Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Roy H.]

I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

They aren't really wrong about Mazzulla. I'm also stunned that he suddenly looks like a legit coach lol. Calling great timeouts, running good ATOs and the team responding with good runs after them, bringing up "defense" in interviews which he never did before (it was always offense and 3-point shooting).

Don't forget his best adjustment: Telling the team to make shots.

Obviously, making shots helps tremendously.

But, in Game 4 and Game 5, both the players and Joe were better.  Joe did better with his timeout usage and with his rotations.  The team -- besides shooting -- was noticeably playing harder, committing to defense, and moving the ball.

Sure, but going from 10.3 points a game or 31 points off threes to 17 threes a game or 51 points off threes is a 20 point swing. That's how you go from losing twice by 5-10 points to winning twice by 10-15 points. Also the Heat not shooting 50% from three twice helped.

Everything around the edges looks a lot better when you hit shots and the opponent doesn't make all theirs.

My point being the "fire Joe" stuff was at least partly an over reaction to insane shooting variance. Could Joe have been better games 1-3? Yes. But when the opponent shoots 48% from three and you shoot 29% from three in those games you are likely going to lose almost regardless of how the coach uses timeouts or who he decides to play.

The c's don't HAVE TO hit 16-18 threes to beat the Heat, but they can't win games if the Heat are hitting more despite lower volume.

Eh.  We had a 12 point game in Game 1.  We had a 12 point 4th quarter lead in Game 2.  I don't accept that those games were unaffected by coaching, or energy, or focus.  If the team played defense like last night, the team moved the ball last night, and Joe managed the game like last night, we win both of those games.

[Kernewek]

We've beaten the timeout thing to death but the insane shooting from Miami is just so atypical that it really ought to trump anything else in the discussion of the first four games. That and the fact that our defense last year was mostly predicated on the fact that Horford was the most ISO'd on defender in the league and in something like the 75th percentile defending them.

For all the talk about 'coaching differences' and defense, if we actually want to talk about this in an interesting way it's hardly a hidden mystery of basketball that last season opposing teams would look at our defense, make moves to get their point guard switched onto Horford... and come away with exactly 0 points for their efforts if their name wasn't Steph Curry.

This year, that wasn't the case.

[Yuckabuck33]

Based on everything that is being reported, it appears that a big contributing factor to the "funk" that the team was in started when Udoka got the job in Houston, or at least this had an impact on the team.  This seemed to rekindle some feelings that many of the players had regarding how Udoka was let go and how they ended up with Mazzulla as their coach.  Then there was a series of questionable coaching calls, like not playing Grant, not starting RWill.  Then some undrafted scrubs from MIA played like hall of famers for 3 games while the Celtics kind of mailed it in.  The culmination of all this was game 3, one of the most disappointing performances by a Celtics team that I can remember.

My point of this recap is that much of this is not Mazzulla's fault.  He didn't fire Udoka.  He had no control over what the owners/mngt told the players about the decision.  He was handed a very difficult situation.  The team was not bought into him as their coach right from the start, or even the overall decision to let Udoka go, that is only now becoming more clear.  Mazzulla did not help his cause with his strange TO approach and some of the other unconventional things he did, that is for sure.

But here we are.  Under most any other circumstance, if a young rookie coach got his team to the ECF, that coach would probably be viewed as a rising star, even if you didn't agree with his TO calls.  But in this case, it is being viewed as a failure, an under-achievement, and for understandable reasons.  Again, tough situation for a young coach to be in.  I have my doubts about Mazzulla as the coach of this team moving forward.  I will think more about that after the Celtics play their last game (hopefully a win in the final game of the finals).  For today though, it is all about circling the wagons, forgetting about Udoka, and making some history.

I don't believe that the team was triggered by Ime being hired in Houston.  I think that's a silly narrative.  I'm sure that some players were p---ed he was fired, and were p---ed by the lack of information, and were p---ed that the team hired a third stringer instead of an established coach.  But the story that everything was cool until Ime got a new job (rather than when Ime was fired) makes no sense.

Unless they were holding out hope he would come back to Boston. We don't know what management told the team. Everybody here said Ime was gone for good but that doesn't mean the team thought that.

[Roy H.]

Based on everything that is being reported, it appears that a big contributing factor to the "funk" that the team was in started when Udoka got the job in Houston, or at least this had an impact on the team.  This seemed to rekindle some feelings that many of the players had regarding how Udoka was let go and how they ended up with Mazzulla as their coach.  Then there was a series of questionable coaching calls, like not playing Grant, not starting RWill.  Then some undrafted scrubs from MIA played like hall of famers for 3 games while the Celtics kind of mailed it in.  The culmination of all this was game 3, one of the most disappointing performances by a Celtics team that I can remember.

My point of this recap is that much of this is not Mazzulla's fault.  He didn't fire Udoka.  He had no control over what the owners/mngt told the players about the decision.  He was handed a very difficult situation.  The team was not bought into him as their coach right from the start, or even the overall decision to let Udoka go, that is only now becoming more clear.  Mazzulla did not help his cause with his strange TO approach and some of the other unconventional things he did, that is for sure.

But here we are.  Under most any other circumstance, if a young rookie coach got his team to the ECF, that coach would probably be viewed as a rising star, even if you didn't agree with his TO calls.  But in this case, it is being viewed as a failure, an under-achievement, and for understandable reasons.  Again, tough situation for a young coach to be in.  I have my doubts about Mazzulla as the coach of this team moving forward.  I will think more about that after the Celtics play their last game (hopefully a win in the final game of the finals).  For today though, it is all about circling the wagons, forgetting about Udoka, and making some history.

I don't believe that the team was triggered by Ime being hired in Houston.  I think that's a silly narrative.  I'm sure that some players were p---ed he was fired, and were p---ed by the lack of information, and were p---ed that the team hired a third stringer instead of an established coach.  But the story that everything was cool until Ime got a new job (rather than when Ime was fired) makes no sense.

Unless they were holding out hope he would come back to Boston. We don't know what management told the team. Everybody here said Ime was gone for good but that doesn't mean the team thought that.

Why would the team bring Ime back after converting his suspension into a termination?  And why would the team tell the players that was a possibility?  I just don't see that as plausible.

[bdm860]

We've beaten the timeout thing to death but the insane shooting from Miami is just so atypical that it really ought to trump anything else in the discussion of the first four games. That and the fact that our defense last year was mostly predicated on the fact that Horford was the most ISO'd on defender in the league and in something like the 75th percentile defending them.

For all the talk about 'coaching differences' and defense, if we actually want to talk about this in an interesting way it's hardly a hidden mystery of basketball that last season opposing teams would look at our defense, make moves to get their point guard switched onto Horford... and come away with exactly 0 points for their efforts if their name wasn't Steph Curry.

This year, that wasn't the case.

One of the adjustments it looks like the Celtics made was no longer switching everything, so now Butler's defender (Tatum) is making an effort to stay with him instead of automatically switching.

Here's a video from Game 1 where a YouTuber breaks down the C's switching on Butler, around the 9:22 mark you see some switches where Tatum makes no effort to stay with Butler.

Now it seems like the C's are fighting through screens more, and only switching when necessary.  This is making it harder on Butler, making him work more giving him fewer easy drives leading to fewer help rotations by the Celtics leading to fewer open Heat players leading to fewer made 3's.  I haven't put the last couple of games under the microscope to verify all this, but I think this is part of what's happening.

[keevsnick]

I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

They aren't really wrong about Mazzulla. I'm also stunned that he suddenly looks like a legit coach lol. Calling great timeouts, running good ATOs and the team responding with good runs after them, bringing up "defense" in interviews which he never did before (it was always offense and 3-point shooting).

Don't forget his best adjustment: Telling the team to make shots.

Obviously, making shots helps tremendously.

But, in Game 4 and Game 5, both the players and Joe were better.  Joe did better with his timeout usage and with his rotations.  The team -- besides shooting -- was noticeably playing harder, committing to defense, and moving the ball.

Sure, but going from 10.3 points a game or 31 points off threes to 17 threes a game or 51 points off threes is a 20 point swing. That's how you go from losing twice by 5-10 points to winning twice by 10-15 points. Also the Heat not shooting 50% from three twice helped.

Everything around the edges looks a lot better when you hit shots and the opponent doesn't make all theirs.

My point being the "fire Joe" stuff was at least partly an over reaction to insane shooting variance. Could Joe have been better games 1-3? Yes. But when the opponent shoots 48% from three and you shoot 29% from three in those games you are likely going to lose almost regardless of how the coach uses timeouts or who he decides to play.

The c's don't HAVE TO hit 16-18 threes to beat the Heat, but they can't win games if the Heat are hitting more despite lower volume.

Eh.  We had a 12 point game in Game 1.  We had a 12 point 4th quarter lead in Game 2.  I don't accept that those games were unaffected by coaching, or energy, or focus.  If the team played defense like last night, the team moved the ball last night, and Joe managed the game like last night, we win both of those games.

I'm not saying those games were unaffected by coaching/energy/focus. But the latter two things aren't REALLY on Joe, we've seen the team struggle with those things over three coaches now.

What I'm saying that getting outshout 16-31 vs 10-29 for Boston was the bigger factor in losing game one, for example, than anything the coach did. The c's shot 52% overall in that game! They shot 10 more FTA! Offensive rebounds and TO's were close. They lost the 3 point math game by a margin that's VERY hard to overcome. Its sort of to their credit that they almost did win the game.

Game three was the same way. Just a HUGE 3 point disparity. That was a shooting luck game. Game 2 is the one where Joe had the most to do with the loss.

[Kernewek]

We've beaten the timeout thing to death but the insane shooting from Miami is just so atypical that it really ought to trump anything else in the discussion of the first four games. That and the fact that our defense last year was mostly predicated on the fact that Horford was the most ISO'd on defender in the league and in something like the 75th percentile defending them.

For all the talk about 'coaching differences' and defense, if we actually want to talk about this in an interesting way it's hardly a hidden mystery of basketball that last season opposing teams would look at our defense, make moves to get their point guard switched onto Horford... and come away with exactly 0 points for their efforts if their name wasn't Steph Curry.

This year, that wasn't the case.

One of the adjustments it looks like the Celtics made was no longer switching everything, so now Butler's defender (Tatum) is making an effort to stay with him instead of automatically switching.

Here's a video from Game 1 where a YouTuber breaks down the C's switching on Butler, around the 9:22 mark you see some switches where Tatum makes no effort to stay with Butler.

Now it seems like the C's are fighting through screens more, and only switching when necessary.  This is making it harder on Butler, making him work more giving him fewer easy drives leading to fewer help rotations by the Celtics leading to fewer open Heat players leading to fewer made 3's.  I haven't put the last couple of games under the microscope to verify all this, but I think this is part of what's happening.

That's a solid video! TP for that.

Yeah as a whole the league is moving away from 'switch everything' in general because it makes it too easy for the offense to pick and choose the matchups that they want, even against a great defense like we had last year - like Who(?) said earlier in this thread or another related one, the game is being refferee'd in a way this year that just makes the math work better for the offense if you switch 100% of the time.

These kinds of trends aren't as sexy, or as obvious, in a playoff series vs the regular season unless the difference is really stark game to game, but considering all modern NBA offenses and defenses are predicated on five guys executing conditionals (if this, then that) at the absolute highest level, it's can be more informative than talking about effort. But even with all that, Miami's shooting was unexpectedly great G1 and G3.

[ozgod]

We've beaten the timeout thing to death but the insane shooting from Miami is just so atypical that it really ought to trump anything else in the discussion of the first four games. That and the fact that our defense last year was mostly predicated on the fact that Horford was the most ISO'd on defender in the league and in something like the 75th percentile defending them.

For all the talk about 'coaching differences' and defense, if we actually want to talk about this in an interesting way it's hardly a hidden mystery of basketball that last season opposing teams would look at our defense, make moves to get their point guard switched onto Horford... and come away with exactly 0 points for their efforts if their name wasn't Steph Curry.

This year, that wasn't the case.

One of the adjustments it looks like the Celtics made was no longer switching everything, so now Butler's defender (Tatum) is making an effort to stay with him instead of automatically switching.

Here's a video from Game 1 where a YouTuber breaks down the C's switching on Butler, around the 9:22 mark you see some switches where Tatum makes no effort to stay with Butler.

Now it seems like the C's are fighting through screens more, and only switching when necessary.  This is making it harder on Butler, making him work more giving him fewer easy drives leading to fewer help rotations by the Celtics leading to fewer open Heat players leading to fewer made 3's.  I haven't put the last couple of games under the microscope to verify all this, but I think this is part of what's happening.

That's a solid video! TP for that.

Yeah as a whole the league is moving away from 'switch everything' in general because it makes it too easy for the offense to pick and choose the matchups that they want, even against a great defense like we had last year - like Who(?) said earlier in this thread or another related one, the game is being refferee'd in a way this year that just makes the math work better for the offense if you switch 100% of the time.

These kinds of trends aren't as sexy, or as obvious, in a playoff series vs the regular season unless the difference is really stark game to game, but considering all modern NBA offenses and defenses are predicated on five guys executing conditionals (if this, then that) at the absolute highest level, it's can be more informative than talking about effort. But even with all that, Miami's shooting was unexpectedly great G1 and G3.

It's really a pick your poison thing - in a league where the three rules supreme, switching everything (assuming you have 5 players on the court who can defend 1-5) takes away open 3s that they get off screens as well as protecting the rim from any rollers. But the down side is that if you don't have those players on the court then you can pick a matchup you want and iso against them. At the end of the day it shouldn't be as simple as a conditional, there has to be some level of judgment involved to decide what to do and when.

[jpotter33]

We've beaten the timeout thing to death but the insane shooting from Miami is just so atypical that it really ought to trump anything else in the discussion of the first four games. That and the fact that our defense last year was mostly predicated on the fact that Horford was the most ISO'd on defender in the league and in something like the 75th percentile defending them.

For all the talk about 'coaching differences' and defense, if we actually want to talk about this in an interesting way it's hardly a hidden mystery of basketball that last season opposing teams would look at our defense, make moves to get their point guard switched onto Horford... and come away with exactly 0 points for their efforts if their name wasn't Steph Curry.

This year, that wasn't the case.

One of the adjustments it looks like the Celtics made was no longer switching everything, so now Butler's defender (Tatum) is making an effort to stay with him instead of automatically switching.

Here's a video from Game 1 where a YouTuber breaks down the C's switching on Butler, around the 9:22 mark you see some switches where Tatum makes no effort to stay with Butler.

Now it seems like the C's are fighting through screens more, and only switching when necessary.  This is making it harder on Butler, making him work more giving him fewer easy drives leading to fewer help rotations by the Celtics leading to fewer open Heat players leading to fewer made 3's.  I haven't put the last couple of games under the microscope to verify all this, but I think this is part of what's happening.

That's a solid video! TP for that.

Yeah as a whole the league is moving away from 'switch everything' in general because it makes it too easy for the offense to pick and choose the matchups that they want, even against a great defense like we had last year - like Who(?) said earlier in this thread or another related one, the game is being refferee'd in a way this year that just makes the math work better for the offense if you switch 100% of the time.

These kinds of trends aren't as sexy, or as obvious, in a playoff series vs the regular season unless the difference is really stark game to game, but considering all modern NBA offenses and defenses are predicated on five guys executing conditionals (if this, then that) at the absolute highest level, it's can be more informative than talking about effort. But even with all that, Miami's shooting was unexpectedly great G1 and G3.

It's really a pick your poison thing - in a league where the three rules supreme, switching everything (assuming you have 5 players on the court who can defend 1-5) takes away open 3s that they get off screens as well as protecting the rim from any rollers. But the down side is that if you don't have those players on the court then you can pick a matchup you want and iso against them. At the end of the day it shouldn't be as simple as a conditional, there has to be some level of judgment involved to decide what to do and when.

When it’s Jimmy Butler, that’s a fairly easy decision. It’s not like he’s a Harden, Trae, Curry, etc. that will take the three if you don’t switch. He’s a subpar three point shooter and hesitant to even shoot the three. He’s the perfect player to fight through the screens with because (a) he likely won’t shoot the three and it’s a good gamble if he does, and (b) he WILL kill the mismatch with his elite midrange and penetration game.

Props to the coaching staff for finally making this adjustment, but to be honest it’s pretty ridiculous it took that long. Virtually every podcast and basketball personality was hammering the constant switching of White onto Butler as soon as after game 1, yet it took until this game until we thoroughly stopped this tactic.

If only the extreme drop coverage could be the next adjustment 🤔

[cman88]

Joe DEFINITELY 100% has been calling timeouts differently last two games though. Last night every single time Miami went on a little run, Joe called a timeout and settled them down.

in games 1-3 he let Miami totally erase the lead before calling a timeout.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Spo is losing the series for Miami cause he's been terrible with his timeouts. He should be fired.

[angryguy77]

Spo is losing the series for Miami cause he's been terrible with his timeouts. He should be fired.

If something doesn't work 100% of the time, it's never worth trying, right?

[Roy H.]

Spo is losing the series for Miami cause he's been terrible with his timeouts. He should be fired.

If something doesn't work 100% of the time, it's never worth trying, right?

Also, is Spo's rotation a mess?  Is his team sleepwalking during crucial games?  Blowing big leads because they're playing lazy?  Refusing to make adjustments?  Deemphasizing his team's strengths?

It cracks me up that Joe's defenders never seem to point out anything he has done well this season or in the playoffs. Instead, they just criticize the critics.  There's no affirmative argument that people have come up with to suggest that he is a good coach, where is the right coach for a contender.

[ozgod]

We've beaten the timeout thing to death but the insane shooting from Miami is just so atypical that it really ought to trump anything else in the discussion of the first four games. That and the fact that our defense last year was mostly predicated on the fact that Horford was the most ISO'd on defender in the league and in something like the 75th percentile defending them.

For all the talk about 'coaching differences' and defense, if we actually want to talk about this in an interesting way it's hardly a hidden mystery of basketball that last season opposing teams would look at our defense, make moves to get their point guard switched onto Horford... and come away with exactly 0 points for their efforts if their name wasn't Steph Curry.

This year, that wasn't the case.

One of the adjustments it looks like the Celtics made was no longer switching everything, so now Butler's defender (Tatum) is making an effort to stay with him instead of automatically switching.

Here's a video from Game 1 where a YouTuber breaks down the C's switching on Butler, around the 9:22 mark you see some switches where Tatum makes no effort to stay with Butler.

Now it seems like the C's are fighting through screens more, and only switching when necessary.  This is making it harder on Butler, making him work more giving him fewer easy drives leading to fewer help rotations by the Celtics leading to fewer open Heat players leading to fewer made 3's.  I haven't put the last couple of games under the microscope to verify all this, but I think this is part of what's happening.

That's a solid video! TP for that.

Yeah as a whole the league is moving away from 'switch everything' in general because it makes it too easy for the offense to pick and choose the matchups that they want, even against a great defense like we had last year - like Who(?) said earlier in this thread or another related one, the game is being refferee'd in a way this year that just makes the math work better for the offense if you switch 100% of the time.

These kinds of trends aren't as sexy, or as obvious, in a playoff series vs the regular season unless the difference is really stark game to game, but considering all modern NBA offenses and defenses are predicated on five guys executing conditionals (if this, then that) at the absolute highest level, it's can be more informative than talking about effort. But even with all that, Miami's shooting was unexpectedly great G1 and G3.

It's really a pick your poison thing - in a league where the three rules supreme, switching everything (assuming you have 5 players on the court who can defend 1-5) takes away open 3s that they get off screens as well as protecting the rim from any rollers. But the down side is that if you don't have those players on the court then you can pick a matchup you want and iso against them. At the end of the day it shouldn't be as simple as a conditional, there has to be some level of judgment involved to decide what to do and when.

When it’s Jimmy Butler, that’s a fairly easy decision. It’s not like he’s a Harden, Trae, Curry, etc. that will take the three if you don’t switch. He’s a subpar three point shooter and hesitant to even shoot the three. He’s the perfect player to fight through the screens with because (a) he likely won’t shoot the three and it’s a good gamble if he does, and (b) he WILL kill the mismatch with his elite midrange and penetration game.

Props to the coaching staff for finally making this adjustment, but to be honest it’s pretty ridiculous it took that long. Virtually every podcast and basketball personality was hammering the constant switching of White onto Butler as soon as after game 1, yet it took until this game until we thoroughly stopped this tactic.

If only the extreme drop coverage could be the next adjustment 🤔

Yup, they need to have the judgment to know that defensive coverage to use on which player. It's not a one size fits all.

[Kernewek]

Spo is losing the series for Miami cause he's been terrible with his timeouts. He should be fired.

If something doesn't work 100% of the time, it's never worth trying, right?

Also, is Spo's rotation a mess?  Is his team sleepwalking during crucial games?  Blowing big leads because they're playing lazy?  Refusing to make adjustments?  Deemphasizing his team's strengths?

It cracks me up that Joe's defenders never seem to point out anything he has done well this season or in the playoffs. Instead, they just criticize the critics.  There's no affirmative argument that people have come up with to suggest that he is a good coach, where is the right coach for a contender.

Considering the deliberate misrepresentation (or earnest lack of reading comprehension) on display in the post you replied to, there’s not much point is there?