Author Topic: Retool Around Tatum  (Read 9517 times)

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Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2023, 12:36:59 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I'll take a double double machine that shoots 59% from the floor any day of the week.  Ayton has never averaged less than 10 rebounds in his career. He scored 18 a game this year.  Even in the playoffs he averaged 9.7 boards.  His scoring was down to 13.4, but that was mostly him getting less touches as he still shot 55% from the field. Phoenix didn't know how to use him, especially after Durant came over, but those are not the numbers of a player that stinks. The Suns are trying to move on from him because of fit, which is why a package as weak as Smart and Brogdon may actually be enough to get him.
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Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2023, 12:44:32 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I'll take a double double machine that shoots 59% from the floor any day of the week.  Ayton has never averaged less than 10 rebounds in his career. He scored 18 a game this year.  Even in the playoffs he averaged 9.7 boards.  His scoring was down to 13.4, but that was mostly him getting less touches as he still shot 55% from the field. Phoenix didn't know how to use him, especially after Durant came over, but those are not the numbers of a player that stinks. The Suns are trying to move on from him because of fit, which is why a package as weak as Smart and Brogdon may actually be enough to get him.

He literally got benched in his last playoff series. And pretty much everybody watching seemed to agree it was the right move. High shooting percentage sure, except he doesn't get FT's, doesn't shoot threes. He's just sort of soft for a center imo. I think Smart/Brogdon is a massive over pay.

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2023, 01:18:10 PM »

Offline Mahk E Mahk

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it would seem the JT, JB, Marcus trio has run its course, and the best path forward is to rebuild the roster around tatum’s strengths and weaknesses. if you’re gm of the C’s, what’s your plan?

without naming specific players, which i will probably add later in this thread, tatum needs the following to reach his potential (in no particular order):

  • a big who is a legit low post threat to open up the driving/shooting lanes for JT, and who is a solid rebounder
  • a floor general PG who will keep the ball moving and get JT the ball in his preferred spots
  • a spot-up shooter who can keep opposing defenses honest and knock down the open threes
  • a nasty, hard nosed veteran who will do the dirty work, raise the intensity of this team, and push JT to be mentally tougher
  • a no nonsense coach with an offensive approach that plays to JT’s strengths, and a defensive minded 1A assistant who will return the C’s to a defensive mentality

Interestingly, I think you have the right list in the opposite order of importance for me - the only one I really don't agree with is the low post offense, simply because the NBA isn't that league anymore, for better or worse. The rules we have now don't particularly compliment low post play and it's a bit of a lost art across the guys in the league for that reason.

So, on points 4&5:
None of us know what blend of Hardy/Mazz/Udoka/Stat brought out the defense last year, but a few things are clear - Horford's not capable of anchoring our defense anymore, Williams probably isn't up to replacing him, and the rest of the bigs, save Timelord, are essentially dead weight. Not to say they can't do it, but so far they haven't. So a reshuffle of the coaching staff (I think Mazzulla stays after this series so we need to see who else is brought in as assistants) as well as some defensively-minded players closer to the rim than Smart & Tatum are the most important for me.


Point 3 is a 'gimmie', to a degree - of course we want players who can knock down open shots. Our bench being paper thin after the top 7 really hurt us because we didn't have that.

I struggle with Point 2, so I think that's the one we should talk about.

So: it absolutely makes sense that we need a steady handed playmaker when we can't 'improvise' our way to offensive success, however I don't think the current core have played at their best with a scoring point guard (like Kemba), and in fact our successes last year stem from the Horford/Walker trade, which let Smart be the primary point guard, a move that was nearly as impactful as Horford being incredible on the switch.

That's a difficult circle to square, especially because we're almost certainly not going to have the same defensive impact from our bigs next year if the roster stays the same anyway, so I'm hesitant to compromise on wing defense as well.

Plus,while our offense certainly has periods where it stagnates to the point where time seems to split open and every possession takes roughly a thousand years off of my life as a fan, I'm not sure we actually do better if we, say, swap Marcus out for a Chris Paul type who can execute in the halfcourt. Again and as well, I'm not sure how many playmaking points are really left in the league that fit with the timeline of our core, which is also a concern if we're suggesting (for example) flipping JT and Smart for this playmaking PG.

first of all, really thoughtful response, TP. everything you stated has legit merit, even areas in which we disagree.

while i agree the nba isn’t a low post centric league any longer, i simply think a legit (not necessarily dominant or even low post centric) threat down low would help spread the floor, keep the defense honest, and open up the perimeter game. for some reason, al has completely abandoned any semblance of a post game and kicks everything out, even when he’s at the rim with the ball. timelord has zero low post game and is serviceable only for lob dunks. a big who is a threat to score inside, including mid-range, would prevent coaches like spo from selling out to stop the three, which crippled the C’s offense.

regarding point 2, this offense is at its best when the three is falling, but that proved to be an unsustainable strategy in playoff basketball. when the three isn’t falling, we need a playmaker to get JT (and JB, if he stays) the ball in their spots, while preventing the stagnation we witness so often. i might be incorrectly remembering which game, but i think the first half of the sixers game 6 was a master class by smart in facilitating the offense as PG, in order to get the offense going (didn’t he have 10 assists in the 1H, only to abandon this approach in the 2H?). unfortunately, marcus has proven he’s not this guy, aside from a few flashes. both J’s are better when not consistently forced to create via iso and too much dribbling, and would excel at being fed in their spots. additionally, rob had his best offensive games when smart was facilitating and teams had to account for the lobs to rob, which opened up the perimeter game for the J’s.

kemba is a primary scoring PG who excelled when shooting 15-20 times a night. unfortunately as a PG, he’s averaged less than 5 assists/game. give me the inverse of kemba who excels at facilitating but can knock down the open jump shot, when teams double the J’s. more DJ and less kemba because our offense should be centered on getting the J’s quality looks.

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2023, 01:59:35 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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Yeah agreed with that - I just don't know who our facilitator of the future might be? Sadly enough (maybe it's because of the thread) but Lonzo Ball would have been interesting.
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Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2023, 02:21:49 PM »

Offline Mahk E Mahk

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Yeah agreed with that - I just don't know who our facilitator of the future might be? Sadly enough (maybe it's because of the thread) but Lonzo Ball would have been interesting.

funny, one of the first names that came to mind for me was also lonzo.

we definitely agree that the true facilitator PG is a rare breed these days.

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2023, 03:19:50 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I'll take a double double machine that shoots 59% from the floor any day of the week.  Ayton has never averaged less than 10 rebounds in his career. He scored 18 a game this year.  Even in the playoffs he averaged 9.7 boards.  His scoring was down to 13.4, but that was mostly him getting less touches as he still shot 55% from the field. Phoenix didn't know how to use him, especially after Durant came over, but those are not the numbers of a player that stinks. The Suns are trying to move on from him because of fit, which is why a package as weak as Smart and Brogdon may actually be enough to get him.

He literally got benched in his last playoff series. And pretty much everybody watching seemed to agree it was the right move. High shooting percentage sure, except he doesn't get FT's, doesn't shoot threes. He's just sort of soft for a center imo. I think Smart/Brogdon is a massive over pay.
Phoenix lost that game by 25 points.  Worst game in the series. Also correlates to Jokic's best shooting and least turnover game of the series.  Hmm, I wonder what could have been different.  Maybe not playing Ayton was a mistake. A mistake that got the coach fired.  And perhaps not figuring out how to use him also a coaching failure.  Ayton is a very talented scorer in the post, they just don't go to him down low.  I think a new coach will do him well, Monty clearly didn't like him and clearly didn't know what to do with him.
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Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2023, 03:23:35 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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Tatum getting a complete pass because he sprained his ankle.

Dude scored 13 points last season when we got closed out by the warriors and brown had 34.

Tatum was overall really bad all playoffs Mr disappearing act.

He’s a step back 3 point shooter and if the shot isn’t falling he looks like a nervous wreck out there.

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2023, 03:25:31 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Celtics get Van Fleet, Barnes, Ayton
Raptors get Brown, Payne, future Suns draft seconds
Suns get Smart, Williams

Pipedream, I know. But I think Barnes and VanFleet are winning basketball players that would play elevate the intelligence and toughness we need. Then, we get Ayton as a scorer inside. Let Grant walk.

Bring Horford, Gallo, and Brogdon off the bench. I think we would be a better basketball team that is more equipped to play tough in the playoffs without shooting themselves in the foot.

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2023, 03:25:34 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I'll take a double double machine that shoots 59% from the floor any day of the week.  Ayton has never averaged less than 10 rebounds in his career. He scored 18 a game this year.  Even in the playoffs he averaged 9.7 boards.  His scoring was down to 13.4, but that was mostly him getting less touches as he still shot 55% from the field. Phoenix didn't know how to use him, especially after Durant came over, but those are not the numbers of a player that stinks. The Suns are trying to move on from him because of fit, which is why a package as weak as Smart and Brogdon may actually be enough to get him.

He literally got benched in his last playoff series. And pretty much everybody watching seemed to agree it was the right move. High shooting percentage sure, except he doesn't get FT's, doesn't shoot threes. He's just sort of soft for a center imo. I think Smart/Brogdon is a massive over pay.
Phoenix lost that game by 25 points.  Worst game in the series. Also correlates to Jokic's best shooting and least turnover game of the series.  Hmm, I wonder what could have been different.  Maybe not playing Ayton was a mistake. A mistake that got the coach fired.  And perhaps not figuring out how to use him also a coaching failure.  Ayton is a very talented scorer in the post, they just don't go to him down low.  I think a new coach will do him well, Monty clearly didn't like him and clearly didn't know what to do with him.

The mistake was not doing it earlier. Again, there's a reason everyone expects them to trade him this offseason. If he was such a high impact guy you'd think they'd want him back. They don't.

That a team trying to win it all wants to break up his salary for depth should tell you its a bad idea to consolidate our depth into him.

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2023, 05:46:24 PM »

Offline Who

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Celtics get Van Fleet, Barnes, Ayton
Raptors get Brown, Payne, future Suns draft seconds
Suns get Smart, Williams

Pipedream, I know. But I think Barnes and VanFleet are winning basketball players that would play elevate the intelligence and toughness we need. Then, we get Ayton as a scorer inside. Let Grant walk.

Bring Horford, Gallo, and Brogdon off the bench. I think we would be a better basketball team that is more equipped to play tough in the playoffs without shooting themselves in the foot.

Wow, that is a lot of change.

So the team would be:

G: VanVleet, Brogdon
G: D White, (Brogdon)
F: Tatum, Hauser
F: S Barnes, Gallo
C: Ayton, Horford


* I like the VanVleet, D White & Brogdon backcourt.

* I like Ayton at the five but I do worry that there isn't enough help inside for him. Rebounding help. Interior D help. I wonder if starting Horford is better. Not convinced of that either. Ayton is not a leader. I worry he is a bit exposed here. The small backcourt. A young Scottie Barnes. Not much help in the paint for him.

If you go bigger with S Barnes at SG next to Tatum at SF, you will have problems with a lack of outside shooting like Toronto struggled with this season.

* Not sure Scottie Barnes is the best fit with Tatum. They both play the same position. Barnes isn't a good enough shooter for them to play big. Makes the team quite small if we play them both at forward next to one big. Especially if that one big is not a dominant big man. Ayton is solid but not dominant.

I do like Scottie Barnes' multi-faceted game but his scoring is still pretty poor. Can he be a true #2 option? Is he a future Scottie Pippen? Or a lesser Andre Iguodala type figure? Is Iggy a good enough player to be a #2 on a title team?

Or is Scottie Barnes a lesser Iggy because that is what he currently is. Is he Scottie Barnes unfit to be a #2? Is he a #3 or even #4?

Just how good is Scottie Barnes? How good next season? How good in the future? How long will it take for him to get to a high enough level? 1-2 years or 3-4 years?

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2023, 05:51:19 PM »

Offline Who

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I'll take a double double machine that shoots 59% from the floor any day of the week.  Ayton has never averaged less than 10 rebounds in his career. He scored 18 a game this year.  Even in the playoffs he averaged 9.7 boards.  His scoring was down to 13.4, but that was mostly him getting less touches as he still shot 55% from the field. Phoenix didn't know how to use him, especially after Durant came over, but those are not the numbers of a player that stinks. The Suns are trying to move on from him because of fit, which is why a package as weak as Smart and Brogdon may actually be enough to get him.

Yeah, I like Ayton. As a 3rd option, he is very good. As a 4th option, he is ridiculously good.

He is a bit soft. He can become passive / peripheral. He is good more than dominant. I would not be comfortable with Ayton as my team's #1 or #2 guy but I do like him in a lower responsibility role as a #3. I would happy to see him here in Boston.

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2023, 06:14:05 PM »

Offline gouki88

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The key problem is our stars lack mental toughness.   This includes Tatum.
How?
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
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C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2023, 06:15:03 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Celtics get Van Fleet, Barnes, Ayton
Raptors get Brown, Payne, future Suns draft seconds
Suns get Smart, Williams

Pipedream, I know. But I think Barnes and VanFleet are winning basketball players that would play elevate the intelligence and toughness we need. Then, we get Ayton as a scorer inside. Let Grant walk.

Bring Horford, Gallo, and Brogdon off the bench. I think we would be a better basketball team that is more equipped to play tough in the playoffs without shooting themselves in the foot.
Raptors probably need a bit more to part with Barnes, like some first round picks, but that would be a super interesting team. Dramatically different.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2023, 09:15:15 PM »

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RE: Scottie Barnes

Pull up shooter = 32.5% 9th worst league
Catch and shoot = 31.3% 5th worst league
Steph back jumpers = 31%

28% on 224 3s this season. 135 of his 224 threes on the season occurred when he was wide open meaning no defender within 6 feet of him. He shot 29.6% when left wide open. So he is regularly being ignored and is incapable of punishing teams for this.

Also does not get to the FT line. Only 3.2 FTAs against 13.2 FGAs. A FT rate of 24%. A well below average mark. Especially for his size. Apparently, he had one of the lowest blow-by marks in the league (16% of drives) for high frequency drivers. Also avoids contact around the basket similar to Tatum.

Those numbers are from a youtube video by Josh Cohen. I'll have to try some more of videos. That was interesting analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-UFY2oLsAo

Re: Retool Around Tatum
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2023, 09:20:10 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I think they need less “Tools” around Tatum. Sorry, bad joke.  :P
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