Retool Around Tatum

[RJ87]

Tatum getting a complete pass because he sprained his ankle.

Dude scored 13 points last season when we got closed out by the warriors and brown had 34.

Tatum was overall really bad all playoffs Mr disappearing act.

He’s a step back 3 point shooter and if the shot isn’t falling he looks like a nervous wreck out there.

27.2/10.5/5.3 in the playoffs is really bad?

Led the team in points and rebounds. Played the past 2 seasons with a fractured wrist, but is really bad?

[Who]

Glad to see more and more people coming around to the Moranis way of thinking.  Only been pushing for this exact thing for years.  This is Tatum's team and every move should be about maximizing Tatum.

How about something like this (all 4 trades work individually but I don't know about collectively with the new rules)

Brown, Kornet for Davis

Smart, Brogdon, Gallo, Pritchard for Paul, Ayton

R. Williams, Muscala for Anunoby

G. Williams for McConnell, Nwora

Starters - Paul, White, Tatum, Davis, Ayton
Rotation - McConnell, Nwora, Hauser, Horford, Anunoby
Deep Bench - Davison, 35, Champagnie

Add a veteran SG with tax mle and a completely rebuilt team. Better balance and better overall.

My first thought is that any team relying on Chris Paul as a starter in 2023-2024 has some serious question marks. If we presume Durant and Tatum are equal talent - how is this team getting any further than the Suns did this season?

Yes. Thst team is better than the current Boston team which just made the conference finals. As for the Suns, that C's team is much better defensively than the Suns and has much better size to deal with Jokic, Giannis, and Embiid.  Davis for all his offensive issues, still defends incredibly well and while Ayton is not a good defender he does rebound at a high level. Horford off the bench adds a quality 3rd big and his minutes will be reduced (at least when Davis is healthy). 

The only real concern I'd have is at what point in time both Davis and Paul have their annual injuries.  That is a real concern,  but Davis was healthy when it mattered this year and I do think having Ayton and Horford with him will help his load.  Paul will get hurt at some point as well, but it isn't like Smart and Brogdon don't have injury concerns and that trade was more about getting Ayton.  That said, when Paul is playing, I think his steady hand is what Tatum needs at point, which was the point of the exercise.

That is a dang impressive team.

The other thing I'd be worried about along with CP3's injury proneness and to a lesser degree AD's, is AD's decline in his jump-shooting.

He was a very bad shooter this season and I believe he generally has been since the bubble 3 years ago. I am not sure how well he can play PF next to an interior big man if he cannot shoot the ball reliably. Will he recover his jump-shot? Or is this the new normal for AD? His jumper certainly been more consistently bad than good since the bubble title.

Also a bit (not a lot but a bit) worried about the level of dribble penetration. I believe CP3 had the fewest or 2nd fewest paint finishes in the league this season among high minute players (PJ Tucker the other). D White was too passive on his driving in last two rounds. Not sure there is enough guard dribble penetration next to Tatum to get defenses off kilter. Lot of pressure on Tatum.

[Moranis]

I'll take a double double machine that shoots 59% from the floor any day of the week.  Ayton has never averaged less than 10 rebounds in his career. He scored 18 a game this year.  Even in the playoffs he averaged 9.7 boards.  His scoring was down to 13.4, but that was mostly him getting less touches as he still shot 55% from the field. Phoenix didn't know how to use him, especially after Durant came over, but those are not the numbers of a player that stinks. The Suns are trying to move on from him because of fit, which is why a package as weak as Smart and Brogdon may actually be enough to get him.

He literally got benched in his last playoff series. And pretty much everybody watching seemed to agree it was the right move. High shooting percentage sure, except he doesn't get FT's, doesn't shoot threes. He's just sort of soft for a center imo. I think Smart/Brogdon is a massive over pay.

Phoenix lost that game by 25 points.  Worst game in the series. Also correlates to Jokic's best shooting and least turnover game of the series.  Hmm, I wonder what could have been different.  Maybe not playing Ayton was a mistake. A mistake that got the coach fired.  And perhaps not figuring out how to use him also a coaching failure.  Ayton is a very talented scorer in the post, they just don't go to him down low.  I think a new coach will do him well, Monty clearly didn't like him and clearly didn't know what to do with him.

The mistake was not doing it earlier. Again, there's a reason everyone expects them to trade him this offseason. If he was such a high impact guy you'd think they'd want him back. They don't.

That a team trying to win it all wants to break up his salary for depth should tell you its a bad idea to consolidate our depth into him.

The Suns traded their depth away at the deadline.  They were a very shallow team and they don't have any way to really add to the depth other than trading Ayton.  He is a 3rd or 4th option type player and in that, he is very good. 

Phoenix just simply doesn't have any real options to get more depth unless they trade Ayton.  Next year they have Durant, Booker, Ayton, and Shamet as the only fully guaranteed deals and that is like a 120 million.  Paul and Payne are partially guaranteed and Wainright has a team option.  The Suns basically have to guarantee Paul and Payne, which puts them with just 6 players at over 155 million in salary.  Sure they can trade Shamet, but he doesn't make enough to get more meaningful depth.  They basically have to look at turning Ayton into several lesser players because they have to fill out the roster and if they can move Paul in the process, they will do that (given his age) as that will allow them to bring back more depth. 

Smart, Brogdon, Gallanari, Pritchard for Ayton, Paul is a pretty solid trade for both teams and gives both teams something they need.  The Suns get depth and more flexibility to make additional moves.  The Celtics get a true floor general and leader at point and a very talented rebounder and low post scorer.  Both teams get better in that trade.  Even if Boston makes no other moves, they should absolutely do that if it is on the table. 

[Moranis]

Glad to see more and more people coming around to the Moranis way of thinking.  Only been pushing for this exact thing for years.  This is Tatum's team and every move should be about maximizing Tatum.

How about something like this (all 4 trades work individually but I don't know about collectively with the new rules)

Brown, Kornet for Davis

Smart, Brogdon, Gallo, Pritchard for Paul, Ayton

R. Williams, Muscala for Anunoby

G. Williams for McConnell, Nwora

Starters - Paul, White, Tatum, Davis, Ayton
Rotation - McConnell, Nwora, Hauser, Horford, Anunoby
Deep Bench - Davison, 35, Champagnie

Add a veteran SG with tax mle and a completely rebuilt team. Better balance and better overall.

My first thought is that any team relying on Chris Paul as a starter in 2023-2024 has some serious question marks. If we presume Durant and Tatum are equal talent - how is this team getting any further than the Suns did this season?

Yes. Thst team is better than the current Boston team which just made the conference finals. As for the Suns, that C's team is much better defensively than the Suns and has much better size to deal with Jokic, Giannis, and Embiid.  Davis for all his offensive issues, still defends incredibly well and while Ayton is not a good defender he does rebound at a high level. Horford off the bench adds a quality 3rd big and his minutes will be reduced (at least when Davis is healthy). 

The only real concern I'd have is at what point in time both Davis and Paul have their annual injuries.  That is a real concern,  but Davis was healthy when it mattered this year and I do think having Ayton and Horford with him will help his load.  Paul will get hurt at some point as well, but it isn't like Smart and Brogdon don't have injury concerns and that trade was more about getting Ayton.  That said, when Paul is playing, I think his steady hand is what Tatum needs at point, which was the point of the exercise.

That is a dang impressive team.

The other thing I'd be worried about along with CP3's injury proneness and to a lesser degree AD's, is AD's decline in his jump-shooting.

He was a very bad shooter this season and I believe he generally has been since the bubble 3 years ago. I am not sure how well he can play PF next to an interior big man if he cannot shoot the ball reliably. Will he recover his jump-shot? Or is this the new normal for AD? His jumper certainly been more consistently bad than good since the bubble title.

Also a bit (not a lot but a bit) worried about the level of dribble penetration. I believe CP3 had the fewest or 2nd fewest paint finishes in the league this season among high minute players (PJ Tucker the other). D White was too passive on his driving in last two rounds. Not sure there is enough guard dribble penetration next to Tatum to get defenses off kilter. Lot of pressure on Tatum.

I don't think Davis needs 3 point range to be effective, even at PF.  He hit 44% of his shots from 10-16 feet and 51.6% from 3-10 feet.  That was nearly 50% of his total attempts.  If he can hit the midrange at that level, I think he will provide enough spacing.  Only about 8% of his shots were from 3, so him shooting those is more about just keeping teams honest.  He and Vanderbilt worked ok and Ayton is better than Vanderbilt.  This would however be a shift away from the uber 3 point heavy offense the team has had the last several years.  They'd have to play more inside out, pick and rolls, etc. 

Dribble penetration is a bit of an issue, but part of that is solved more with a different offensive style i.e. pick and roll, backdoor screens, etc. The team would just need to play differently and get to the line by playing through the post i.e. Ayton and Davis down low would need to draw fouls (as well as Tatum).  I would think the team would play at a slower offensive pace and utilize the superior defensive skills to win games more like 100-95 than 120-115.  They'd be much better suited to play the last series against the Heat when the pace is slowed down.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Celtics get Van Fleet, Barnes, Ayton
Raptors get Brown, Payne, future Suns draft seconds
Suns get Smart, Williams

Pipedream, I know. But I think Barnes and VanFleet are winning basketball players that would play elevate the intelligence and toughness we need. Then, we get Ayton as a scorer inside. Let Grant walk.

Bring Horford, Gallo, and Brogdon off the bench. I think we would be a better basketball team that is more equipped to play tough in the playoffs without shooting themselves in the foot.

Wow, that is a lot of change.

So the team would be:

G: VanVleet, Brogdon
G: D White, (Brogdon)
F: Tatum, Hauser
F: S Barnes, Gallo
C: Ayton, Horford


* I like the VanVleet, D White & Brogdon backcourt.

* I like Ayton at the five but I do worry that there isn't enough help inside for him. Rebounding help. Interior D help. I wonder if starting Horford is better. Not convinced of that either. Ayton is not a leader. I worry he is a bit exposed here. The small backcourt. A young Scottie Barnes. Not much help in the paint for him.

If you go bigger with S Barnes at SG next to Tatum at SF, you will have problems with a lack of outside shooting like Toronto struggled with this season.

* Not sure Scottie Barnes is the best fit with Tatum. They both play the same position. Barnes isn't a good enough shooter for them to play big. Makes the team quite small if we play them both at forward next to one big. Especially if that one big is not a dominant big man. Ayton is solid but not dominant.

I do like Scottie Barnes' multi-faceted game but his scoring is still pretty poor. Can he be a true #2 option? Is he a future Scottie Pippen? Or a lesser Andre Iguodala type figure? Is Iggy a good enough player to be a #2 on a title team?

Or is Scottie Barnes a lesser Iggy because that is what he currently is. Is he Scottie Barnes unfit to be a #2? Is he a #3 or even #4?

Just how good is Scottie Barnes? How good next season? How good in the future? How long will it take for him to get to a high enough level? 1-2 years or 3-4 years?

Good thoughts. Here are a few of mine. First, I think Tatum is best as 2-3. He can play up at the 4 some. I'm a believer in Barnes. I don't know what all of his skills will be. But I think he's a winning basketball player, and that's all I'm thinking about right now. I think he's smart and plays hard. His scoring skills are a bit meh. I think he's a new Draymond Green. I don't love the fit of Ayton next to Barnes, but I do like Horford (for a year or two) next to either. For this year, I could see OG as a more natural fit next to Tatum, but that adds other salary complications.

The Ayton fit isn't natural unless we have a 3/D 4 next to him, but I do think the Suns would do Smart/Williams for Ayton. I also think it may make sense to take a flier on a young talented big. The scoring inside would make our offense a bit more versatile too.

[Who]

I don't think Davis needs 3 point range to be effective, even at PF.  He hit 44% of his shots from 10-16 feet and 51.6% from 3-10 feet.  That was nearly 50% of his total attempts.  If he can hit the midrange at that level, I think he will provide enough spacing.  Only about 8% of his shots were from 3, so him shooting those is more about just keeping teams honest.  He and Vanderbilt worked ok and Ayton is better than Vanderbilt.  This would however be a shift away from the uber 3 point heavy offense the team has had the last several years.  They'd have to play more inside out, pick and rolls, etc. 

Cool. That is much better than I thought AD was shooting. He was terrible in the playoffs this year. I feel like I am always hearing about how badly he is shooting the ball.

So his 3PT% has been awful since the bubble. Just 24% over last 3 years on 2 attempts per game. I agree, the 3 ball is not essential. If AD can knock down two point jump-shots consistently, that is enough.

So I am surprised, pleasantly surprised, that AD has shot the ball that well from two. I am less interested in the 3-10 feet shots. They are short shots. I am interested in the 10-16 feet midrange shots and the 16-23 feet long twos.

So AD shot well this year at 43% and 40% on good volume from those ranges this season although he flat-lined in the playoffs. In 2022, he shot only 32% from midrange and 41% long twos. In 2021 it was reversed, he shot 40% from midrange and only 31% from long twos.

So in all 3 years, he failed as a three point shooter. In 2021, he shot well to the FT line area and failed outside of that. In 2022, he shot well on long twos but missed the midrange ones. In 2023, he shot well on both midrange and long twos but flat-lined in the playoffs and missed everything.

Hmm, yeah, I'd gamble on that working. Ayton is not a paint only big man either. He has good range out to the FT line area. Those two should be able to make that work. They would be phenomenal defensively. Yeah, I'd do those deals.

[keevsnick]

I'll take a double double machine that shoots 59% from the floor any day of the week.  Ayton has never averaged less than 10 rebounds in his career. He scored 18 a game this year.  Even in the playoffs he averaged 9.7 boards.  His scoring was down to 13.4, but that was mostly him getting less touches as he still shot 55% from the field. Phoenix didn't know how to use him, especially after Durant came over, but those are not the numbers of a player that stinks. The Suns are trying to move on from him because of fit, which is why a package as weak as Smart and Brogdon may actually be enough to get him.

He literally got benched in his last playoff series. And pretty much everybody watching seemed to agree it was the right move. High shooting percentage sure, except he doesn't get FT's, doesn't shoot threes. He's just sort of soft for a center imo. I think Smart/Brogdon is a massive over pay.

Phoenix lost that game by 25 points.  Worst game in the series. Also correlates to Jokic's best shooting and least turnover game of the series.  Hmm, I wonder what could have been different.  Maybe not playing Ayton was a mistake. A mistake that got the coach fired.  And perhaps not figuring out how to use him also a coaching failure.  Ayton is a very talented scorer in the post, they just don't go to him down low.  I think a new coach will do him well, Monty clearly didn't like him and clearly didn't know what to do with him.

The mistake was not doing it earlier. Again, there's a reason everyone expects them to trade him this offseason. If he was such a high impact guy you'd think they'd want him back. They don't.

That a team trying to win it all wants to break up his salary for depth should tell you its a bad idea to consolidate our depth into him.

The Suns traded their depth away at the deadline.  They were a very shallow team and they don't have any way to really add to the depth other than trading Ayton.  He is a 3rd or 4th option type player and in that, he is very good. 

Phoenix just simply doesn't have any real options to get more depth unless they trade Ayton.  Next year they have Durant, Booker, Ayton, and Shamet as the only fully guaranteed deals and that is like a 120 million.  Paul and Payne are partially guaranteed and Wainright has a team option.  The Suns basically have to guarantee Paul and Payne, which puts them with just 6 players at over 155 million in salary.  Sure they can trade Shamet, but he doesn't make enough to get more meaningful depth.  They basically have to look at turning Ayton into several lesser players because they have to fill out the roster and if they can move Paul in the process, they will do that (given his age) as that will allow them to bring back more depth. 

Smart, Brogdon, Gallanari, Pritchard for Ayton, Paul is a pretty solid trade for both teams and gives both teams something they need. The Suns get depth and more flexibility to make additional moves.  The Celtics get a true floor general and leader at point and a very talented rebounder and low post scorer.  Both teams get better in that trade.  Even if Boston makes no other moves, they should absolutely do that if it is on the table.

You are free to have your own opinion of course, but i am pretty confident the c's would never do this. Ayton has no value right now, he's just not good enough to justify his salary. This makes Boston demonstrably worse imo, if for no other reason than Chris Paul is never healthy in the playoffs.

[celticsclay]

Glad to see more and more people coming around to the Moranis way of thinking.  Only been pushing for this exact thing for years.  This is Tatum's team and every move should be about maximizing Tatum.

How about something like this (all 4 trades work individually but I don't know about collectively with the new rules)

Brown, Kornet for Davis

Smart, Brogdon, Gallo, Pritchard for Paul, Ayton

R. Williams, Muscala for Anunoby

G. Williams for McConnell, Nwora

Starters - Paul, White, Tatum, Davis, Ayton
Rotation - McConnell, Nwora, Hauser, Horford, Anunoby
Deep Bench - Davison, 35, Champagnie

Add a veteran SG with tax mle and a completely rebuilt team. Better balance and better overall.

Are you really gonna start talking in the third person like this?

[lbgreen33]

Please Sop the Madness!! How is Getting th the EC finals a Failure??? Took it 7 games and lost.
I am posting this again! I feel pity for most of you, so sad you can't enjoy how far we went. ONLY ONE TEAM WINS EACH YEAR. The odds are stacked against you every year to even get to the EC finals!!!
 This all seems so crazy to me!! It is sad that most people don't appreciate what they have when they have it!! STOP, the JB bashing! He had a horrible game 7, no doubt. So what! We were one of the FINAL 3 TEAMS still alive in the Playoffs! If what everyone is saying about JB is true, then that wouldn't be possible.
People don't like to lose, but guess what!! 27 other teams where watching on TV!! So please just stop!
We will re-sign JB and we should. JB and JT Took us this far almost every year they have played together!
What other current duo has done that? So just give it a rest, we all have warts, just look in the mirror. I know I do, but we are truley blessed to have the Celtics, we always got a Long season thanks to them.

[blink]

Glad to see more and more people coming around to the Moranis way of thinking.  Only been pushing for this exact thing for years.  This is Tatum's team and every move should be about maximizing Tatum.

How about something like this (all 4 trades work individually but I don't know about collectively with the new rules)

Brown, Kornet for Davis

Smart, Brogdon, Gallo, Pritchard for Paul, Ayton

R. Williams, Muscala for Anunoby

G. Williams for McConnell, Nwora

Starters - Paul, White, Tatum, Davis, Ayton
Rotation - McConnell, Nwora, Hauser, Horford, Anunoby
Deep Bench - Davison, 35, Champagnie

Add a veteran SG with tax mle and a completely rebuilt team. Better balance and better overall.

Are you really gonna start talking in the third person like this?

'George is getting upset!!'

[celticsclay]

Glad to see more and more people coming around to the Moranis way of thinking.  Only been pushing for this exact thing for years.  This is Tatum's team and every move should be about maximizing Tatum.

How about something like this (all 4 trades work individually but I don't know about collectively with the new rules)

Brown, Kornet for Davis

Smart, Brogdon, Gallo, Pritchard for Paul, Ayton

R. Williams, Muscala for Anunoby

G. Williams for McConnell, Nwora

Starters - Paul, White, Tatum, Davis, Ayton
Rotation - McConnell, Nwora, Hauser, Horford, Anunoby
Deep Bench - Davison, 35, Champagnie

Add a veteran SG with tax mle and a completely rebuilt team. Better balance and better overall.

Are you really gonna start talking in the third person like this?

'George is getting upset!!'

Lol this is worth a bunch of tps.  Great reference

[snively]

Ja Morant would be my target in a Jaylen trade.

Risky but the only other major talent I can see as buy low.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Ja Morant would be my target in a Jaylen trade.

Risky but the only other major talent I can see as buy low.

interesting

[Who]

Ja Morant would be my target in a Jaylen trade.

Risky but the only other major talent I can see as buy low.

interesting

Yep, good call on Morant. He'd be a fun target.

[Who]

Not sure who I prefer - Morant or JJJ.

I am high on JJJ. I like him as a #2 next to Tatum. I like his defense and our team's ability to play big with two legit seven foot shot blockers in the lineup while maintaining quality floor spacing. I love the size of that front-court with Tatum's size and length at the three.

Morant would be so much fun in totally different way. A legit dribble drive guard. Constantly putting the defense on the back foot and creating opportunities for teammates with his speed and ball-handling. I would ship out our three combo guards and replace them with proper wings / backup bigs / legit shooters. Maybe keep Pritchard as the backup PG. I want finishers next to Morant. Shot makers. Not more ball-handling combo guards. I want shooters.