Author Topic: Brown Needs To Go  (Read 13558 times)

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Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2023, 12:31:02 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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B/R reporting "C's likely to extend Jaylen Brown."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10077652-jaylen-brown-rumors-very-good-chance-celtics-sign-sg-to-new-contract-amid-backlash

Wonder if this is to get him signed, and then traded once they can??

Yeah we're stuck with him. No other team will give up anything if substance if he is a one-year rental. We need to extend him then wait a year (can't trade him for 1 year according to CBA rules) and reevaluate.

If he is signed this off season to the max the C's can offer, when is he allowed to be dealt?  I saw that on a somewhere, that the C's might sign him to the max, then trade when allowed.
If you sign a supermax extension you cannot be traded for a year from the date that you sign that extension.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2023, 12:51:34 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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B/R reporting "C's likely to extend Jaylen Brown."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10077652-jaylen-brown-rumors-very-good-chance-celtics-sign-sg-to-new-contract-amid-backlash

Wonder if this is to get him signed, and then traded once they can??

Yeah we're stuck with him. No other team will give up anything if substance if he is a one-year rental. We need to extend him then wait a year (can't trade him for 1 year according to CBA rules) and reevaluate.

If he is signed this off season to the max the C's can offer, when is he allowed to be dealt?  I saw that on a somewhere, that the C's might sign him to the max, then trade when allowed.
If you sign a supermax extension you cannot be traded for a year from the date that you sign that extension.

For example: KAT signed a super max last off season, he can't be traded until July 7 of this year for the same reason.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2023, 04:35:16 PM »

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Quote
Boston is going to bring in Silas or Vogel or both to help Joe. I do not see either one taking Brown to the next level. He just does the same things over and over. He is a wing that has no handles and no basketball sense. I am not sure you can fix that with him.

Last night with Tatum hurt was a chance for Brown to step up. I am not talking about scoring 50 but just being a leader. Instead he failed in every aspect. He was going to play one on 5 no matter what. He just doesn't do the little things needed to be successful and it seems no one lets him know this. The bigger the game this is what you get from him. He is still just as bad or worse with the turnovers.

I do think that Brown, more so than Tatum, is better equipped to succeed with tighter coaching and another primary ball handler on the floor.

I was looking up some Sengun highlights because he gets mentioned a bit in possible Jaylen trades. What was interesting in the comments section was the amount of dislike for Stephen Silas that Rockets fans have. Terrible offensive coach. Terrible development coach. Delighted to be rid of him.

Interesting observations from Rockets fans and relevant to the whole assassitant coach helping Jaylen get better discussion & assisstant coach helping Mazzula discussion. Does not look like Stephen Silas is the man for that.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2023, 05:15:45 PM »

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I’m not ready to give up on Brown yet.  What we really need is a good offensive coach that can put him in better in game situations where he can take advantage of his strengths as a player and then also stay out of situations where his weaknesses can get him into trouble.

The offensive end of the court just seems like to much of a free for all for everyone

He refuses to play a team game no matter who the coach has been. The ball gets to him and he never moves it. It is dribble into four guys and shoot a very tough shot, turnover, missed jump shot. I am not sure what his strengths are other than being athletic.

Games like this prove over and over he is incapable of putting a team on his back and pulling them across the finish line. The biggest moments he just is awful. 8 turnovers last night and honestly the Heat weren't doing anything special on defense.

Maybe it’s a moot point, but I don’t think it’s a matter of him refusing to play a team game.  I don’t think he has the innate court vision to create for his teammates as he gets tunnel vision.

Playmaking isn’t Tatum’s strength either.  During the regular season I don’t think it’s as much of a problem.  Come the playoffs, the game slows down with teams getting back on defense.  That with more game planning exposes this issue.  Brown wil probably do better with a floor general type of point guard and/or being surrounded with better playmakers.

I’m ready to move on from Brown and add a better complimentary player.  Also, giving him the super max will hamstring the team for years as he’s not worth that much.

I don't know that Jaylen will do that much better with a true PG given the volume of shot attempts he takes. If he was willing to play off a PG and thus shoot less, he could be more selective in his shot selection and would likely see a boost in shooting efficiency. So 15 FGAs a night instead of 20 FGAs. A 20ppg scorer instead of a 27ppg scorer.

As long as Jaylen insists on taking this many shots while providing this little passing, I believe he will continue to have indifferent results on offense. It is just not good basketball. It is hard to play with a guy like that. Someone who shoots that much but refuses to share the ball with teammates. That tunnel vision / shot hunting hurts our offense.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2023, 05:22:09 PM »

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B/R reporting "C's likely to extend Jaylen Brown."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10077652-jaylen-brown-rumors-very-good-chance-celtics-sign-sg-to-new-contract-amid-backlash

Wonder if this is to get him signed, and then traded once they can??

Yeah we're stuck with him. No other team will give up anything if substance if he is a one-year rental. We need to extend him then wait a year (can't trade him for 1 year according to CBA rules) and reevaluate.

Paying Jaylen the supermax reminds me of Milwaukee paying Khris Middleton that huge contract & Philly paying Tobias Harris that huge contract. More Middleton than Tobias.

They had to do it. Were sort of forced into it. Lack of alternate viable routes to replacing the guy if they didn't pay him. And they were valuable pieces of the puzzle. In MIL's case with Middleton, they got a title out of it. Worthwhile.

However, in both cases, their trade value went way down because that big payday made them much less attractive. I believe we'll see the same with Jaylen. The talk of "pennies on the dollar"; I do not believe that is the case. There is likely some drop in value due to his expiring deal but I believe Jaylen will retain a large amount of his value on the trade market.

I question whether his trade value today is any lower than it will be post signing the supermax. I believe the supermax will hurt his trade value and make it near impossible to get an equivalent talent back in return for Jaylen in a future trade. He will be tradeable but we will take a loss talent wise.

I wonder whether there is any real difference in that loss in trade value in expiring contract vs future overpaid supermax deal. Is Jaylen really any more tradeable a year or two from now than he is today?

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2023, 05:41:39 PM »

Offline Stig

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This is not just an overreaction to this G7 massacre. But this guy can not get $55M per year. He has a lot of skill and is a great player. I used to prefer him to Tatum but just the bad decisions on the court are unforgivable. Also as a person, he is not a good dude. This may even be a rare scenario where trading him for a bunch of really good players may be worth it even if we do not get a stud in return that is on his level.

P.S. I wish we just lost in 4 after this being the outcome, at least Slow Joe would maybe be gone and we could have Nurse or a competent coach. I'd honestly even have Doc back at this point, which is saying something since the last 15 years for him has not been good.

He has been steadily improving his game every year, I'd give him another chance, under the right system I think he'll learn how to hide his weakness and be more efficient, especially if Tatum also improves his game. I do agree Tatum holds all the cards here, if he likes playing with Brown, Brown stays, I don't think that's bad though. Tatum + Brown is a core you can build around. Tatum is the ceiling setter, if Tatum had played excellent this offseason and we still lost, then yes maybe Brown is the problem, but it wasn't.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2023, 07:42:10 PM »

Offline Mahk E Mahk

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Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2023, 08:15:42 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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although I think, JB has problems (ball handling, stepping up in clutch moments), he is not THE problem. And we did not lose solely because of him.

thats why I wouldn't trade him... he knows his stats... he knows what he needs to be better at. I trust, he will put the work in.

In terms of the first part (that he is not THE problem) I agree that he's not the sole problem with the team overall.  But I do think he's a major part of it.  It think the biggest problem with the team is that two the best players on the team (and the two guys we depend on most) are both very young, highly streaky volume shooters who go on dramatic hot/cold swings from one game to the next, and who can be highly turnover prone when asked to handle the ball too much under high pressure scenarios. 

If one of our players was like that and our other top player was a smooth, steady, consistent, reliable guy then I think that would be fine.  But because both of our guy are like this it makes the team utterly unpredictable - when both guys are hot we look like we can't be beaten, when both guys are struggling, we look like we can't be anybody, and when it's somewhere in the middle we don't know what to expect. 

I do believe that this is the single biggest problem the team faces, and I think JB makes up 50% of that problem. 

As for the whole idea that JB wasn't soely to blame for the game 7 loss...I'm not so sure.  By halftime he had chucked up 15+ field goal attempts, made barely a couple of them, and had multiple turnovers to go with it.  It's precisely this kind of hero-ball that brings out the worst in this team, and I honestly think his first half performance may have single handedly put the team into a double digit hole that they just weren't ever able to dig themselves back out of.  I really do put about 80% of the blame for this one particular game on to Brown.   

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2023, 08:37:12 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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This is not just an overreaction to this G7 massacre. But this guy can not get $55M per year. He has a lot of skill and is a great player. I used to prefer him to Tatum but just the bad decisions on the court are unforgivable. Also as a person, he is not a good dude. This may even be a rare scenario where trading him for a bunch of really good players may be worth it even if we do not get a stud in return that is on his level.

P.S. I wish we just lost in 4 after this being the outcome, at least Slow Joe would maybe be gone and we could have Nurse or a competent coach. I'd honestly even have Doc back at this point, which is saying something since the last 15 years for him has not been good.

It's fair to critique a player's flaws and he definitely deserves it after this game. I'm pretty hard on him and have a history of being onboard with a trade. But you don't know these guys at all. It's a reach to attack players personally.

The guy defends Kanye, Kris & Black Hebrew Israelites.. you serious?

Not to mention violent criminals and woman-beaters juts because they are black, and openly going to a Celtics games wearing a "black power" jacket. 

If any white basketball player tried to defend a violent white criminal or wore a "white power" jacket I can guarantee that they would be suspended and fined by either the Celtics or the league, so I struggle to understand the double standard.

I'm not sure if he is genuinely a bad guy or if he's just a young and impressionable kid who's been influenced by the wrong people, but some of his actions and words are extremely off-putting.

If White people were a discriminated minority then you’d have an analogous situation but that isn’t the history in this country.  White power connotes Whites over other races; supremacy. Black power is an equality-seeking message. Like it or not, America’s history places the races in a different mentality and makes the analogy you’re trying to make incorrect and poorly informed. 

Whites in America - when the term Black Power came into being - had the power to legally discriminate. They did so (along with frequent impunity from violence) by refusing to allow blacks into hotels, restaurants, bathrooms, not allowing them in certain neighborhoods, providing them with poor schools, fewer opportunities, systematic and very directly racism.  When Blacks began to fight back it made sense to gain power through messages of self-worth, messages of fighting racism as opposed to White Power which sends a message of blatant racism and supremacy given American history.  Many Black Americans still feel racism is alive and well in America and that is why the reaction to police shootings/killings is so visceral. Doesn’t mean Jaylen is right in his reaction in this case, but your attempt to simplify through a non-analogous analogy neglects historical perspective.

America has a long history of racism committed by white people against black people.  This is well known and well documented and nobody would every try to dispute that.  Many people (including many white people, mind you) fought and gave their lives to help eradicate that way of like and to make sure it became history and remained as such. 

We don't live in the 1940s anymore.  American citizens today all have the same rights and opportunities under the law.  Trying to imply that a black man raping a girl is not as bad as a white man raping a woman just because the black man's ancestors faced racism 100 year ago is disgusting.  I guarantee you that girl being raped doesn't feel any better knowing that the perpetrator was black.  Likewise the family of the kid who just got shot in the street doesn't grieve any less because their son got shot by a black man instead of a white man. 

Crime is crime.  Violent acts are violent acts.  They are equally disgusting and despicable regardless of the colour of skin of either the suspect or the victim.  Standing up for a rapist and woman-beater just because he's black is absolutely disgusting on Jaylen's part.  He may be young, but he's not THAT young and he's certainly not stupid.  He's old enough and smart enough to know better, so it's difficult for me to just shrug it off as "he doesn't know what he's saying so I'll let it go".  He knows exactly what he's saying.  Whether he truly believes what he's saying or just feels social pressure (from friends, family or other people with influence in his life) to say it is another matter.

Also you describe white power as a "superirority" movement and black power as an "equality" movement.  I don't agree with that at all.  Black Power is a black superiority movement, and I don't see how it is any different at all.  They are both disgraceful, immoral and should be treated as such. 

This whole recent concept of trying to combat racism by supporting different types of racism is one of the biggest problems with western society today.  You don't fix racism with counter-racism.  Just like you don't fix rape by counter-rape or murder with counter-murder.

Just about every race of people has been the subject of racial discrimination and violence by other racial groups at some point in history.  Whites in south Africa, jews in Germany, Greeks by the Turks, Croatians vs Serbs - I could go on forever.  If you allow bad historic acts to justify bad future acts then you're basically just giving everybody on the planet a green light to murder, pillage, assault and rape each other at will.  It's a truly fudged up mentality.

The only way there is any hope of achieve "equality" is to stop judging people by their skin colour and start judging all people as purely by their acts and actions.  The story shouldn't be "black man got shot by a white cop".  The story should be "a rapist and wife beater got shot by a Police officer after trying to kidnap his gf's kids, resist arrest, and stab an Officer with a knife".  The only thing that ISN'T relevant in that scenario is the skin colour of the people involved, and yet that is the one single thing JB focusses on.  I'm sorry, but that is a problematic mentality and is the type of mentality that breeds hate, which in turn just drives further crime and violence.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2023, 09:09:08 PM by Muzzy66 »

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2023, 08:56:07 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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This is not just an overreaction to this G7 massacre. But this guy can not get $55M per year. He has a lot of skill and is a great player. I used to prefer him to Tatum but just the bad decisions on the court are unforgivable. Also as a person, he is not a good dude. This may even be a rare scenario where trading him for a bunch of really good players may be worth it even if we do not get a stud in return that is on his level.

P.S. I wish we just lost in 4 after this being the outcome, at least Slow Joe would maybe be gone and we could have Nurse or a competent coach. I'd honestly even have Doc back at this point, which is saying something since the last 15 years for him has not been good.

It's fair to critique a player's flaws and he definitely deserves it after this game. I'm pretty hard on him and have a history of being onboard with a trade. But you don't know these guys at all. It's a reach to attack players personally.

The guy defends Kanye, Kris & Black Hebrew Israelites.. you serious?

Not to mention violent criminals and woman-beaters juts because they are black, and openly going to a Celtics games wearing a "black power" jacket. 

If any white basketball player tried to defend a violent white criminal or wore a "white power" jacket I can guarantee that they would be suspended and fined by either the Celtics or the league, so I struggle to understand the double standard.

I'm not sure if he is genuinely a bad guy or if he's just a young and impressionable kid who's been influenced by the wrong people, but some of his actions and words are extremely off-putting.

If White people were a discriminated minority then you’d have an analogous situation but that isn’t the history in this country.  White power connotes Whites over other races; supremacy. Black power is an equality-seeking message. Like it or not, America’s history places the races in a different mentality and makes the analogy you’re trying to make incorrect and poorly informed. 

Whites in America - when the term Black Power came into being - had the power to legally discriminate. They did so (along with frequent impunity from violence) by refusing to allow blacks into hotels, restaurants, bathrooms, not allowing them in certain neighborhoods, providing them with poor schools, fewer opportunities, systematic and very directly racism.  When Blacks began to fight back it made sense to gain power through messages of self-worth, messages of fighting racism as opposed to White Power which sends a message of blatant racism and supremacy given American history.  Many Black Americans still feel racism is alive and well in America and that is why the reaction to police shootings/killings is so visceral. Doesn’t mean Jaylen is right in his reaction in this case, but your attempt to simplify through a non-analogous analogy neglects historical perspective.


we are not pre civil rights anymore.  modern day black panthers are as racist as can be. just like the hebrew israelites.  so it is a bad bad look for jaylen. dont get me started on the actual crime stats and who police kill the most of or the truth about blm's founders. it all does not fit the narrative the msm wants you to believe. ill leave it at that.

Saying "don't get me started" doesn't provide you with the only righteous argument.  I accept that the civil rights era brought change and that there are absolutely vile and violent racists of every race - including Black Americans - who use their power (however amassed) with racist intent.   It is quite a presumption that I am a wide-eyed naive follower of a media outlet that I typically don't watch.   You have no idea what you're talking about as to how I arrive at my conclusions and your assumptions are mindless and offensive.  That said, to ignore the impact of history is not something I am willing to do and to ignore the voices of present day Black Americans who continue to experience (as many state)  racial discrimination, most of whom have never participated in a BLM protest, is also something I'm not willing to do. I don't know Jaylen well enough to judge his intent, he might be a racist, he might not be.  He might be a 26 year old with an unusual platform who is in the process of figuring things out for himself, and like most 26 year olds, likely making some mistakes in judgment along the way.

And this is why I pointed this out myself in my earlier post, when I said something like "I don't know if he's just naive and being influenced by bad people, or if he is genuinely a bad, racist dude". 

That's me trying to leave the door somewhat open and give him a little benefit of doubt.

But at the same time, JB is not 18 years old anymore.  He's 25 now.  He's no longer a kid, he's a young adult.  There is a point where you need to stop treating somebody as a kid who makes mistakes and need to start accepting that they are a man making their own life decisions.  Jaylen doesn't just go out on his own private time making these comments on twitter or on his own private platforms - if that were the case I would be much more forgiving.  He goes out of his way to use his position as a professional Celtics player to maximise his platform and to push his rhetoric as hard and as far as he can.  And when you do that it's no longer just one young man speaking his mind, it's an adult trying to force problematic views and ideas down the throats of others. 

I'm not ok with that, and I think it makes it much harder to forgive him for his problematic views. 

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2023, 09:56:03 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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This is not just an overreaction to this G7 massacre. But this guy can not get $55M per year. He has a lot of skill and is a great player. I used to prefer him to Tatum but just the bad decisions on the court are unforgivable. Also as a person, he is not a good dude. This may even be a rare scenario where trading him for a bunch of really good players may be worth it even if we do not get a stud in return that is on his level.

P.S. I wish we just lost in 4 after this being the outcome, at least Slow Joe would maybe be gone and we could have Nurse or a competent coach. I'd honestly even have Doc back at this point, which is saying something since the last 15 years for him has not been good.

It's fair to critique a player's flaws and he definitely deserves it after this game. I'm pretty hard on him and have a history of being onboard with a trade. But you don't know these guys at all. It's a reach to attack players personally.

The guy defends Kanye, Kris & Black Hebrew Israelites.. you serious?

Not to mention violent criminals and woman-beaters juts because they are black, and openly going to a Celtics games wearing a "black power" jacket. 

If any white basketball player tried to defend a violent white criminal or wore a "white power" jacket I can guarantee that they would be suspended and fined by either the Celtics or the league, so I struggle to understand the double standard.

I'm not sure if he is genuinely a bad guy or if he's just a young and impressionable kid who's been influenced by the wrong people, but some of his actions and words are extremely off-putting.

If White people were a discriminated minority then you’d have an analogous situation but that isn’t the history in this country.  White power connotes Whites over other races; supremacy. Black power is an equality-seeking message. Like it or not, America’s history places the races in a different mentality and makes the analogy you’re trying to make incorrect and poorly informed. 

Whites in America - when the term Black Power came into being - had the power to legally discriminate. They did so (along with frequent impunity from violence) by refusing to allow blacks into hotels, restaurants, bathrooms, not allowing them in certain neighborhoods, providing them with poor schools, fewer opportunities, systematic and very directly racism.  When Blacks began to fight back it made sense to gain power through messages of self-worth, messages of fighting racism as opposed to White Power which sends a message of blatant racism and supremacy given American history.  Many Black Americans still feel racism is alive and well in America and that is why the reaction to police shootings/killings is so visceral. Doesn’t mean Jaylen is right in his reaction in this case, but your attempt to simplify through a non-analogous analogy neglects historical perspective.


we are not pre civil rights anymore.  modern day black panthers are as racist as can be. just like the hebrew israelites.  so it is a bad bad look for jaylen. dont get me started on the actual crime stats and who police kill the most of or the truth about blm's founders. it all does not fit the narrative the msm wants you to believe. ill leave it at that.

Saying "don't get me started" doesn't provide you with the only righteous argument.  I accept that the civil rights era brought change and that there are absolutely vile and violent racists of every race - including Black Americans - who use their power (however amassed) with racist intent.   It is quite a presumption that I am a wide-eyed naive follower of a media outlet that I typically don't watch.   You have no idea what you're talking about as to how I arrive at my conclusions and your assumptions are mindless and offensive.  That said, to ignore the impact of history is not something I am willing to do and to ignore the voices of present day Black Americans who continue to experience (as many state)  racial discrimination, most of whom have never participated in a BLM protest, is also something I'm not willing to do. I don't know Jaylen well enough to judge his intent, he might be a racist, he might not be.  He might be a 26 year old with an unusual platform who is in the process of figuring things out for himself, and like most 26 year olds, likely making some mistakes in judgment along the way.

And this is why I pointed this out myself in my earlier post, when I said something like "I don't know if he's just naive and being influenced by bad people, or if he is genuinely a bad, racist dude". 

That's me trying to leave the door somewhat open and give him a little benefit of doubt.

But at the same time, JB is not 18 years old anymore.  He's 25 now.  He's no longer a kid, he's a young adult.  There is a point where you need to stop treating somebody as a kid who makes mistakes and need to start accepting that they are a man making their own life decisions.  Jaylen doesn't just go out on his own private time making these comments on twitter or on his own private platforms - if that were the case I would be much more forgiving.  He goes out of his way to use his position as a professional Celtics player to maximise his platform and to push his rhetoric as hard and as far as he can.  And when you do that it's no longer just one young man speaking his mind, it's an adult trying to force problematic views and ideas down the throats of others. 

I'm not ok with that, and I think it makes it much harder to forgive him for his problematic views.

You and I aren’t hugely different on this except that I give him more slack.  Yes, I continue to do so based on the ideas that 1) he’s still young (we have different cutoffs) and 2) I think he tries without great deft to balance or thread  things he believes in under circumstances that don’t necessarily serve his case well.  I completely understand that to you he’s had his youthful dalliances in the public eye and ‘politics’ and now he’s old enough to pay the piper for adult errors.  I just don’t agree that a man at 26 is necessarily in that place. Some are; some aren’t. I give benefit of doubt on that, and I understand it’s gone a bit beyond that for you. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just disagree.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2023, 10:22:53 PM »

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Who is the playoff league leader in turnovers?

Jaylen Brown!

66 turnovers in 20 games.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2023, 10:27:15 PM »

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Jaylen finished with 68 assists to 66 turnovers for the playoffs. Pretty much a 1:1 AST:TO ratio.

His 68 assists come against 365 FG attempts (20.6 FGA per game) & 74 FT attempts (5.1 FTA per game). Actually, that is a really bad FT rate. Only about 20%. So the best part of 400 scoring opportunities used for 68 dimes. The guy sure takes a lot of shots without giving much back in return to his teammates. A taker not a giver.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2023, 10:37:34 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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This is not just an overreaction to this G7 massacre. But this guy can not get $55M per year. He has a lot of skill and is a great player. I used to prefer him to Tatum but just the bad decisions on the court are unforgivable. Also as a person, he is not a good dude. This may even be a rare scenario where trading him for a bunch of really good players may be worth it even if we do not get a stud in return that is on his level.

P.S. I wish we just lost in 4 after this being the outcome, at least Slow Joe would maybe be gone and we could have Nurse or a competent coach. I'd honestly even have Doc back at this point, which is saying something since the last 15 years for him has not been good.

It's fair to critique a player's flaws and he definitely deserves it after this game. I'm pretty hard on him and have a history of being onboard with a trade. But you don't know these guys at all. It's a reach to attack players personally.

The guy defends Kanye, Kris & Black Hebrew Israelites.. you serious?

Not to mention violent criminals and woman-beaters juts because they are black, and openly going to a Celtics games wearing a "black power" jacket. 

If any white basketball player tried to defend a violent white criminal or wore a "white power" jacket I can guarantee that they would be suspended and fined by either the Celtics or the league, so I struggle to understand the double standard.

I'm not sure if he is genuinely a bad guy or if he's just a young and impressionable kid who's been influenced by the wrong people, but some of his actions and words are extremely off-putting.

If White people were a discriminated minority then you’d have an analogous situation but that isn’t the history in this country.  White power connotes Whites over other races; supremacy. Black power is an equality-seeking message. Like it or not, America’s history places the races in a different mentality and makes the analogy you’re trying to make incorrect and poorly informed. 

Whites in America - when the term Black Power came into being - had the power to legally discriminate. They did so (along with frequent impunity from violence) by refusing to allow blacks into hotels, restaurants, bathrooms, not allowing them in certain neighborhoods, providing them with poor schools, fewer opportunities, systematic and very directly racism.  When Blacks began to fight back it made sense to gain power through messages of self-worth, messages of fighting racism as opposed to White Power which sends a message of blatant racism and supremacy given American history.  Many Black Americans still feel racism is alive and well in America and that is why the reaction to police shootings/killings is so visceral. Doesn’t mean Jaylen is right in his reaction in this case, but your attempt to simplify through a non-analogous analogy neglects historical perspective.

America has a long history of racism committed by white people against black people.  This is well known and well documented and nobody would every try to dispute that.  Many people (including many white people, mind you) fought and gave their lives to help eradicate that way of like and to make sure it became history and remained as such. 

We don't live in the 1940s anymore.  American citizens today all have the same rights and opportunities under the law.  Trying to imply that a black man raping a girl is not as bad as a white man raping a woman just because the black man's ancestors faced racism 100 year ago is disgusting.  I guarantee you that girl being raped doesn't feel any better knowing that the perpetrator was black.  Likewise the family of the kid who just got shot in the street doesn't grieve any less because their son got shot by a black man instead of a white man. 

Crime is crime.  Violent acts are violent acts.  They are equally disgusting and despicable regardless of the colour of skin of either the suspect or the victim.  Standing up for a rapist and woman-beater just because he's black is absolutely disgusting on Jaylen's part.  He may be young, but he's not THAT young and he's certainly not stupid.  He's old enough and smart enough to know better, so it's difficult for me to just shrug it off as "he doesn't know what he's saying so I'll let it go".  He knows exactly what he's saying.  Whether he truly believes what he's saying or just feels social pressure (from friends, family or other people with influence in his life) to say it is another matter.

Also you describe white power as a "superirority" movement and black power as an "equality" movement.  I don't agree with that at all.  Black Power is a black superiority movement, and I don't see how it is any different at all.  They are both disgraceful, immoral and should be treated as such. 

This whole recent concept of trying to combat racism by supporting different types of racism is one of the biggest problems with western society today.  You don't fix racism with counter-racism.  Just like you don't fix rape by counter-rape or murder with counter-murder.

Just about every race of people has been the subject of racial discrimination and violence by other racial groups at some point in history.  Whites in south Africa, jews in Germany, Greeks by the Turks, Croatians vs Serbs - I could go on forever.  If you allow bad historic acts to justify bad future acts then you're basically just giving everybody on the planet a green light to murder, pillage, assault and rape each other at will.  It's a truly fudged up mentality.

The only way there is any hope of achieve "equality" is to stop judging people by their skin colour and start judging all people as purely by their acts and actions.  The story shouldn't be "black man got shot by a white cop".  The story should be "a rapist and wife beater got shot by a Police officer after trying to kidnap his gf's kids, resist arrest, and stab an Officer with a knife".  The only thing that ISN'T relevant in that scenario is the skin colour of the people involved, and yet that is the one single thing JB focusses on.  I'm sorry, but that is a problematic mentality and is the type of mentality that breeds hate, which in turn just drives further crime and violence.

Your ideal is one I can hope for as well. Obviously we have different points of view as to where we are, and see  the “power” slogans having different messaging/ meaning. I think you’re wrong but respect your opinion, hope you respect mine, and hope that your ideal does comes to fruition. The challenge is that such a change doesn’t happen unilaterally. Ideally you’d hope that one side could just do the right thing, but reality is that if you try to judge people solely by the content of their character and you are then treated in a way that feels judged by race, it’s hard. 

Your views about the 1940’s is an exaggerated attempt to suggest ‘we’re over that now’.  You are entitled to believe that but I hope you hear that not everyone agrees that is the case.  Judgments based on race still exist - sometimes as blatant racism (hopefully rarely) and sometimes in milder forms such as bias.  As a child of the 60’s and as a person who witnessed forced busing 1st hand in the 70s - and listening through the years to experiences of people of color - it’s my opinion that we haven’t achieved the ideal of race-blindness, and I don’t really think we’re very close. But that’s my thought.  And my hope is that people like Jaylen will ultimately do their best to promote the ideal.  I don’t believe he’s forging that path yet, but I haven’t given up on him and I hope he gets there in time.

Re: Brown Needs To Go
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2023, 10:49:54 PM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
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Who is the playoff league leader in turnovers?

Jaylen Brown!

66 turnovers in 20 games.

Hahaha, follow up:

(1) Jaylen Brown = 66 turnovers
(2) Jayson Tatum = 56 turnovers

Our two Jays leading all players in the playoffs in turnovers

(5) Marcus Smart = 45 turnovers

A 3rd player in the top five! Celtics owning this category.

Nikola Jokic and Bam Adebayo were 3rd and 4th with 53 and 50 turnovers respectively. The next DEN and MIA players to show up on the list are Jimmy at #9 and J Murray at #14. Again, we have 3 players in the top 5. Philly's duo of Embiid and Harden were #10 and #11. LeBron #7 and AD #12. Durant #8 and Booker #15. Again, our two stars were #1 and #2.

Lowry and D Russell were #16 and #17 to make a trio. Our 3rd guy was Smart at #5.

3 guys in the top 5 in turnovers!