Author Topic: Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching  (Read 153482 times)

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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #885 on: May 26, 2023, 08:26:24 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Glad he talked to the team about playing defense the last two games. Now we just need him to do the same for 2 more.
It's a weird little hill to die on, but you keep trying nonetheless
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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #886 on: May 26, 2023, 08:49:19 AM »

Offline celts55

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He probably was coming back anyway, so I don’t know that he saved his job. I do wonder why all of a sudden, two games ago, he realized he was allowed to call timeouts? His rotations seem to be a little better. Basically, he’s now at least coaching on a high school coach level.
I am hoping, if he does come back, they add one or two veteran assistants to remind him of the basics, he seems to forget on occasion

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #887 on: May 26, 2023, 08:55:09 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Nothing I've said has changed for me.  Joe should have never been given the job, but if so the organization failed him by not having an experienced associate head coach to help him.  I didn't think he was going to be fired though. I mean maybe if the C's got blitzed off the court in game 4, but that would have been it.  Even if they win the title, they should bring in an experienced associate head coach.
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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #888 on: May 26, 2023, 09:09:55 AM »

Offline ManchesterCelticsFan

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #889 on: May 26, 2023, 09:24:16 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

Somebody needs to have a sit down with those "Fire Spo" folks.  But, if they want to trade coaches, I'm down.


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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #890 on: May 26, 2023, 09:25:57 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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So to me, I have been saying all along that worrying about TOs is frivolous nit-picking.  He is not going to be fired, nor should he be, over that.  He is already adjusting.  I think many coaches are too quick to call time outs and then don't have them when they need them.  It is kind of the same in baseball over taking out the starter.  2 outs in the 6th, a couple men on base, do you leave him in or take him out.  If you leave him in and the starter gives up a hit, second guess, take him out, second guess.  Mazzulla has his own philosophy on this but he needs to figure out what is going to work best for this group of players, and he is doing that.

What the team/organization needs to assess is the level of buy in that Mazzulla is going to be able to get from the players.  It is apparent now that there were lingering issues with the players over the firing of Udoka, and not full confidence/buy in with Mazzulla.  Comparing Mazzulla to Udoka, and so on.  This was largely masked for most of the season by them playing well.  To me (and I know some disagree with this theory), the combination of Udoka taking the HOU job, Mazzulla having kind of a bad couple of weeks coaching, the team playing bad, allowed this to flare up.  They seem to have gotten over this, at least for now, but this is the big question.

This is not something that can be decided right now.  It shouldn't really be impacted by how the next two games go.  It is more fundamental than that.  Is Mazzulla the right voice for this team.  Some really successful coaches were let go recently by some pretty successful teams.  Not because of Xs and Os (or TOs) but because those teams felt they needed a different voice.  Mazzulla may not be the right voice at the right time for this team.  That is what the Celtics need to figure out.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #891 on: May 26, 2023, 09:47:06 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

I don't think Mazzulla is doing a whole lot of coaching right now, and that is by design.  They are not doing anything different than they have done all season.  I get the sense that Mazzulla is making a conscience effort to let the players play, let the leaders lead.  I am sure they are reviewing plays that MIA is executing and otherwise working things in game and between games but there are not any great motivation speeches or Jedi mind games.  They are back to starting White, just doing what they did all season.  I suspect that the Joe Mazzulla we see in the press conferences is very similar to the coach the players are seeing in the locker room.  I can picture Mazzulla saying to the team, "look guys, you know what you need to do, here are a few things to watch out for, now just go out and play, like I know you can play, and take care of business".  What more really needs to be said at this point?

And I applaud Mazzulla for that.  I am sure he senses that there is an element of the team that is or was thinking "I wish we still had Udoka".  That is a really tough thing for a young coach to deal with.  But I think he is handling that aspect at this point in time very well.  He has gotten the team back.  I think this is a much bigger deal than many are giving him credit for.  Yes, playing Pritchard in that one game was a strange call.  Yes, there have been a few times that I have screamed at the TV to call a TO.  But that kind of thing is minuscule if the team doesn't have their heads on straight.  Mazzulla was able to flip that switch, get the team back, I believe by coaching less, not by trying to coach more, at least for 2 games so far.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #892 on: May 26, 2023, 09:49:37 AM »

Online Goldstar88

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

 ;D
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #893 on: May 26, 2023, 09:54:45 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

They aren't really wrong about Mazzulla. I'm also stunned that he suddenly looks like a legit coach lol. Calling great timeouts, running good ATOs and the team responding with good runs after them, bringing up "defense" in interviews which he never did before (it was always offense and 3-point shooting).
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #894 on: May 26, 2023, 09:57:56 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

They aren't really wrong about Mazzulla. I'm also stunned that he suddenly looks like a legit coach lol. Calling great timeouts, running good ATOs and the team responding with good runs after them, bringing up "defense" in interviews which he never did before (it was always offense and 3-point shooting).

Don't forget his best adjustment: Telling the team to make shots.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #895 on: May 26, 2023, 10:09:32 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

They aren't really wrong about Mazzulla. I'm also stunned that he suddenly looks like a legit coach lol. Calling great timeouts, running good ATOs and the team responding with good runs after them, bringing up "defense" in interviews which he never did before (it was always offense and 3-point shooting).

Don't forget his best adjustment: Telling the team to make shots.

Obviously, making shots helps tremendously.

But, in Game 4 and Game 5, both the players and Joe were better.  Joe did better with his timeout usage and with his rotations.  The team -- besides shooting -- was noticeably playing harder, committing to defense, and moving the ball.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #896 on: May 26, 2023, 10:10:04 AM »

Online Goldstar88

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

They aren't really wrong about Mazzulla. I'm also stunned that he suddenly looks like a legit coach lol. Calling great timeouts, running good ATOs and the team responding with good runs after them, bringing up "defense" in interviews which he never did before (it was always offense and 3-point shooting).

Don't forget his best adjustment: Telling the team to make shots.

I think his best adjustment was telling them to play defense. If he just did that from game 1 of the series, probably wouldn’t be in this predicament.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 10:15:41 AM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #897 on: May 26, 2023, 10:32:39 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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I felt he was always going to be back...Brad and Wyc weren't going to overreact to a few bad games. It just means he may have a bit less pressure on him now than if we've been swept.
I think it's more than a few bad games. He's managed a deep roster poorly and it has resulted in more losses than this team should have had during the regular season. He's also likely sent his one big with any real toughness - Grant Williams - packing because why would you stick around when you're a free agent, there's a need for your services around the league and your current head coach hasn't recognized your value till it was nearly too late? 

The only way to possibly keep him here now is to overpay and even that may not work. Joe caused that.

Also this team is lightyears better than the Heat when it comes to talent. Miami is throwing guys like Love and Lowery out there who are pretty much done and near unplayable defensively. Robinson can't guard anyone either. Yet the C's are on the verge of elimination still.

Yes, a lot of it is on the players. But they haven't gotten much help from the coaching side of things.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #898 on: May 26, 2023, 11:18:32 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

They aren't really wrong about Mazzulla. I'm also stunned that he suddenly looks like a legit coach lol. Calling great timeouts, running good ATOs and the team responding with good runs after them, bringing up "defense" in interviews which he never did before (it was always offense and 3-point shooting).

Don't forget his best adjustment: Telling the team to make shots.

Obviously, making shots helps tremendously.

But, in Game 4 and Game 5, both the players and Joe were better.  Joe did better with his timeout usage and with his rotations.  The team -- besides shooting -- was noticeably playing harder, committing to defense, and moving the ball.

Sure, but going from 10.3 points a game or 31 points off threes to 17 threes a game or 51 points off threes is a 20 point swing. That's how you go from losing twice by 5-10 points to winning twice by 10-15 points. Also the Heat not shooting 50% from three twice helped.

Everything around the edges looks a lot better when you hit shots and the opponent doesn't make all theirs.

My point being the "fire Joe" stuff was at least partly an over reaction to insane shooting variance. Could Joe have been better games 1-3? Yes. But when the opponent shoots 48% from three and you shoot 29% from three in those games you are likely going to lose almost regardless of how the coach uses timeouts or who he decides to play.

The c's don't HAVE TO hit 16-18 threes to beat the Heat, but they can't win games if the Heat are hitting more despite lower volume.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #899 on: May 26, 2023, 11:33:52 AM »

Offline JohnBoy65

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I was reading Miami Heat forum and it sounded exactly like this Celtics forum after our losses in the series. Some fans were like "Fire Spo!" and "trade [everyone]". Some fans were perplexed why Joe Mazulla was trash at coaching games 1 through 3 but all of the sudden is better. They thought he must be getting help on game planning. Then they figured out the rational person to help him: Brad Stevens.

They aren't really wrong about Mazzulla. I'm also stunned that he suddenly looks like a legit coach lol. Calling great timeouts, running good ATOs and the team responding with good runs after them, bringing up "defense" in interviews which he never did before (it was always offense and 3-point shooting).

Don't forget his best adjustment: Telling the team to make shots.

Obviously, making shots helps tremendously.

But, in Game 4 and Game 5, both the players and Joe were better.  Joe did better with his timeout usage and with his rotations.  The team -- besides shooting -- was noticeably playing harder, committing to defense, and moving the ball.

Sure, but going from 10.3 points a game or 31 points off threes to 17 threes a game or 51 points off threes is a 20 point swing. That's how you go from losing twice by 5-10 points to winning twice by 10-15 points. Also the Heat not shooting 50% from three twice helped.

Everything around the edges looks a lot better when you hit shots and the opponent doesn't make all theirs.

My point being the "fire Joe" stuff was at least partly an over reaction to insane shooting variance. Could Joe have been better games 1-3? Yes. But when the opponent shoots 48% from three and you shoot 29% from three in those games you are likely going to lose almost regardless of how the coach uses timeouts or who he decides to play.

The c's don't HAVE TO hit 16-18 threes to beat the Heat, but they can't win games if the Heat are hitting more despite lower volume.

Whoa. Be careful. You're not supposed to make thoughtful rational points in threads like this. Just warning you....  ;D