Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[GreenBoomer]

The great teams find ways to win. Seems like this group is better at finding ways to lose.

[ozgod]

In terms of defense:  we have given up 119+ points in five straight playoff games.

We gave up 119 points zero times in last year's playoffs.

But, no adjustments, no accountability.

This is more nuanced than stated.  We are playing with more pace this playoff (101.1 vs. 95., but our DRTG is worse (116.3 vs. 106.3).  Also, we are playing a 1 big line up (mostly) vs. a traditional 2 big line up which for the Celtics means that one of our best defenders (RWill) isn't playing as much.

I do think it is true that teams have figured out our switch everything defense.  They just keep doing screens until they get Horford or another big on their scorer (Trae Young last series, Harden last night).  Then they attack the mismatch.  Last night, they were actually sliding the primary defender to stay with Harden, with Horford dropping after an initial show.  This was an adjustment.  Harden still hit nearly everything.

So what adjustment are you proposing?  What form of accountability are you looking for?

Right.  Our defensive rating is 10 points per 100 possessions worse.  That's atrocious.

I agree, the numbers aren't good.  What is your solution?

Hire a better coach who can tweak the defensive schemes, motivate the players, can incorporate two bigs consistently, and hold the players accountable.  In other words, all the things Ime did.  And, that coach should incorporate these concepts all year long, instead of allowing his team to "flip the switch".

Said coach should be able to do things at a better level than a 40-something attorney who posts on a message board a lot.  Joe is supposed to be one of the top 30 coaches in the world.  I'm not.

I guess the question that Vermont Green is getting at is, who would our solution to replace Joe be? Looking forward and not backwards, at first glance there are the following candidates:

Nick Nurse
Stan Van Gundy
Frank Vogel
Dwayne Casey
Scott Silas
Nate McMillan
Steve Nash
Sam Cassell
Igor Kokoskov
Dave Joerger
Terry Stotts
Kenny Atkinson (turned down HC of Charlotte to stay with the Warriors as an assistant)
Mike D'Antoni (doesn't want a HC position but maybe he can be convinced?)
Bud (maybe)

Not to mention college coaches possibly looking for a step into the NBA.

Any of those sound like they would be worth pursuing?

[Roy H.]

Mazzula is not important. This core ain't got a clutch player. Fact. Ball is like a hot potato in hands of everyone, but Smart. And we all no Smart is not that guy. If Tatum or Brown are Harden by the case, this game would have been finished in a proper way.

These players have some fundamental issues I agree. However, the difference between Ime, Brad and Mazz is Ime had a defense playing at a level that at least mitigated some of the issues. We don't lose that game last night with Ime's defense.

I've been saying for months Joe needed to go and the response was "look at the record." Timeouts were a big thing early on and that told me enough about his lack of IQ to know that we would have to win despite him. Smart, good coaches don't make such asinine mistakes like that. What that told me is that Joe believes he's the smartest guy in the room and he's going to reinvent things. Somehow the all time great coaches just don't get it, but he does.

Stop letting tatum walk the ball up in crunch. Make these guy play fast and stop slowing it down to milk the clock. We see this time and time again and nothing is done about it. I remember seeing one of the closing minutes of the Heat/Bucks series. Miami had a few point lead with about a minute and half to go. Butler got a TO or rebound and went flying down the court and took a kill shot. He didn't turtle, he played to win, not to lose. Now I'm not advocating jacking 3's like that, but be aggressive.


They have the talent to win despite him, but IDK if they have the mental ability to do it.

I think he's too soft on them. It's probably hard being 34, virtually the same age as the rest of these guys, coming in to a situation where the previous much-loved coach was unceremoniously dumped out, and having to take over on short notice a team that went to the Finals last season and expects to do the same this season. I'm not surprised he's adopted more of a supportive role rather than try and impose himself on the team, because they might just tune him out if he acted like Pop or Bud or someone with more experience and gravitas. Having a supportive leadership style is great when you have vets who can basically run the ship and impose discipline and accountability on the team and when things are going well. It's less effective when you are in crisis mode or when your vets are part of the issue of having mental lapses.

Not really fair on a first year coach with zero experience. But, just as we in real life don't ask for problems to come to our doorstep, Mazz has to deal with the expectations and challenges of the job. We can't afford for him to have a Will Hardy experience managing a rebuilding team and get some experience. The fans, the media AND the team all expect him to be a championship coach. That's his bar. That's the only thing that will be acceptable to everyone. Because we had a coach that got us to the Finals - the minimum we expect of him is that he go one better. Anything less will be seen as a failure.

Should have thrown a boatload of money at Quinn Snyder.  Or at Vogel.  Or at Jay Larranaga to serve as an assistant; I know he declined, but everybody has a price.

It's bad enough that Joe is a soft coach in over his head.  That's compounded by not replacing Joe, Hardy or Stoudamire on the assistant coaching staff.  It seems like the Celtics have interest in hiring Stephen Silas, so at least they're potentially addressing the experience issue, albeit a year late.

[Roy H.]

Sean Grande @SeanGrandePBP
about 7 hours ago
The Celtics were the NBA's #2 defense this year. They're 12th out of 16 in the playoffs. Boston gave up 1.23 points per possession 7 times in the 82-game season. In the last five, The Hawks/Sixers are AVERAGING 1.23. (The Spurs set the NBA record this year allowing 1.196)

Meanwhile, our coach preaches "no adjustments" while staring into space.

[Roy H.]

You can't even make this stuff up.

The layups were nice, but they did get the Celtics away from what they do best. They took 26 3-pointers, their second-lowest total over the last two years. “I don’t think 26 3s is a recipe for our success as a team," Mazzulla said.

We lost last night because...  we didn't shoot enough threes! 

Not the 16 turnovers, not the atrocious defense.  In spite of the 58.7% shooting and easy layups, it's the lack of threes that cost us the game.

I swear, if I was Wyc I'd fire him today.

[Vermont Green]

In terms of defense:  we have given up 119+ points in five straight playoff games.

We gave up 119 points zero times in last year's playoffs.

But, no adjustments, no accountability.

This is more nuanced than stated.  We are playing with more pace this playoff (101.1 vs. 95., but our DRTG is worse (116.3 vs. 106.3).  Also, we are playing a 1 big line up (mostly) vs. a traditional 2 big line up which for the Celtics means that one of our best defenders (RWill) isn't playing as much.

I do think it is true that teams have figured out our switch everything defense.  They just keep doing screens until they get Horford or another big on their scorer (Trae Young last series, Harden last night).  Then they attack the mismatch.  Last night, they were actually sliding the primary defender to stay with Harden, with Horford dropping after an initial show.  This was an adjustment.  Harden still hit nearly everything.

So what adjustment are you proposing?  What form of accountability are you looking for?

Right.  Our defensive rating is 10 points per 100 possessions worse.  That's atrocious.

I agree, the numbers aren't good.  What is your solution?

Hire a better coach who can tweak the defensive schemes, motivate the players, can incorporate two bigs consistently, and hold the players accountable.  In other words, all the things Ime did.  And, that coach should incorporate these concepts all year long, instead of allowing his team to "flip the switch".

Said coach should be able to do things at a better level than a 40-something attorney who posts on a message board a lot.  Joe is supposed to be one of the top 30 coaches in the world.  I'm not.

I guess the question that Vermont Green is getting at is, who would our solution to replace Joe be? Looking forward and not backwards, at first glance there are the following candidates:

Nick Nurse
Stan Van Gundy
Frank Vogel
Dwayne Casey
Scott Silas
Nate McMillan
Steve Nash
Sam Cassell
Igor Kokoskov
Dave Joerger
Terry Stotts
Kenny Atkinson (turned down HC of Charlotte to stay with the Warriors as an assistant)
Mike D'Antoni (doesn't want a HC position but maybe he can be convinced?)
Bud (maybe)

Not to mention college coaches possibly looking for a step into the NBA.

Any of those sound like they would be worth pursuing?

I actually wasn't going there, to me, the decision on the coach moving forward is an off season evaluation.  I think the team should evaluate that.  I am not sure that any on that list would dramatically change things, but the coach should be evaluated in the off season.

My question is that people are saying "our defense is bad", "we need to make an adjustment".  But what adjustment do people want to see?  Go zone?  Stop the switch everything (which we partially did on Harden in game 1 anyway)?  Play different line up combinations?

I said above, teams have figured out our switch everything defense (which is really Ime's defense).  They did do some small adjustments off of this in the 4th (that is all I saw of the game).  I did not think the defense was bad in the 4th.  I didn't see that as the problem.  We had too many turnovers (we had 4 in the 4th to PHI 2) and wasted possessions while PHI was making tough, contested shots.

I am not defending Joe, it is hard to really say how good a coach he is right now.  Based on what I have seen, I think he is at least an average coach.

[CelticsWhat35]

You can't even make this stuff up.

The layups were nice, but they did get the Celtics away from what they do best. They took 26 3-pointers, their second-lowest total over the last two years. “I don’t think 26 3s is a recipe for our success as a team," Mazzulla said.

We lost last night because...  we didn't shoot enough threes! 

Not the 16 turnovers, not the atrocious defense.  In spite of the 58.7% shooting and easy layups, it's the lack of threes that cost us the game.

I swear, if I was Wyc I'd fire him today.

I saw that too and got so incredibly frustrated.  Just his philosophy is asinine but unfortunately I think Brad shared the same offensive philosophy

[SparzWizard]

You can't even make this stuff up.

The layups were nice, but they did get the Celtics away from what they do best. They took 26 3-pointers, their second-lowest total over the last two years. “I don’t think 26 3s is a recipe for our success as a team," Mazzulla said.

We lost last night because...  we didn't shoot enough threes! 

Not the 16 turnovers, not the atrocious defense.  In spite of the 58.7% shooting and easy layups, it's the lack of threes that cost us the game.

I swear, if I was Wyc I'd fire him today.

This whole management needs an overhaul. Wyc is also a cheap butt and seems reluctant to pull any plugs. Sell the team maybe. I'll give PBS a pass for getting DWhite and MBrogdon, but him and his soft-man mentality aren't going to get us to the top. Joe can pack his bags and walk home. Possibly inherited this from Brad Stevens versus when we had Ime Udoka. If only he kept his hands out his pants. Ugh.

[Roy H.]

Our defensive rating in the fourth quarter of the three playoff losses:  137.5 points allowed per 100 possessions.

Giving up 1.375 points per possession is astronomically bad.  And, it's not just the fourth quarter:

[The Celtics defense ranks] 12th out of 16 in the playoffs. Boston gave up 1.23 points per possession 7 times in the 82-game season. In the last five, The Hawks/Sixers are AVERAGING 1.23. (The Spurs set the NBA record this year allowing 1.196)

In other words, over the past five games our defense is significantly worse than the worse defense of all-time.

Shoot more threes. 

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

let's see if brad is a gutless coward.  if he does not fire  joe then wyc can fire both of these clowns.

hire nick nurse and a better GM.  brad is too soft like joe. bad combo.

shoulda never fired udoka.

[Roy H.]

shoulda never fired udoka.

That's really what's underlying a lot of this debate.

Should Ime's offense have been fireable?  As fans, we have no idea.  We know that a law firm -- which is concerned with financial exposure -- recommended at least a suspension.  We know that the Nets were prepared to hire him, and that the Rockets did hire him.  The Raptors were interested.  We know that reports are that the relationship was consensual, with some suggestive and crude language used before the relationship started.  However, there's no indication that there was sexual assault, threatened consequences to the woman, etc.

There's probably a pretty strong argument that the Celtics overreacted here, and cost the Celtics a championship in the process.  I'm not going to second guess the decision, because I don't know truly what happened.  But, Ime's behavior was known to the team in July.  The Celtics suspended Ime in late September.  They had over two months to come up with a plan better than Joe (with no notable assistant coaches), and they completely and utterly failed.

[Kuberski33]

I think if they aren't competitive in this series - i.e. if they lose 4-1 or worse - I don't think Joe will be back. I think ownership will make the call to get rid of him.

And I wouldn't get hung up on salary for a coach. They don't want to be heavy luxury tax payers. What you pay your coach has nothing to do with that. They'll spend the money if the right guy becomes available.

Replacing Ime from within is the way you go when you like what Ime did coaching-wise. Especially where Joe was considered to be a rising talent.

It is starting to look like they may need to go in another direction and get a fresh outlook in here.

[Kuberski33]

shoulda never fired udoka.

That's really what's underlying a lot of this debate.

Should Ime's offense have been fireable?  As fans, we have no idea.  We know that a law firm -- which is concerned with financial exposure -- recommended at least a suspension.  We know that the Nets were prepared to hire him, and that the Rockets did hire him.  The Raptors were interested.  We know that reports are that the relationship was consensual, with some suggestive and crude language used before the relationship started.  However, there's no indication that there was sexual assault, threatened consequences to the woman, etc..

There's ownership and there's management and employees. It sounds like what Ime did directly impacted either part of the ownership or someone close to the key partners. When you cross that line, maybe it becomes a little personal.

[Goldstar88]

In terms of defense:  we have given up 119+ points in five straight playoff games.

We gave up 119 points zero times in last year's playoffs.

But, no adjustments, no accountability.

This is more nuanced than stated.  We are playing with more pace this playoff (101.1 vs. 95., but our DRTG is worse (116.3 vs. 106.3).  Also, we are playing a 1 big line up (mostly) vs. a traditional 2 big line up which for the Celtics means that one of our best defenders (RWill) isn't playing as much.

I do think it is true that teams have figured out our switch everything defense.  They just keep doing screens until they get Horford or another big on their scorer (Trae Young last series, Harden last night).  Then they attack the mismatch.  Last night, they were actually sliding the primary defender to stay with Harden, with Horford dropping after an initial show.  This was an adjustment.  Harden still hit nearly everything.

So what adjustment are you proposing?  What form of accountability are you looking for?

Right.  Our defensive rating is 10 points per 100 possessions worse.  That's atrocious.

I agree, the numbers aren't good.  What is your solution?

Hire a better coach who can tweak the defensive schemes, motivate the players, can incorporate two bigs consistently, and hold the players accountable.  In other words, all the things Ime did.  And, that coach should incorporate these concepts all year long, instead of allowing his team to "flip the switch".

Said coach should be able to do things at a better level than a 40-something attorney who posts on a message board a lot.  Joe is supposed to be one of the top 30 coaches in the world.  I'm not.

I guess the question that Vermont Green is getting at is, who would our solution to replace Joe be? Looking forward and not backwards, at first glance there are the following candidates:

Nick Nurse
Stan Van Gundy
Frank Vogel
Dwayne Casey
Scott Silas
Nate McMillan
Steve Nash
Sam Cassell
Igor Kokoskov
Dave Joerger
Terry Stotts
Kenny Atkinson (turned down HC of Charlotte to stay with the Warriors as an assistant)
Mike D'Antoni (doesn't want a HC position but maybe he can be convinced?)
Bud (maybe)

Not to mention college coaches possibly looking for a step into the NBA.

Any of those sound like they would be worth pursuing?

Also have to keep in mind that the players, specifically JT and JB have to be on board with whoever the coach is.

[Roy H.]

Zach Kram: The Celtics’ effective field goal percentage (65%) is the highest for any team in a playoff loss in NBA history.

Shoot more threes!

Seriously, when your team puts up one of the most efficient playoff performances in team history -- and one of the worst defensive performances -- and your response is "shoot more threes", you should be fired.  That day.  Because that's the message you're preaching to your players.