of his defensive versatility and physicality. How important those qualities were to our team defense & identity. How important those qualities are in terms of winning tough playoff games & series.

I also thought Mazzula made another mistake in undervaluing Hauser in the playoffs. Hauser got off to a slow start against ATL and Mazzula lost all confidence in him. Hardly played him the rest of the way even though there were good matchups for Hauser especially in that series against Miami. Mazzula over-reacted.

Yeah, he was coaching scared. If something didn't immediately work, he didn't have the patience to stick with it. Sometimes you'd see a role player make a mistake and then they'd be pulled immediately. Then, when veterans were stinking it up he'd stick with them too long (Horford/Brogdon) because he didn't have the balls to sit them or open himself to criticism by trying a less established player. Also, it didn't look great that almost all his decisions seemed more offense-focused (no double-big, Hauser over Grant, Brogdon over White in crunch time occasionally, playing Pritch in odd spots: 11:45min played in ECF game 1). I also felt he was too cowardly to try other players in game 7 when it was clear Tatum couldn't move and Jaylen wasn't suited for the creator role.

Grant wasn't playing well at the time of his demotion, but you can't just lose a guy like that by banishing them completely. I could understand him sitting during the Hawks series because they have speedy, undersized players, but then it continued in the Sixers series until Joe finally relented. It seemed until that point his plan was to not play Grant at all. This is a guy that has shown he's not afraid to take and make big shots like he did in Milwaukee last year. Hauser might be a better shooter in the gym, but Grant's already shown he can do it in a high pressure situation.

I don't know if "lawyerball" already existed, but I stole it from King of the Hill:

"Son, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs and you can't get on base without swinging the bat."
"The pitcher could walk me, dad."
"Don't play lawyerball, son."

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2023, 12:45:04 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I agree with a lot of these points. 

A few of the issues you raised that I've had on my mind for a while now:

1. Tatum and Brown are not working right now
Everybody in the league knows that Brown is the #2 guy in Boston, but as you pointed out it seems clear to me that he himself is not willing to really accept that role.  It feels like he still thinks that #1 role is "up in the air" and he's trying to compete with / outdo  Tatum to try and be the guy rather than simply accepting that Tatum is the man and focussing on the things he can do to help Tatum be at his best.

When Brown first came in to the league he was a very different guy to who he is now.  He was primarily known for being an elite athlete who was very tough and physical on the defensive end.  On the offensive end he was primarily a slasher who did a great job of using his size/strength/athleticism to get in to the paint, get baskets at the rim, and draw fouls.  He could shoot the ball as well, but that was never his thing - he always looked like he was on the natural trajectory of becoming an Andre Iguodala/Jimmy Butler type guy.  That Iggy/Butler type player happens to be exactly what this team could use right now, and would be a perfect complement for Tatum. 

But instead embracing who he seemingly was from the start, somewhere along the line Brown seemed to start moving in a totally different direction and starting basically turning in to Tatum v2 - less attacking the basket, less getting to the foul line, less effort and physicality on defence, more iso ball and volume perimeter shooting.  I'm not sure if he was pushed in this direction by coaching staff, or if he got envious of Tatum's fame and wanted some of that spotlight, or what exactly it was that triggered this change...but the more he becomes like Tatum the less he is able to compliment Tatum. and the harder it gets to play those two guys as your #1/#2 players. 


2. Overreliance on Horford and Timelord
This is a big one that I've been saying from day one.  I love the player that Rob Williams has become, and when he's healthy he can be the highest positive impact player on the team.  I'm also pretty shocked (and pleasantly surprised) that at 36 years old Al Horford is still providing the Celtics with serious impact minutes in big playoff games.  BUT with Horford's reduced conditioning/mobility and Rob's constant injury history, neither of these guys can be relied on as a long-term solution at the starting big positions.  Timelord constantly being injured means that the Celtics are unable to get continuity with him in the rotation, so that starting lineups are always changing and guys cannot build that flawless chemistry.  I really would love to see both players stay in Boston, but that just may not be a feasible way forward.  Boston needs a dependable, steady big man who can give them a consitant 28-30 MPG over at least 65-70 games each season and I don't see either Timelord or Horford being realistically capable of that.  Either you find a way to bring in a consttent starting big some other way (via a trade, etc) and bring both of those guys off the bench, or else you may just need to move one of them. 

I actually think the best way forward may be to move Brown and Rob Williams and see if you can bring back a wing/big package (like Lillard/Nurkic, Bane/JJJ, McCollum/Valanciunas, Sabonis/Huerter, Sabonis/Barnes,  Siakam/Anunoby, Randle/Barrett, Hield/Turmer, Lavine/Vucevic, Bridges/Claxton, Trae/Capela.

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2023, 01:31:31 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Stealing “lawyerball”, that’s great
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2023, 01:59:28 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Muzzy66,

You're totally right. Rookie-year Brown played hard-nosed defense and did his scoring close to the basket by slashing or just relying on pure athleticism. He hadn't developed an outside shot and could barely dribble, so it was also out of necessity. He showed fierce competitiveness against LeBron in the playoffs and it seemed certain he was going to be a defensive stopper, if only his jumper could develop to acceptable levels. Now he's lackadaisical on defense or just plain not able to figure out what's going on, which could be a bball IQ thing. You have to have a certain mentality to be a defensive guy, and I wonder if Jaylen has that. Also, playing the way he does has gotten him All-NBA second team. It'd be really hard to convince him to make drastic changes to his shot profile, unless he's further humbled in big games.

Re: Horford, his foul against Butler at the end of game 6 was totally embarrassing and indicative of how much his defense has waned. He owes White big time for erasing that play from people's memories.

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2023, 06:41:14 AM »

Offline Who

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I actually think the best way forward may be to move Brown and Rob Williams and see if you can bring back a wing/big package (like Lillard/Nurkic, Bane/JJJ, McCollum/Valanciunas, Sabonis/Huerter, Sabonis/Barnes,  Siakam/Anunoby, Randle/Barrett, Hield/Turmer, Lavine/Vucevic, Bridges/Claxton, Trae/Capela.

That is an interesting idea. I want to get an idea of what that team would look like:

G: D White, Smart
G: LaVine, Brogdon
F: Tatum, G Will, Hauser
F: Horford, Gallo
C: Vucevic, Muscala

So we got an overkill of guards there. One of those 3 combo guards should be traded either for a starting PF or a high end 6th man level backup SF/PF.

I like D White next to LaVine. Someone solid and reliable at PG to better balance out Tatum & LaVine. I'd trade Smart or Brogdon instead of D White. LaVine is more efficient than Jaylen but he makes mental errors too. So it would be nice to move away from Smart as a starter. LaVine isn't enough of an upgrade over Jaylen in terms of mental mistakes to be comfortable in the idea of avoiding a repeat of what happened this past season.

That team could get very interesting with a good trade involving Smart or Brogdon for a quality forward.

I like the idea of LaVine's shooting next to Tatum. More of a pure shooter than Jaylen is. More consistent. More lethal. LaVine has shot 39% from 3 over last 4 years on high volume at 7.5 attempts per game. Not that good of a passer but he is gradually improving and he has cut down his turnovers the last two years. 4.4apg relative to 2.5 turnovers per game. Much better than Jaylen.

The big loss is the defense. Jaylen is a multi-position tough man defender. LaVine is a one position defender. A lightweight SG who doesn't switch as well. He does play good man defense at this point in his career (unlike earlier in his career) but like Jaylen gets lost on team D too often. LaVine also does not give the lineup flexability that Jaylen does by being able to play SF and move Tatum to PF. LaVine needs to stay at SG. So the three combo guards need to be broken up and a new forward (PF or SF) needs to be acquired to maintain lineup flexability.

Vucevic would be a nice addition to the offense. A very good low post threat. An above average passer at center. A strong midrange shooter. A solid three point shooter. One of the top offensive centers in the league. Not a strong defender but adequate. If we can get a strong defensive PF next to him, that would be great. Use Horford as a backup big.

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2023, 06:47:13 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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In my observations, I thought the Tatum as a playmaker died off this year as that was Udoka's thing.

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2023, 08:01:34 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I agree with almost all of these.  Nice articulation of some key factors this season.  And good to see you back, obnoxiousmime.  Now, find your old avatar, haha.

The only player I think I disagree with you on is Brogdon.  He was amazing against Philly in the playoffs -- 16 / 4 / 3 on 52.3% 3PT% -- and obviously had a 6MOTY-worthy season.  I don't think the three guard lineups are his fault; they're a function of some of your other factors, such as not having sufficient big-man depth and not developing Hauser into a guy to rely on in the playoffs.  Our last memory is of him struggling mightily, but I don't think that's who he is.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2023, 08:53:13 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

  • Don Nelson
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I’d say the entire season got off on the wrong foot with the Udoka fiasco. They named Mazzulla interim 2 days before camp. Guy had no prep, no assistant coaches, no time to implement his plan. Ownership/management is mostly responsible for that. I don’t think we’ll ever know what happened with Udoka but then waiting around for like two months to “investigate” really killed them from a timing perspective.

Additionally, they need to balance out the roster. They have a glut of combo guards and not enough front court depth. Horford is 37 and Timelord is always an injury risk. Grant has likely played his last game here. They need to add there and one of Smart/White/Brogdon may be needed to do so. Horford falling off a cliff offensively in the playoffs had a very large impact on their offense. They either need to find a replacement in style or maybe transition to a different style of play with the lineup.

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2023, 09:23:54 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Ed Macauley
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I’d say the entire season got off on the wrong foot with the Udoka fiasco. They named Mazzulla interim 2 days before camp. Guy had no prep, no assistant coaches, no time to implement his plan. Ownership/management is mostly responsible for that. I don’t think we’ll ever know what happened with Udoka but then waiting around for like two months to “investigate” really killed them from a timing perspective.

Additionally, they need to balance out the roster. They have a glut of combo guards and not enough front court depth. Horford is 37 and Timelord is always an injury risk. Grant has likely played his last game here. They need to add there and one of Smart/White/Brogdon may be needed to do so. Horford falling off a cliff offensively in the playoffs had a very large impact on their offense. They either need to find a replacement in style or maybe transition to a different style of play with the lineup.

I agree with this.  The recent reporting is that the team never really accepted the decision to fire Udoka.  None of us really know what happened and it seems based on the reporting, that the players didn't understand either.  That is a huge thing to be hanging over the team and the new coach.  It was masked along the way because the team was so good, they still won plenty of games, but looking back, there were signs that something was off.  I don't know how they fix this but they need to.

As to the personnel, you are saying exactly what I have been saying all season.  The Celtics have a glut of combo guards and are thin at PF/C.  Gallinari was the off season move to address this but he blew out his knee.  Tatum is not going anywhere but we likely should trade one of Brown, Smart, White, or Brogdon and get back a comparable big to balance the roster better.  Horford is nearing the end and with RWill, I think we are starting to have his ceiling come into focus.  Grant is a fine fringe starter/bench guy but we need another solid at least starting level big, and if we trade Brown, the return should be an all star level big.

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2023, 10:10:10 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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I agree with almost all of these.  Nice articulation of some key factors this season.  And good to see you back, obnoxiousmime.  Now, find your old avatar, haha.

The only player I think I disagree with you on is Brogdon.  He was amazing against Philly in the playoffs -- 16 / 4 / 3 on 52.3% 3PT% -- and obviously had a 6MOTY-worthy season.  I don't think the three guard lineups are his fault; they're a function of some of your other factors, such as not having sufficient big-man depth and not developing Hauser into a guy to rely on in the playoffs.  Our last memory is of him struggling mightily, but I don't think that's who he is.

It's also exacerbated by their switching defense which isn't as strong when you start adding more weak links into the chain. Physically, even White struggled sometimes. The overall size/physicality battle just seems real to me in the playoffs. Maybe you can outskill the opponent in the regular season, but when you're beaten up and tired those 3 pointers don't seem to go in as often.

I can't find the Abdur-Rahim smiling photo to be my avatar anymore, unfortunately. Maybe I should update it to dreadlocks Jimmy Butler.

Re: 10 final observations from the 22-23 season (long!)
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2023, 10:16:10 PM »

Offline NextCeltic34

  • Don Chaney
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Agree about Brogdon. Like I had mentioned in a topic I posted, he didn't meet my expectations as the "missing piece" we needed although from a trade standpoint it's not like we gave much for him... although I feel as though Pritchard in the role could have been more beneficial in other areas as far as defensive effort, playmaking, and just as good shooting. Brogon had tunnel vision in my opinion and just didn't make me a fan.