Will the celtics make a coaching change?

[GreenBoomer]

Totally agree

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Should they? Yes

Will they? No

I think Brad won't do anything to be honest with you. He seems like a guy that holds on too long instead of making a tough choice.

fire jo and brad

[Kernewek]

I think this conversation would be much more productive if you stopped inserting incorrect presumptions about what I believe or 'want'.

okay, maybe you don't "want" mazzulla back. but you  at least think that he will be back.

i'm just stating why I believe he wont. As much as Brad may like him, once you lose the locker-room its over. I dont think Brad ever lost "trust" from the celtics roster. I think at some point they just stopped listening to him. I don't recall any players calling him out publicly.

I just think there is a big difference between Brads situation (and many of the other veteran coaches) to the celtics situation.

I think so  too - jambr has more or less posted what I actually think: that the issue really boils down to our hot start and the removal of the interim tag, because it makes whatever happens with Mazza an official demotion.

That said, we need to acknowledge the hindsight for that and remember that when he got the 'official' nod from the organisation, the Celtics were 42-17* and it was really looking like an unbreakable continuity from the end of last season - especially without Timelord to start the season (and I think we all agree that if Timelord isn't injured during the Finals, then we stood a good chance of winning it all) - even if the record was unsustainable (as a lot of us said at the time). The guy was also the longest-tenured member of the coaching staff, and the whole idea behind 'next man up' while picking someone who predated Udoka (and Udoka's assistant tree) had to be attractive to Stevens and Wyc, given what we know about the reasons behind Udoka's dismissal.


* https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1626235206498930690

I'm on the record saying that coaches aren't as important as the players are. I still believe that, 100%. It doesn't mean coaches are unimportant, but I could see this team running it back with a new staff and the same nucleus and making it back to the Finals - and if that new staff includes Mazza doing something that isn't being the head coach, that's more than palatable to me.

[cman88]

I think this conversation would be much more productive if you stopped inserting incorrect presumptions about what I believe or 'want'.

okay, maybe you don't "want" mazzulla back. but you  at least think that he will be back.

i'm just stating why I believe he wont. As much as Brad may like him, once you lose the locker-room its over. I dont think Brad ever lost "trust" from the celtics roster. I think at some point they just stopped listening to him. I don't recall any players calling him out publicly.

I just think there is a big difference between Brads situation (and many of the other veteran coaches) to the celtics situation.

I think so  too - jambr has more or less posted what I actually think: that the issue really boils down to our hot start and the removal of the interim tag, because it makes whatever happens with Mazza an official demotion.

That said, we need to acknowledge the hindsight for that and remember that when he got the 'official' nod from the organisation, the Celtics were 42-17* and it was really looking like an unbreakable continuity from the end of last season - especially without Timelord to start the season (and I think we all agree that if Timelord isn't injured during the Finals, then we stood a good chance of winning it all) - even if the record was unsustainable (as a lot of us said at the time). The guy was also the longest-tenured member of the coaching staff, and the whole idea behind 'next man up' while picking someone who predated Udoka (and Udoka's assistant tree) had to be attractive to Stevens and Wyc, given what we know about the reasons behind Udoka's dismissal.


* https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1626235206498930690

I'm on the record saying that coaches aren't as important as the players are. I still believe that, 100%. It doesn't mean coaches are unimportant, but I could see this team running it back with a new staff and the same nucleus and making it back to the Finals - and if that new staff includes Mazza doing something that isn't being the head coach, that's more than palatable to me.

it is what it is though. Teams are firing championship coaches for less, because they haven't delivered in a season or two. he's clearly in over his head and lost the locker room.

the celtics shouldnt worry about hurting "joes feelings" as a reason to demote him to another role.

[Kernewek]

I agree with that, I just think it makes the situation surrounding finding a new head coach a bit more difficult.

I also don't think that a coaching change fundamentally alters the problems that we saw with the current roster this season, since they've played the same way under three different head coaches now.

[wdleehi]

It really depends what is happening in the locker room.   

[cman88]

I agree with that, I just think it makes the situation surrounding finding a new head coach a bit more difficult.

I also don't think that a coaching change fundamentally alters the problems that we saw with the current roster this season, since they've played the same way under three different head coaches now.

I think clearly though with the finals loss last year you never thought they lost their heart and gave up.

this year they gave up and lost their defensive identity. that's all on coaching.  if Ime was here we would've been trapping jimmy and closing out on their shooters.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

I agree with that, I just think it makes the situation surrounding finding a new head coach a bit more difficult.

I also don't think that a coaching change fundamentally alters the problems that we saw with the current roster this season, since they've played the same way under three different head coaches now.

and that is why we need a roster shakeup.

sadly they forgot how to play D without Ime

that then is a dumb and weak team.

how do u forget how to play D?

so they are lazy and ime just grilled them and held them responsible sounds more like it

[mobilija]

Does anyone have a link to Mazzulla or the players saying that the locker room is lost or players don't trust?

I think this is as close as you'll see:

Jared Weiss @JaredWeissNBA

Joe Mazzulla was asked if he has lost the locker room: "Yeah, it’s why I need to be better to figure out what this team needs." Why has that happened? "I’m not sure."

“Yeah, that’s where I have to be better, figure out what this team needs to make sure that they’re connected, they’re physical and they’re together by the time we step on the floor,” Mazzulla said.

When asked about what had led to the potential disconnect, Mazzulla replied, “I’m not sure.”

That's Joe suggesting the team is not connected and together right now.  After that, it just gets vague, presumably because nobody wants to call anybody out directly with the series still going on:

Jaylen Brown: "We can point fingers. In reality, it’s just embarrassing."

Al Horford on defensive identity: "We have lost it."

The quote by Mazzula saying he needs to figure out what they need to be connected says it all for me. He had all year to figure that out and he still doesn’t know. Again this is on Brad and Wyc for throwing this guy at the helm with a championship roster. But now you have to question how fragile the two J’s are.

There is no debate about our stars fragility. This has always been the case. Its always been very important to surround the Js with guys that dont upset the apple cart. This is not new.

[Roy H.]

There is no debate about our stars fragility. This has always been the case. Its always been very important to surround the Js with guys that dont upset the apple cart. This is not new.

Honestly, maybe it's time that we brought in some guys who would upset that apple cart.  Brad seems to prefer passive guys in the locker room.  I'd love to see some vets come in with some passion and fire. 

[angryguy77]

I agree with that, I just think it makes the situation surrounding finding a new head coach a bit more difficult.

I also don't think that a coaching change fundamentally alters the problems that we saw with the current roster this season, since they've played the same way under three different head coaches now.

That's not entirely true. Under Ime, they didn't consistently play like they are under Joe. Ime didn't fix some of the deeper issues, but he reached them in ways Brad and Joe couldn't.

[mobilija]

There is no debate about our stars fragility. This has always been the case. Its always been very important to surround the Js with guys that dont upset the apple cart. This is not new.

Honestly, maybe it's time that we brought in some guys who would upset that apple cart.  Brad seems to prefer passive guys in the locker room.  I'd love to see some vets come in with some passion and fire.

You might be right, almost suggested it in my post.

However, in past seasons we've seen this team easily implode bc of locker room adversity

I hear Dillon Brooks is a free agent.....threw up in my mouth s little bit just now.

[Kernewek]

I agree with that, I just think it makes the situation surrounding finding a new head coach a bit more difficult.

I also don't think that a coaching change fundamentally alters the problems that we saw with the current roster this season, since they've played the same way under three different head coaches now.

That's not entirely true. Under Ime, they didn't consistently play like they are under Joe. Ime didn't fix some of the deeper issues, but he reached them in ways Brad and Joe couldn't.

For a brief window of time (the back half of a season) and after a middling first half of a season that had many on here, and elsewhere, calling for Ime to go. The complaints from the Jayson & Jaylen duo are so regular they can be cut and pasted and apply to the present day, regardless of coaching and regardless of series:

Hate to say it, but I agree. Not during the season, but as soon as it's over. [Udoka has] taken this teams problems and made them worse.

Tatum and Brown have regressed. And yet we keep doing the same things offensively. Same hot garbage core lineup, same hot garbage offensive scheme, if you want to call it that.

The team is unwatchable, they don't play complimentary basketball with each other. But fact is, look at the box score, Tatum & Brown combine to shoot 15 of 39, what the other 8 or 10 guys who played did is largely irrelevant. We can't win with those 2 guys shooting so poorly as frequently as they have, and both have taken a big step back in efficiency, especially Tatum.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105768.210

Last night was a recurring theme. Go up double-digits, go cold and slow on offense, and then let up monster runs - even to average or worse teams.  Last night Portland closed with a 20-5 run.   During these runs the Cs look like can’t stop anyone.  They give up on rebounds, they leave good shooters wide open.  Nurkic and their shooters feasted last night in the last 7 minutes. So if the Cs are ok defensively but then have significant lapses (btw the 4th quarter run wasn’t the only time the Cs had a solid lead and squandered it), then it doesn’t matter if they are the 8th best defensive team statistically, in real life when it matters they are awful. No  stat would change my mind on that.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105768.195

Re: Does Ime know he can play more than 8 players?

No he does not.

He believes the 8-player limit is part of the CBA agreement.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=dgscqmt0426bj8mb02pskform5&topic=106355.0

…Ime has got to get Jayson and Jaylen back to playing team ball like they did back in 2017-2018. If he is trying everything and they are both just insisting on doing their own thing, tuning him out in the process, then Brad needs to send one of them packing…getting so sick of this .500 chemistry/iso ball…

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=aesatr5tk8jk9347gpcl9gcqvk&topic=105769.0

We desperately needed a very good offensive mind to revamp Ime's predictable and stagnant half-court sets that had very little off-ball movement - kinda the way Thibbs ran the defense for Doc Rivers. Did Ime not see that ? Surely Brad did. I would go so far as to put half the blame for Tatum and Brown's forced dribble turnovers on the fact that they had few options to go to with the shot clock winding down.

[/quote]
https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=106933.0

That's what let them down. The IQ section. That contributed to the turnovers, because they made the wrong reads at times, passing into heavy traffic trying to make a grandstand play (Smartacus a big culprit), dribbling the ball into a crowd of 3 defenders and trying to do a behind the back (Jaylen) before losing their handle and then trying to do a kickout directly behind them (Jaylen again), or trying to milk a foul driving into contact and not taking care of the ball and letting it get swatted away (Tatum). Panicking when they get punished in transition by making careless passes. Highlight passes and trick moves are what end up on ESPN but sometimes you have to hit singles and not go for home runs. You need to be able to make the right reads to know when to attempt a Hail Mary play. We have too many of those where we go WOW when it succeeds (about 13% of the time) but curse at our TV when it doesn't (87% of the time).

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=106759.0

Huh ?

Ime's ATO plays consist of giving Tatum the ball and clearing everyone else out of the way so he can go 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 or however many defenders he dribbles into before putting up a heavily-contested step-back fadeaway of some sort.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105768.225

Edit: I guess the last one doesn't apply as much to this season since Mazzulla doesn't call as many timeouts



My point isn't to put any of these posters on blast, but to illustrate that things tend to fall apart for this team the same way, over and over. We can't put that all on the coaching, but likewise we can't put one hot run (Feb 2022 through the Finals) on the coach and discount the fact that the team started this season, without Udoka, off 42-17.

[angryguy77]

I agree with that, I just think it makes the situation surrounding finding a new head coach a bit more difficult.

I also don't think that a coaching change fundamentally alters the problems that we saw with the current roster this season, since they've played the same way under three different head coaches now.

That's not entirely true. Under Ime, they didn't consistently play like they are under Joe. Ime didn't fix some of the deeper issues, but he reached them in ways Brad and Joe couldn't.

For a brief window of time (the back half of a season) and after a middling first half of a season that had many on here, and elsewhere, calling for Ime to go. The complaints from the Jayson & Jaylen duo are so regular they can be cut and pasted and apply to the present day, regardless of coaching and regardless of series:

Hate to say it, but I agree. Not during the season, but as soon as it's over. [Udoka has] taken this teams problems and made them worse.

Tatum and Brown have regressed. And yet we keep doing the same things offensively. Same hot garbage core lineup, same hot garbage offensive scheme, if you want to call it that.

The team is unwatchable, they don't play complimentary basketball with each other. But fact is, look at the box score, Tatum & Brown combine to shoot 15 of 39, what the other 8 or 10 guys who played did is largely irrelevant. We can't win with those 2 guys shooting so poorly as frequently as they have, and both have taken a big step back in efficiency, especially Tatum.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105768.210

Last night was a recurring theme. Go up double-digits, go cold and slow on offense, and then let up monster runs - even to average or worse teams.  Last night Portland closed with a 20-5 run.   During these runs the Cs look like can’t stop anyone.  They give up on rebounds, they leave good shooters wide open.  Nurkic and their shooters feasted last night in the last 7 minutes. So if the Cs are ok defensively but then have significant lapses (btw the 4th quarter run wasn’t the only time the Cs had a solid lead and squandered it), then it doesn’t matter if they are the 8th best defensive team statistically, in real life when it matters they are awful. No  stat would change my mind on that.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105768.195

Re: Does Ime know he can play more than 8 players?

No he does not.

He believes the 8-player limit is part of the CBA agreement.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=dgscqmt0426bj8mb02pskform5&topic=106355.0

…Ime has got to get Jayson and Jaylen back to playing team ball like they did back in 2017-2018. If he is trying everything and they are both just insisting on doing their own thing, tuning him out in the process, then Brad needs to send one of them packing…getting so sick of this .500 chemistry/iso ball…

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=aesatr5tk8jk9347gpcl9gcqvk&topic=105769.0

We desperately needed a very good offensive mind to revamp Ime's predictable and stagnant half-court sets that had very little off-ball movement - kinda the way Thibbs ran the defense for Doc Rivers. Did Ime not see that ? Surely Brad did. I would go so far as to put half the blame for Tatum and Brown's forced dribble turnovers on the fact that they had few options to go to with the shot clock winding down.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=106933.0

That's what let them down. The IQ section. That contributed to the turnovers, because they made the wrong reads at times, passing into heavy traffic trying to make a grandstand play (Smartacus a big culprit), dribbling the ball into a crowd of 3 defenders and trying to do a behind the back (Jaylen) before losing their handle and then trying to do a kickout directly behind them (Jaylen again), or trying to milk a foul driving into contact and not taking care of the ball and letting it get swatted away (Tatum). Panicking when they get punished in transition by making careless passes. Highlight passes and trick moves are what end up on ESPN but sometimes you have to hit singles and not go for home runs. You need to be able to make the right reads to know when to attempt a Hail Mary play. We have too many of those where we go WOW when it succeeds (about 13% of the time) but curse at our TV when it doesn't (87% of the time).

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=106759.0

Huh ?

Ime's ATO plays consist of giving Tatum the ball and clearing everyone else out of the way so he can go 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 or however many defenders he dribbles into before putting up a heavily-contested step-back fadeaway of some sort.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105768.225

Edit: I guess the last one doesn't apply as much to this season since Mazzulla doesn't call as many timeouts



My point isn't to put any of these posters on blast, but to illustrate that things tend to fall apart for this team the same way, over and over. We can't put that all on the coaching, but likewise we can't put one hot run (Feb 2022 through the Finals) on the coach and discount the fact that the team started this season, without Udoka, off 42-17.
[/quote]


Never claimed Ime was perfect, I agree his offense did need some work. That said his flaws were way less detrimental to the team than Joe's.
Out of the 3 coaches they've had, he's the one who squeezed the most out of this group and did so with less talent and health than Joe.

Had Ime stayed on, maybe he ends up being just a hair short of what the team needed, IDK. What I do know is Joe isn't the guy and have been saying as much for better part of the season.

[jpotter33]

I agree with that, I just think it makes the situation surrounding finding a new head coach a bit more difficult.

I also don't think that a coaching change fundamentally alters the problems that we saw with the current roster this season, since they've played the same way under three different head coaches now.

That's not entirely true. Under Ime, they didn't consistently play like they are under Joe. Ime didn't fix some of the deeper issues, but he reached them in ways Brad and Joe couldn't.

For a brief window of time (the back half of a season) and after a middling first half of a season that had many on here, and elsewhere, calling for Ime to go. The complaints from the Jayson & Jaylen duo are so regular they can be cut and pasted and apply to the present day, regardless of coaching and regardless of series:

Hate to say it, but I agree. Not during the season, but as soon as it's over. [Udoka has] taken this teams problems and made them worse.

Tatum and Brown have regressed. And yet we keep doing the same things offensively. Same hot garbage core lineup, same hot garbage offensive scheme, if you want to call it that.

The team is unwatchable, they don't play complimentary basketball with each other. But fact is, look at the box score, Tatum & Brown combine to shoot 15 of 39, what the other 8 or 10 guys who played did is largely irrelevant. We can't win with those 2 guys shooting so poorly as frequently as they have, and both have taken a big step back in efficiency, especially Tatum.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105768.210

Last night was a recurring theme. Go up double-digits, go cold and slow on offense, and then let up monster runs - even to average or worse teams.  Last night Portland closed with a 20-5 run.   During these runs the Cs look like can’t stop anyone.  They give up on rebounds, they leave good shooters wide open.  Nurkic and their shooters feasted last night in the last 7 minutes. So if the Cs are ok defensively but then have significant lapses (btw the 4th quarter run wasn’t the only time the Cs had a solid lead and squandered it), then it doesn’t matter if they are the 8th best defensive team statistically, in real life when it matters they are awful. No  stat would change my mind on that.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105768.195

Re: Does Ime know he can play more than 8 players?

No he does not.

He believes the 8-player limit is part of the CBA agreement.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=dgscqmt0426bj8mb02pskform5&topic=106355.0

…Ime has got to get Jayson and Jaylen back to playing team ball like they did back in 2017-2018. If he is trying everything and they are both just insisting on doing their own thing, tuning him out in the process, then Brad needs to send one of them packing…getting so sick of this .500 chemistry/iso ball…

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=aesatr5tk8jk9347gpcl9gcqvk&topic=105769.0

We desperately needed a very good offensive mind to revamp Ime's predictable and stagnant half-court sets that had very little off-ball movement - kinda the way Thibbs ran the defense for Doc Rivers. Did Ime not see that ? Surely Brad did. I would go so far as to put half the blame for Tatum and Brown's forced dribble turnovers on the fact that they had few options to go to with the shot clock winding down.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=106933.0

That's what let them down. The IQ section. That contributed to the turnovers, because they made the wrong reads at times, passing into heavy traffic trying to make a grandstand play (Smartacus a big culprit), dribbling the ball into a crowd of 3 defenders and trying to do a behind the back (Jaylen) before losing their handle and then trying to do a kickout directly behind them (Jaylen again), or trying to milk a foul driving into contact and not taking care of the ball and letting it get swatted away (Tatum). Panicking when they get punished in transition by making careless passes. Highlight passes and trick moves are what end up on ESPN but sometimes you have to hit singles and not go for home runs. You need to be able to make the right reads to know when to attempt a Hail Mary play. We have too many of those where we go WOW when it succeeds (about 13% of the time) but curse at our TV when it doesn't (87% of the time).

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=106759.0


My point isn't to put any of these posters on blast, but to illustrate that things tend to fall apart for this team the same way, over and over. We can't put that all on the coaching, but likewise we can't put one hot run (Feb 2022 through the Finals) on the coach and discount the fact that the team started this season, without Udoka, off 42-17.
[/quote]

This is completely ignoring the timing and context of how everything unfolded.

Ime remolded an essentially broken team into a consistent elite defensive force that gave them a chance every night and got them to the Finals. They looked engaged and played with intensity every night, and Ime never looked over his head, even while making some mistakes through the year (overplaying some guys in blowouts, drop coverage against GSW, etc.). Thry certainly never quit on Ime either. They weren’t perfect, and they still struggled offensively with turnovers and late-game execution at times, though it looked like a simple talent problem that was supposed to be remedied by Brogdon and Gallo.

Joe rode that hot streak and chemistry developed from Ime and completely dismantled it over the course of the season. He inappropriately changed the identity of this team from a consistent defensive force to a streaky team that exclusively relied on hitting three pointers to be great. Along with this came increasingly inconsistent efforts to the point of the team quitting on this team. And worst of all, Joe has looked completely clueless and incompetent to fix any of it all season. He’s made regular blunders to end games, admitted his fault, and then gone out and made the same mistakes again.

Trying to equivocate these two seasons is just revisionist history. It was not simply just a “hot run”. This team was fundamentally different in the vast majority of aspects, especially in the character abd overall style department. Theses seasons unfolded in completely opposite fashions, and the coaches each played integral roles in how each season ended. They are not remotely similar.