Author Topic: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team  (Read 4588 times)

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Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2023, 08:13:59 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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People are wild. Even if you don't want Brown on the team you still sign him to the contract. People get upset that we let TPEs and 15th spots on the roster go unused. Can you imagine letting our 2nd best asset go, but still being over the cap? Sign him and trade him later if you are in the anti Brown camp.

Personally I love Brown. He has the fire in his belly that more on our team need.

See how Washington is doing. Trading Beal for a younger star makes sense.
But is the market there to actually do that?

Beal and Brown are very similar.

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2023, 08:28:14 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

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You obviously give him the contract but I’m not convinced the ownership will be willing to pay the tax long term. They are looking at two super max deals and will be difficult to build a roster around that. Might have to trade one of those guys for younger/cheaper pieces at some point.

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2023, 08:46:37 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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There are others who have a more solid understanding of cap/contract rules but I think the following in generally correct.  There are rules that limit how much you can offer a player as an extension to a contract.  Those limits are impacted by a player making the all NBA as Brown has just done.  Without the all-NBA, the "max" the Celtics could have offered as an extension was appreciably less than what Brown would have likely gotten by waiting another season and becoming an UFA.  With the all-NBA, the allowable extension is larger and about the same as he would get if he waits to get to UFA.  That is the major contract implication of him getting all-NBA.

As far as the cap implications of signing him, it comes down to how you want to and how you are able to spend your money.   We are able to spend the money now on Brown (via an extension) if we want to, even tough we are over the cap.  If we don't spend the money on Brown, we wouldn't be able to spend it on another free agent because we are over the cap.  The extension will be a ridiculous amount of money but the Celtics really have no choice but to offer it (even if they plan to trade him later), and then do the same with Tatum next year.

It is the GSW playbook.  Pay ridiculous money to keep your core (in their case Curry and Thompson).  The problem is you could end up like GSW, a multi-year perennial contender or you could end up like POR with two great players (Lillard and McCollum) but never quite get there.

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2023, 10:04:41 AM »

Online A Future of Stevens

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People are wild. Even if you don't want Brown on the team you still sign him to the contract. People get upset that we let TPEs and 15th spots on the roster go unused. Can you imagine letting our 2nd best asset go, but still being over the cap? Sign him and trade him later if you are in the anti Brown camp.

Personally I love Brown. He has the fire in his belly that more on our team need.

See how Washington is doing. Trading Beal for a younger star makes sense.
But is the market there to actually do that?

Beal and Brown are very similar.
If Beal was 2-3 inches taller, 2-3 years younger, and known as a good defender, yeah I think his market would be pretty good.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 10:30:36 AM by A Future of Stevens »
#JKJB

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2023, 10:47:36 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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People are wild. Even if you don't want Brown on the team you still sign him to the contract. People get upset that we let TPEs and 15th spots on the roster go unused. Can you imagine letting our 2nd best asset go, but still being over the cap? Sign him and trade him later if you are in the anti Brown camp.

Personally I love Brown. He has the fire in his belly that more on our team need.

See how Washington is doing. Trading Beal for a younger star makes sense.
But is the market there to actually do that?

Beal and Brown are very similar.
If Beal was 2-3 inches taller, 2-3 years younger, and known as a good defender, yeah I think his market would be pretty good.

You could also argue that Mitchell is a better comp than Beal and look what Utah got for Mitchell.  Trades are not easy but can be done.  The trick for the Celtics with Brown is we will want contributing players back, not prospects and picks.  Utah got some of both (contributing players and prospects/picks) for Mitchell, along with some "filler":

Quote
The Cavaliers sent Jazz forward Lauri Markkanen, rookie wing Ochai Agbaji, guard Collin Sexton, three unprotected first-round picks (2025, 2027 and 2029) and two pick swaps (2026 and 2028) for Mitchell.

If Brown declines the extension, we are probably forced to trade him.  But I see him declining the extension as unlikely and once he accepts the extension, I think there will be some constraints on trading him.  I am not sure if we can trade him and then the new team extend him.  In any case, I see a trade this off season as unlikely but who knows.

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2023, 11:07:03 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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People are wild. Even if you don't want Brown on the team you still sign him to the contract. People get upset that we let TPEs and 15th spots on the roster go unused. Can you imagine letting our 2nd best asset go, but still being over the cap? Sign him and trade him later if you are in the anti Brown camp.

Personally I love Brown. He has the fire in his belly that more on our team need.

See how Washington is doing. Trading Beal for a younger star makes sense.
But is the market there to actually do that?

Beal and Brown are very similar.
If Beal was 2-3 inches taller, 2-3 years younger, and known as a good defender, yeah I think his market would be pretty good.

You're exactly underlining my point. Three years ago Beal was almost NBA scoring leader (only Curry scored more), an All Star and made an All NBA team. His market was excellent. Lots of proposals on this forum as well about breaking the bank to supply Tatum his co-star in Beal.

Three years later those discussions have dried out and the first thing people take into consideration when talking about Beal is his big contract. Now lack of team success is a contributor as well to that drop in value. And as long as Tatum stays on the team the Celtics will be a big factor in playoff-basbetball, but don't assume a player's success to automatically continue just because he has the right age.

In fact I'd argue that Brown's trading value will never be higher than it is right now. So if Celtics management believes the current combo of players isn't ideal for winning a championship they should strongly consider to partner Tatum up with a superstar who can provide different qualities like playmaking or interior presence.

I'm not saying it's an easy decision because then there will be extra moves to be made to balance out the roster, but it's the path I'd choose. And I'm thinking about Lillard.

I love Haliburton (but I don't believe the Pacers would be interested to trade Haliburton for Brown in any capacity).

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2023, 11:21:43 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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People are wild. Even if you don't want Brown on the team you still sign him to the contract. People get upset that we let TPEs and 15th spots on the roster go unused. Can you imagine letting our 2nd best asset go, but still being over the cap? Sign him and trade him later if you are in the anti Brown camp.

Personally I love Brown. He has the fire in his belly that more on our team need.

See how Washington is doing. Trading Beal for a younger star makes sense.
But is the market there to actually do that?

Beal and Brown are very similar.
If Beal was 2-3 inches taller, 2-3 years younger, and known as a good defender, yeah I think his market would be pretty good.

You're exactly underlining my point. Three years ago Beal was almost NBA scoring leader (only Curry scored more), an All Star and made an All NBA team. His market was excellent. Lots of proposals on this forum as well about breaking the bank to supply Tatum his co-star in Beal.

Three years later those discussions have dried out and the first thing people take into consideration when talking about Beal is his big contract. Now lack of team success is a contributor as well to that drop in value. And as long as Tatum stays on the team the Celtics will be a big factor in playoff-basbetball, but don't assume a player's success to automatically continue just because he has the right age.

In fact I'd argue that Brown's trading value will never be higher than it is right now. So if Celtics management believes the current combo of players isn't ideal for winning a championship they should strongly consider to partner Tatum up with a superstar who can provide different qualities like playmaking or interior presence.

I'm not saying it's an easy decision because then there will be extra moves to be made to balance out the roster, but it's the path I'd choose. And I'm thinking about Lillard.

I love Haliburton (but I don't believe the Pacers would be interested to trade Haliburton for Brown in any capacity).

This just obviously isn't true. Here's the problem with trading Jaylen now: His contract.

He has one year left on his deal, a fact which itself diminishes his value somewhat. Small market teams just can't take the chance of shelling out major assets for a guy who has no reason to stay after his contract expires.

And its REALLY hard to see him agreeing to an extension after he's traded, because any team acquiring him has the same issue the Celtics do: His contract makes him hard to extend. The NEW CBA makes it easier to offer him a contract somewhere around his max, but there's language in the CBA that forces you to carry over an incentives in a players contract into an extension. Jaylen has quite a few incentives. You can lessen those incentives, but in effect unless THAT RULE has also been changed Jaylen will not be able to sign a true max 100% guaranteed contract until he reaches free agency. And even if he could, why would he? Unless he suffers a career ending injury next year he's 100% getting a max contract when he becomes a free agent because scoring rings are extremely rare. Why sign early? 

That's why this All-NBA was so important, it bypasses all the normal extension language and just lets the Celtics offer a full five years anywhere between 30% and 35% of the cap. There's no real reason for Jaylen to say no. Even if he didn't want to be here he could simply request a trade in a year.

But he can't sign the supermax if he's traded, that's off the table. All that means he almost certainly wont sign an extension to any team he's traded too which tanks your ability to get value for him.




« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 11:34:52 AM by keevsnick »

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2023, 05:07:59 PM »

Offline gouki88

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People are wild. Even if you don't want Brown on the team you still sign him to the contract. People get upset that we let TPEs and 15th spots on the roster go unused. Can you imagine letting our 2nd best asset go, but still being over the cap? Sign him and trade him later if you are in the anti Brown camp.

Personally I love Brown. He has the fire in his belly that more on our team need.

See how Washington is doing. Trading Beal for a younger star makes sense.
But is the market there to actually do that?

Beal and Brown are very similar.
Problem being Beal has actually not shown any sort of desire to leave besides weird cryptic comments (often prior to signing long-term extensions). If management believe Beal wants to be there, why would they ship him?

Washington's mistakes have been the people around Beal. Porzingis and Kuzma are not playoff-worthy #2 and #3 guys
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2023, 08:14:03 PM »

Offline Indocelts

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Wrong thread.

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2023, 02:34:40 AM »

Offline ozgod

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How many of us will think these are meaningless, hollow awards if we don’t win a championship?

(Obviously not the Jays that’s for sure  :police: )
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2023, 04:55:36 AM »

Offline gouki88

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How many of us will think these are meaningless, hollow awards if we don’t win a championship?

(Obviously not the Jays that’s for sure  :police: )
I think they should be regarded in the opposite manner if this group never wins a ring. That we’ve had multiple All-NBA guys, a DPOY, another All-Defensive guy and a 6MOY without a ring would be a complete indictment on the coaching.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2023, 09:12:14 AM »

Online Roy H.

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How many of us will think these are meaningless, hollow awards if we don’t win a championship?

(Obviously not the Jays that’s for sure  :police: )

I mean, if we're paying the Jays $120 million per year and we're not at least strongly contending, I expect that there will eventually be a bunch of angst.  But, the scorn directed at any players will be based on their performance compared to the pieces around them (including the coach).

The players are expected to play well.  The front office / coaching staff is supposed to put those players in the best position to succeed.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2023, 09:17:27 AM »

Online A Future of Stevens

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How many of us will think these are meaningless, hollow awards if we don’t win a championship?

(Obviously not the Jays that’s for sure  :police: )
I could honestly care less about these kind of awards. The only reason they matter is they give us the ability to competitively lock up our stars going forward. So they matter from a team building perspective. It is nice to see the league recognize our guys hard work towards becoming elite.
#JKJB

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2023, 09:01:54 PM »

Offline Who

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I posted this in the Game Thread but it probably belongs over here instead:


One thing I have been wondering about since Jaylen made the All-NBA team is: Obviously, scoring more points and lifting his ppg 20 27ppg has been great for Jaylen in terms of his individual fame and recognition but has it really improved the team?

Is the team better today with Jaylen scoring 27ppg than it was when Jaylen was scoring 20-22ppg? Is the team better off with Jaylen taking those extra 5-7 FGAs rather than having them spread out among the rest of the team?

I mean we have one of the deepest teams in the league. We have 7 guys who are average to above average starters and an 8th guy in G Will who is a high end bench player to low end starter. Plus quality deep bench beyond that.

So is the team really better with Jaylen takin those extra 5-7 FGAs or would it better with Jaylen scoring 20-22ppg and the team sharing those 5-7 FGAs around the rest of the team? Taking a more team based approach.

I mean, Jaylen's scoring efficiency in the regular season was still around league average. It is not like he is a hugely efficient scorer that is far more efficient than the guys around him.

I'll add to that post this:

There is some advantage to role players sometimes to having an average or below average efficiency scorer take more shots than their scoring efficiency says they should take and that is when they attract a lot of defensive attention and use their passing to create higher efficiency shots for teammates who struggle to create good looks for themselves.

Allen Iverson is perhaps the best example of this. He played with a lot of limited offensive guys who were only spot up shooters or garbage men around the basket. They benefitted from Iverson dominating the ball & shots so long as he continued to create easier shots for them and pump their scoring efficiency that way. Which Iverson did and did very well.

However, this does fit Jaylen as he is a poor passer and with a poor AST:TO ratio. He does not pass often. He does pass well. And he is error prone with regards to turnovers. He does not generate enough higher quality shot attempts for teammates to justify taking inefficient or average efficiency shot attempts over more team based approach.

Re: J.B. second team All Nba! J.T. first team
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2023, 11:07:56 PM »

Offline radiohead

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JB needs to go supernova and lead us to a series win vs Miami. If not, how can you justify giving him the supermax? I’m a huge JB fan but seeing him shrink in this big stage is unbelievable. If we don’t offer the supermax and he doesn’t sign any extension, we are forced to trade him and get lesser value probably? If he gets the supermax, he’ll be untradeable for a year.  Brad has some big decisions to make.