Author Topic: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?  (Read 2936 times)

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Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2023, 04:26:46 PM »

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As I started to work this out in my head, I figured the second version was more where you were going.  Really, either way.  We could offer Brown to UTA directly for Markkanen and Clarkson.  That is an OK deal all on its own.  Or if we could end up with Simons and Markkanen by adding in Pritchard, both are deals worth considering.  Markkanen is that elusive skilled big that we need.  And if we can add in a player like Simons, that is a great asset to have for depth or a future trade.  Brown is still the best player though so tough decision.  As I said in another thread, after what we have seen this playoff run, I think this type of deal involving Brown is more likely.

With Markkanen's improvement, is Jaylen Brown still the best player in this deal? Why is Jaylen better than Markkanen?

Just my opinion, and I tend to be fairly high on Markkanen.  Putting up inflated numbers on a bad team does not change my impression of Markkanen.  He is right there in that Adebayo, Sabonis range, if that.  Brown is a player that could be a team's #1.  I like Markkanen but I would not trade Brown for him straight up.  I think Brown has more value.  But say Markkanen and Clarkson?  I could see that.

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2023, 05:00:38 PM »

Offline Who

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As I started to work this out in my head, I figured the second version was more where you were going.  Really, either way.  We could offer Brown to UTA directly for Markkanen and Clarkson.  That is an OK deal all on its own.  Or if we could end up with Simons and Markkanen by adding in Pritchard, both are deals worth considering.  Markkanen is that elusive skilled big that we need.  And if we can add in a player like Simons, that is a great asset to have for depth or a future trade.  Brown is still the best player though so tough decision.  As I said in another thread, after what we have seen this playoff run, I think this type of deal involving Brown is more likely.

With Markkanen's improvement, is Jaylen Brown still the best player in this deal? Why is Jaylen better than Markkanen?

Just my opinion, and I tend to be fairly high on Markkanen.  Putting up inflated numbers on a bad team does not change my impression of Markkanen.  He is right there in that Adebayo, Sabonis range, if that.  Brown is a player that could be a team's #1.  I like Markkanen but I would not trade Brown for him straight up.  I think Brown has more value.  But say Markkanen and Clarkson?  I could see that.

So if Markkanen is in the Adebayo or D Sabonis range, where do you rank Jaylen Brown?

Who is in Jaylen's range as a player? What level of player?

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2023, 05:10:42 PM »

Online Vermont Green

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According to the All-NBA voting, Brown is right there with Butler, Curry, Mitchell, Lillard, Fox.  This is not entirely affirming of his rank or whatever but I don't think I am alone in having Brown a tier up on Markkanen.  Of course if you go by Brown's last several games, you would come to a very different conclusion but I am not letting myself fall for the recency bias.

I think Markkanen or Sabonis or Adebayo are all very good, all star level bigs.  All have a lot of value, just not quite as much as Brown.  Just one fan's opinion.

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2023, 06:51:40 PM »

Offline mobilija

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Markanenn may have more value due to position. But Brown has proven value as a constantly improving player w 2 way ability and work ethic. Markanenn has been up and down in his career thus far and only showed he can be all star level on low level teams, plus questionable defense.

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2023, 07:43:35 PM »

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2023, 08:40:38 PM »

Offline mobilija

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.

I think creating a hierarchy of who is better in a vaccum is useful for trade value but you have to take into account team needs and development. The original proposal was an attempt to get the Celtics a PF (team need based on OP). I also wanted to be realistic and guessed that Utah would want draft capital (the chance to get a potential top player and not a veteran all star, ie why shuffle chairs on the titanic?)

FWIW i would rank the 3 Bigs and Jaylen like this:

Bam. Easily best player. Foundational in that he makes others better defensively and offensively, creating and getting his own. At a highly valued position due to lack of league depth.

Sabonis. Also foundational, in that he creates for others, and a position of value but lacks the high end defense (great rebounding tho) and creation of his own shot.

Jaylen. Wouldn't consider him foundational bc he doesn't elevate others around him but a reliable two way player. Scores at all levels and rebounds really well at his position.

Markanenn. Scores well at a position of high value but hasn't shown consistently that he makes a team better, especially if he isn’t the focal point. Rebounds decently. Defense...I actually dont really know but bybthe little I've seen of him and his stats...marginal to average.

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2023, 09:01:15 PM »

Offline greenhead85

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Porzingis. Still young (27yo). Can bring in scoring, rebounding and inside defense.

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2023, 09:21:35 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.
Is Jaylen a top 20 player?  He might be, but I don't think it is a given. This is always the point I seem to diverge from the board because I don't think it is all that clear.

And before anyone says name 20 guys better here is how I roughly see the tiers

Argument for best player on planet - Jokic, Giannis (2)
Best argument for top 5 - Curry, Durant, Embiid (5)
Clear top 10 - Tatum, Lillard, Doncic (8 )
Clear top 10 on a good day - Lebron, Davis, Kawhi, Zion (12)
Argument for top 10 - Morant, Booker, Butler, SGA (16)
Argument for top 15 - Mitchell, Harden, George, Young, Beal, Edwards (22)
Argument for top 20 - Brown, Ingram, J. Murray, Fox, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Holiday, Siakam, Gobert, LaVine (32)

So that is 32 players (31 better or in Brown's tier) and that doesn't even include Kyrie, DeRozan, LaMelo, Klay, Maxey, Garland, D. Murray or obviously the rising stars like Cunningham, Banchero, Wemby, Mobley

In other words, this board loves to call Brown a top 20 player and it certainly isn't clear that he is one (and that isn't trade value, Brown obviously has more trade value than someone like Harden, but if you were just ranking the players, Harden in my view is better and more impactful mostly because of his passing).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2023, 09:26:37 PM by Moranis »
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Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2023, 09:27:30 PM »

Offline Who

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.
Is Jaylen a top 20 player?  He might be, but I don't think it is a given. This is always the point I seem to diverge from the board because I don't think it is all that clear.

And before anyone says name 20 guys better here is how I roughly see the tiers

Argument for best player on planet - Jokic, Giannis (2)
Best argument for top 5 - Curry, Durant, Embiid (5)
Clear top 10 - Tatum, Lillard, Doncic (8)
Clear top 10 on a good day - Lebron, Davis, Kawhi, Zion (12)
Argument for top 10 - Morant, Booker, Butler, SGA (16)
Argument for top 15 - Mitchell, Harden, George, Young, Beal, Edwards (22)
Argument for top 20 - Brown, Ingram, J. Murray, Fox, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Holiday, Siakam, Gobert, LaVine (32)

So that is 32 players and doesn't include Kyrie, DeRozan, LaMelo, Klay, Maxey, Garland, D. Murray or obviously the rising stars like Cunningham, Banchero, Wemby, Mobley

In other words, this board loves to call Brown a top 20 player and it certainly isn't clear that he is one.

Yeah, I have been wondering the same -- whether Jaylen actually is a top 20 player or not -- the last few months.

I am not sure he is. I once was. Not anymore.

Not that Jaylen has gotten worse but that I over-rated him when I called him a top 20 player.

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2023, 10:47:33 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.
Is Jaylen a top 20 player?  He might be, but I don't think it is a given. This is always the point I seem to diverge from the board because I don't think it is all that clear.

And before anyone says name 20 guys better here is how I roughly see the tiers

Argument for best player on planet - Jokic, Giannis (2)
Best argument for top 5 - Curry, Durant, Embiid (5)
Clear top 10 - Tatum, Lillard, Doncic (8 )
Clear top 10 on a good day - Lebron, Davis, Kawhi, Zion (12)
Argument for top 10 - Morant, Booker, Butler, SGA (16)
Argument for top 15 - Mitchell, Harden, George, Young, Beal, Edwards (22)
Argument for top 20 - Brown, Ingram, J. Murray, Fox, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Holiday, Siakam, Gobert, LaVine (32)

So that is 32 players (31 better or in Brown's tier) and that doesn't even include Kyrie, DeRozan, LaMelo, Klay, Maxey, Garland, D. Murray or obviously the rising stars like Cunningham, Banchero, Wemby, Mobley

In other words, this board loves to call Brown a top 20 player and it certainly isn't clear that he is one (and that isn't trade value, Brown obviously has more trade value than someone like Harden, but if you were just ranking the players, Harden in my view is better and more impactful mostly because of his passing).

Counterargument:  All-NBA second team


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Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2023, 10:53:11 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.
Is Jaylen a top 20 player?  He might be, but I don't think it is a given. This is always the point I seem to diverge from the board because I don't think it is all that clear.

And before anyone says name 20 guys better here is how I roughly see the tiers

Argument for best player on planet - Jokic, Giannis (2)
Best argument for top 5 - Curry, Durant, Embiid (5)
Clear top 10 - Tatum, Lillard, Doncic (8 )
Clear top 10 on a good day - Lebron, Davis, Kawhi, Zion (12)
Argument for top 10 - Morant, Booker, Butler, SGA (16)
Argument for top 15 - Mitchell, Harden, George, Young, Beal, Edwards (22)
Argument for top 20 - Brown, Ingram, J. Murray, Fox, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Holiday, Siakam, Gobert, LaVine (32)

So that is 32 players (31 better or in Brown's tier) and that doesn't even include Kyrie, DeRozan, LaMelo, Klay, Maxey, Garland, D. Murray or obviously the rising stars like Cunningham, Banchero, Wemby, Mobley

In other words, this board loves to call Brown a top 20 player and it certainly isn't clear that he is one (and that isn't trade value, Brown obviously has more trade value than someone like Harden, but if you were just ranking the players, Harden in my view is better and more impactful mostly because of his passing).
Beal, Edwards and George a whole tier above Brown is so hilariously on brand for you
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Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2023, 11:09:29 PM »

Offline Who

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.
Is Jaylen a top 20 player?  He might be, but I don't think it is a given. This is always the point I seem to diverge from the board because I don't think it is all that clear.

And before anyone says name 20 guys better here is how I roughly see the tiers

Argument for best player on planet - Jokic, Giannis (2)
Best argument for top 5 - Curry, Durant, Embiid (5)
Clear top 10 - Tatum, Lillard, Doncic (8 )
Clear top 10 on a good day - Lebron, Davis, Kawhi, Zion (12)
Argument for top 10 - Morant, Booker, Butler, SGA (16)
Argument for top 15 - Mitchell, Harden, George, Young, Beal, Edwards (22)
Argument for top 20 - Brown, Ingram, J. Murray, Fox, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Holiday, Siakam, Gobert, LaVine (32)

So that is 32 players (31 better or in Brown's tier) and that doesn't even include Kyrie, DeRozan, LaMelo, Klay, Maxey, Garland, D. Murray or obviously the rising stars like Cunningham, Banchero, Wemby, Mobley

In other words, this board loves to call Brown a top 20 player and it certainly isn't clear that he is one (and that isn't trade value, Brown obviously has more trade value than someone like Harden, but if you were just ranking the players, Harden in my view is better and more impactful mostly because of his passing).
Beal, Edwards and George a whole tier above Brown is so hilariously on brand for you

I agree with PG13 being a tier higher but I'd have Beal and A Edwards in the same tier as Jaylen.

I'd also drop Morant down to that Jaylen tier. And Trae.

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2023, 11:18:54 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.
Is Jaylen a top 20 player?  He might be, but I don't think it is a given. This is always the point I seem to diverge from the board because I don't think it is all that clear.

And before anyone says name 20 guys better here is how I roughly see the tiers

Argument for best player on planet - Jokic, Giannis (2)
Best argument for top 5 - Curry, Durant, Embiid (5)
Clear top 10 - Tatum, Lillard, Doncic (8 )
Clear top 10 on a good day - Lebron, Davis, Kawhi, Zion (12)
Argument for top 10 - Morant, Booker, Butler, SGA (16)
Argument for top 15 - Mitchell, Harden, George, Young, Beal, Edwards (22)
Argument for top 20 - Brown, Ingram, J. Murray, Fox, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Holiday, Siakam, Gobert, LaVine (32)

So that is 32 players (31 better or in Brown's tier) and that doesn't even include Kyrie, DeRozan, LaMelo, Klay, Maxey, Garland, D. Murray or obviously the rising stars like Cunningham, Banchero, Wemby, Mobley

In other words, this board loves to call Brown a top 20 player and it certainly isn't clear that he is one (and that isn't trade value, Brown obviously has more trade value than someone like Harden, but if you were just ranking the players, Harden in my view is better and more impactful mostly because of his passing).
Beal, Edwards and George a whole tier above Brown is so hilariously on brand for you
the brand of being correct.  Perfectly fine with me.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Who is out there for legitimate PFs?
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2023, 11:52:11 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I have typically / consistently rated Jaylen as a top 20 player over the last 2 years or so. However, I do feel he is closer in value to guys in that 20-25 range than he is to players in that 10-15 range. Essentially more an All-Star than an All-Pro.

It is interesting to wonder about guys like D Sabonis, Bam and Markkanen. I would rate them more in the 20s. So I'd value Jaylen slightly higher but on a similar tier to them.

So, an interesting question: If you are BOS do you trade Jaylen for Sabonis, Bam or Markkanen? Then how about the opposite, if you are SAC do you trade Sabonis for Jaylen? Utah trade Markkanen for Jaylen? Miami trade Bam for Jaylen?

SAC: I would not trade D Sabonis for Jaylen even though I rate Jaylen as slightly better. D Sabonis is a much better fit for their team and makes them a better team than Jaylen would.

MIA: I would not trade Bam for Jaylen. Bam & Jimmy are a better duo than Jaylen & Jimmy would be. Miami would struggle without Bam's interior presence and high post facilitator role on offense. His replacement would likely be a low skill center. MIA is better with Bam.

UTA: Not sure. Maybe. Could go either way. With Jaylen's contract about to expire, it would surely be no but otherwise it is a 50-50 call.

BOS: I wouldn't trade Jaylen for D Sabonis. I have at times been tempted by Bam for Jaylen but generally have been against it because Bam is inconsistent and hurt a lot. It is tempting when Bam is playing well but those bad spells loom large. The Markkanen one is new and interesting, tempting. Maybe.


If Jaylen is truly on a tier above these guys, shouldn't be an easy yes for these teams. Of course we'll take Jaylen. That offer is too good to turn down. Even if a bit awkward for team construction.

I see him on the same tier albeit near the top of the tier.
Is Jaylen a top 20 player?  He might be, but I don't think it is a given. This is always the point I seem to diverge from the board because I don't think it is all that clear.

And before anyone says name 20 guys better here is how I roughly see the tiers

Argument for best player on planet - Jokic, Giannis (2)
Best argument for top 5 - Curry, Durant, Embiid (5)
Clear top 10 - Tatum, Lillard, Doncic (8 )
Clear top 10 on a good day - Lebron, Davis, Kawhi, Zion (12)
Argument for top 10 - Morant, Booker, Butler, SGA (16)
Argument for top 15 - Mitchell, Harden, George, Young, Beal, Edwards (22)
Argument for top 20 - Brown, Ingram, J. Murray, Fox, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Holiday, Siakam, Gobert, LaVine (32)

So that is 32 players (31 better or in Brown's tier) and that doesn't even include Kyrie, DeRozan, LaMelo, Klay, Maxey, Garland, D. Murray or obviously the rising stars like Cunningham, Banchero, Wemby, Mobley

In other words, this board loves to call Brown a top 20 player and it certainly isn't clear that he is one (and that isn't trade value, Brown obviously has more trade value than someone like Harden, but if you were just ranking the players, Harden in my view is better and more impactful mostly because of his passing).
Beal, Edwards and George a whole tier above Brown is so hilariously on brand for you
the brand of being correct.  Perfectly fine with me.
That is definitely not your brand :)
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)