Inconsistency, poor effort and blown leads

[Roy H.]

The Tatum / Brown / Smart nucleus has now had three coaches:  Brad, Ime and Joe.  Despite different philosophies, one thing has remained constant:  the players only compete sometimes.  They play down to their competition.  They blow leads.  They commit stupid turnovers.  They lose their composure.

So, it's not solely a coaching issue.  And, it's not a blogger theory, either:  the players have all talked about not bringing effort, not doing the "little things", not playing hard particularly on defense, etc.

That leaves big questions:

Is it fixable?  How?  Why hasn't it changed?

Is this the inverse of the "Heat culture"?  Do the Celtics as an organization just have a lackadaisical approach?

Do other teams go through this with the frequency that the Celts do?

Is it that the players aren't "hungry" enough?  Is it the money?  Their generation?

[angryguy77]

It's not a coaching thing, but it will take a coach to mitigate it or eradicate it.

During the season, Ime and Joe should've sat guys games following a lackluster performance. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. What I know is not holding these guys accountable contributed to us not winning a title last year, and may do so this year.

Or we find a coach that reaches them somehow in ways the others could not.

I don't believe this is something that gets cured with age, they need a strong message sent. If they revolt, oh well, the current methods haven't won a title yet anyway.

I do think it's a combo of the generation plus experiencing too much success too early.

[Who]

I wonder if it has something to do with the skill-sets of Tatum & Jaylen. Neither guy has the type of offensive game where the offense revolves around them. A heliocentric type game. A guy who can control the offense with his ball-handling and passing as well as with his scoring. Like LeBron could when he was younger. Or Luka. Or Nash. Or even Trae Young.

That this leads to a lack of offensive control for a team. That they are more cogs in the machine rather than the heliocentric piece that everything revolves around. Similar to Kevin Durant. Durant doesn't control his teams. He elevates them but he never runs them. It is always others who run his team.

Kawhi Leonard is one guy who had a similar game but appeared to have more frequent control of games. How? I don't know. Was it his defensive impact?

Some big guys like Duncan or KG could control games with their defense & rebounding. That clearly isn't Jaylen or Tatum either. So they do not have the skill-set to control games offensively or defensively.

[Vermont Green]

I got into a debate about Tatum in another thread, and it seemed to agitate a lot of people.  Game 1 was only one game, a statistically small sample size, but the MIA team responds to Jimmy Butler in the same way that Garnet could impact a team.  By setting the tone of a 48 minute disciplined, focused effort, the team responds/follows.  As Who said just above, Brown and Tatum are not that type of player, at least not yet. 

They have trouble maintaining their focus and concentration.  You see it in the sloppy turnovers, other little things.  Getting high and doing silly little celebratory gestures.  Getting frustrated and complaining to the refs.  Brown doesn't do the gestures and complaining as much but he looses concentration and has the sloppy turnovers a lot.  Of course the upside is that Tatum can get hot in a way that Butler or KG couldn't and put up 50 points.  This is just who is is as a player and a leader right now.

I truly believe that Tatum in particular is on the verge of figuring this out, of mastering this aspect of the game.  Until he does, the inconsistency is going to continue for Tatum and the team.  I don't think this is an effort thing.  I believe that both Brown and Tatum play their hearts out.  They try as hard as Butler or KG or anyone.  It is something a little different that he has to master.

[Goldstar88]

This is why I’ve been saying that the results of a game are 80-90% on the players. Joe was not great yesterday. The thing with Pritchard playing and White only getting 21 minutes still puzzles me, but they didn’t lose because of that. The biggest reason for the loss, by far, was due to their poor effort on defense and being careless with the ball.

[gouki88]

Is this a unique phenomenon to our team? I don't know that there are any different. Who raised it in another thread, but the volume of 3 point shooting alongside the restrictions on how defence can be played naturally lead to volatility. I don't know of any NBA teams who don't go through this up and down similarly to us.

We only really notice it when we're on the down, and we attribute it to our own errors. When we are on the up, or another team is committing these mistakes against us, we only seem to see it through the lens of what we're doing differently.

Miami does it too. Their G5 loss to New York saw them disappear in the middle 2 quarters, and Butler did nothing. Miami gave up a 46 point quarter to Milwaukee without Giannis, and lost the game by 16. All teams lose focus, it is how they respond. We usually respond well

[Kernewek]

Is this a unique phenomenon to our team?

No.

[Moranis]

Tatum, Brown, and Smart quite simply don't fit all that well together.  Smart just plays dumb.  Passionate, but dumb.  If Smart was smarter (pun intended) he'd fit much better and have more of an impact.  Tatum isn't a vocal leader.  More a follow my lead type leader.  Brown wants to lead but quite simply is worse at basically everything than Tatum is, while also being at his best at SF where Tatum is at his best.  They just aren't a great fit as a duo or a trio.  Neither Brown nor Smart compliment Tatum all that well.  That is why Tatum's best lineups are with a defensive big, floor spacing big, and two shooters.  Against Miami, I think Boston's best lineup is White, Brogdon, Tatum, Grant, and Al, but then you don't have Brown and Smart in the game which is problematic since Brown is the 2nd best player on the team and Smart is probably 4th or 5th best.

[Celtic_Pride777]

The Tatum / Brown / Smart nucleus has now had three coaches:  Brad, Ime and Joe.  Despite different philosophies, one thing has remained constant:  the players only compete sometimes.  They play down to their competition.  They blow leads.  They commit stupid turnovers.  They lose their composure.

So, it's not solely a coaching issue.  And, it's not a blogger theory, either:  the players have all talked about not bringing effort, not doing the "little things", not playing hard particularly on defense, etc.

That leaves big questions:

Is it fixable?  How?  Why hasn't it changed?

Is this the inverse of the "Heat culture"?  Do the Celtics as an organization just have a lackadaisical approach?

Do other teams go through this with the frequency that the Celts do?

Is it that the players aren't "hungry" enough?  Is it the money?  Their generation?

Okay. But even if you want to absolve the coach and put the onus on the players, an elite coach would be able to bring out the best in his players and put them in a position to succeed. Ime wasn't perfect (he struggled early) but he held his players accountable and took them further than anyone else has. I'm convinced a good coach would find a way to minimize or eradicate their flaws - as someone else pointed out.

[SHAQATTACK]

The Tatum / Brown / Smart nucleus has now had three coaches:  Brad, Ime and Joe.  Despite different philosophies, one thing has remained constant:  the players only compete sometimes.  They play down to their competition.  They blow leads.  They commit stupid turnovers.  They lose their composure.

So, it's not solely a coaching issue.  And, it's not a blogger theory, either:  the players have all talked about not bringing effort, not doing the "little things", not playing hard particularly on defense, etc.

That leaves big questions:

Is it fixable?  How?  Why hasn't it changed?

Is this the inverse of the "Heat culture"?  Do the Celtics as an organization just have a lackadaisical approach?

Do other teams go through this with the frequency that the Celts do?

Is it that the players aren't "hungry" enough?  Is it the money?  Their generation?

Okay. But even if you want to absolve the coach and put the onus on the players, an elite coach would be able to bring out the best in his players and put them in a position to succeed. Ime wasn't perfect (he struggled early) but he held his players accountable and took them further than anyone else has. I'm convinced a good coach would find a way to minimize or eradicate their flaws - as someone else pointed out.

Exactly…..some groups need a leader figure , who commands your respect , you bring your best effort to work when your on the clock.  That is Greg Popovich ,type.  Ime learned some of this from him. Joe is a fine coach at some level, but a clueless leader. Spo learned from Riley , and as a GM Riley vocally backed his coach , and now Spo has that respect going . But , somewhere in the organization SOMEBODY has to command . Celtics are leaderless .

On court it starts with Tatum ,  he is THE star ,  he sets the tone on court and has to speak for his teammates .  If he hides ,  then I feel the whole thing slides down hill. He needs to talk to HIS team if he is playing bad ,  say guys “ help me “ , let’s do this or that to make up for my off night.  He needs to lead , even when his shot is not falling ,  he is the main star …he has to grab the reins .  But , the coach needs to remind him and coax this leadership role out of him.

When Tatum is out ….then Brown and Smart need to step up into this roll ,  which I think they are more natural to it. But STILL the coach needs to ask for help fro Smart , Brown , and Brogdon when Tatum is hurt or out. 

There is a HUGE screw up in leadership roles not being addressed among the players, but it’s UP to the coach to address this with his players. Help them sort it out . SMH … This seems to be a foreign concept for Brad Stevens to understand …..did his old man never took charge of anything ? He is not much of a role model for Guys going into battle ….he hires the same mutes .

[Goldstar88]

The Tatum / Brown / Smart nucleus has now had three coaches:  Brad, Ime and Joe.  Despite different philosophies, one thing has remained constant:  the players only compete sometimes.  They play down to their competition.  They blow leads.  They commit stupid turnovers.  They lose their composure.

So, it's not solely a coaching issue.  And, it's not a blogger theory, either:  the players have all talked about not bringing effort, not doing the "little things", not playing hard particularly on defense, etc.

That leaves big questions:

Is it fixable?  How?  Why hasn't it changed?

Is this the inverse of the "Heat culture"?  Do the Celtics as an organization just have a lackadaisical approach?

Do other teams go through this with the frequency that the Celts do?

Is it that the players aren't "hungry" enough?  Is it the money?  Their generation?

Okay. But even if you want to absolve the coach and put the onus on the players, an elite coach would be able to bring out the best in his players and put them in a position to succeed. Ime wasn't perfect (he struggled early) but he held his players accountable and took them further than anyone else has. I'm convinced a good coach would find a way to minimize or eradicate their flaws - as someone else pointed out.

Gregg Popovich coached the Spurs to the second worst record in the NBA this season.

[Celtic_Pride777]

The Tatum / Brown / Smart nucleus has now had three coaches:  Brad, Ime and Joe.  Despite different philosophies, one thing has remained constant:  the players only compete sometimes.  They play down to their competition.  They blow leads.  They commit stupid turnovers.  They lose their composure.

So, it's not solely a coaching issue.  And, it's not a blogger theory, either:  the players have all talked about not bringing effort, not doing the "little things", not playing hard particularly on defense, etc.

That leaves big questions:

Is it fixable?  How?  Why hasn't it changed?

Is this the inverse of the "Heat culture"?  Do the Celtics as an organization just have a lackadaisical approach?

Do other teams go through this with the frequency that the Celts do?

Is it that the players aren't "hungry" enough?  Is it the money?  Their generation?

Okay. But even if you want to absolve the coach and put the onus on the players, an elite coach would be able to bring out the best in his players and put them in a position to succeed. Ime wasn't perfect (he struggled early) but he held his players accountable and took them further than anyone else has. I'm convinced a good coach would find a way to minimize or eradicate their flaws - as someone else pointed out.

Gregg Popovich coached the Spurs to the second worst record in the NBA this season.

Yes. It's called tanking. LOL

[Goldstar88]

The Tatum / Brown / Smart nucleus has now had three coaches:  Brad, Ime and Joe.  Despite different philosophies, one thing has remained constant:  the players only compete sometimes.  They play down to their competition.  They blow leads.  They commit stupid turnovers.  They lose their composure.

So, it's not solely a coaching issue.  And, it's not a blogger theory, either:  the players have all talked about not bringing effort, not doing the "little things", not playing hard particularly on defense, etc.

That leaves big questions:

Is it fixable?  How?  Why hasn't it changed?

Is this the inverse of the "Heat culture"?  Do the Celtics as an organization just have a lackadaisical approach?

Do other teams go through this with the frequency that the Celts do?

Is it that the players aren't "hungry" enough?  Is it the money?  Their generation?

Okay. But even if you want to absolve the coach and put the onus on the players, an elite coach would be able to bring out the best in his players and put them in a position to succeed. Ime wasn't perfect (he struggled early) but he held his players accountable and took them further than anyone else has. I'm convinced a good coach would find a way to minimize or eradicate their flaws - as someone else pointed out.

Gregg Popovich coached the Spurs to the second worst record in the NBA this season.

Yes. It's called tanking. LOL

Oh, right. Pop was intentionally throwing the games. That sounds like something he would do. 

[Celtic_Pride777]

The Tatum / Brown / Smart nucleus has now had three coaches:  Brad, Ime and Joe.  Despite different philosophies, one thing has remained constant:  the players only compete sometimes.  They play down to their competition.  They blow leads.  They commit stupid turnovers.  They lose their composure.

So, it's not solely a coaching issue.  And, it's not a blogger theory, either:  the players have all talked about not bringing effort, not doing the "little things", not playing hard particularly on defense, etc.

That leaves big questions:

Is it fixable?  How?  Why hasn't it changed?

Is this the inverse of the "Heat culture"?  Do the Celtics as an organization just have a lackadaisical approach?

Do other teams go through this with the frequency that the Celts do?

Is it that the players aren't "hungry" enough?  Is it the money?  Their generation?

Okay. But even if you want to absolve the coach and put the onus on the players, an elite coach would be able to bring out the best in his players and put them in a position to succeed. Ime wasn't perfect (he struggled early) but he held his players accountable and took them further than anyone else has. I'm convinced a good coach would find a way to minimize or eradicate their flaws - as someone else pointed out.

Gregg Popovich coached the Spurs to the second worst record in the NBA this season.

Yes. It's called tanking. LOL

Oh, right. Pop was intentionally throwing the games. That sounds like something he would do. 

The Spurs have been deliberately tanking for at least two seasons. It doesn't matter if Pop is their coach. It's not his choice to make.

[Goldstar88]

The Tatum / Brown / Smart nucleus has now had three coaches:  Brad, Ime and Joe.  Despite different philosophies, one thing has remained constant:  the players only compete sometimes.  They play down to their competition.  They blow leads.  They commit stupid turnovers.  They lose their composure.

So, it's not solely a coaching issue.  And, it's not a blogger theory, either:  the players have all talked about not bringing effort, not doing the "little things", not playing hard particularly on defense, etc.

That leaves big questions:

Is it fixable?  How?  Why hasn't it changed?

Is this the inverse of the "Heat culture"?  Do the Celtics as an organization just have a lackadaisical approach?

Do other teams go through this with the frequency that the Celts do?

Is it that the players aren't "hungry" enough?  Is it the money?  Their generation?

Okay. But even if you want to absolve the coach and put the onus on the players, an elite coach would be able to bring out the best in his players and put them in a position to succeed. Ime wasn't perfect (he struggled early) but he held his players accountable and took them further than anyone else has. I'm convinced a good coach would find a way to minimize or eradicate their flaws - as someone else pointed out.

Gregg Popovich coached the Spurs to the second worst record in the NBA this season.

Yes. It's called tanking. LOL

Oh, right. Pop was intentionally throwing the games. That sounds like something he would do. 

The Spurs have been deliberately tanking for at least two seasons. It doesn't matter if Pop is their coach. It's not his choice to make.

So you’re saying that the coach doesn’t matter at all. Got it.