Debate over. Tom Better than Bill

[KG Living Legend]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?


 So Bill won 47% of games without Tom in 166 attempts. That's not good at all Rex Ryan did better, Pete Carrol, Jack Del Rio was better almost everyone in the top 50 coached of all time won a higher % of games than Bill in a Huge simple size.


 In 285 games with Brady, Tom won 77% of all those games. Unreal.

That's the facts people. Bill is a below average Head Coach without Tom and the considered the GOAT with Tom.

 Except he's not. He's the luckiest coach of all time the LOAT. Great defensive coach though no doubt.

[celticsclay]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. The bulk of your point is based on bill repeatedly winning 5, 6 and 7 wins with Cleveland for like 4 - 5 seasons literally 30 years ago. You are too good a poster to do this.

I mean what does this have to do with Brady or anything
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1991_roster.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1992_roster.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1993_roster.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1995_roster.htm

[KG Living Legend]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.


 

[KG Living Legend]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. The bulk of your point is based on bill repeatedly winning 5, 6 and 7 wins with Cleveland for like 4 - 5 seasons literally 30 years ago. You are too good a poster to do this.

I mean what does this have to do with Brady or anything
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1991_roster.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1993_roster.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1995_roster.htm

 Clay these argument keep falling apart. Your too good of poster to not do the math, i joke I kid.

 Without Tom on the Patriots,  A 5 billion dollar team with unlimited resources. He's again under 500.

36 wins and 38 losses .486%. Not good at all!

There is no good argument that Bill is good without Tom Brady.

[celticsclay]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.

You are literally talking about bills coaching record based on teams with Bernie kosar and vinny testaverde? How is that relevant? It just seems like you have some personal issue with bill and are making an extremely misguided argument that numerous other posters have pointed out is silly. It’s like asking if coffee is better than gymnastics. They don’t even have the same profession. You usually make coherent good points and like your contributions so don’t get this hill you want to die on.

[PAOBoston]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.

I would like to know why Brady can’t win without Bruce Arians? 24-9 w/Arians. 8-9 w/out Arians. Brady also never had a losing season w/Belichick. Can Brady only win with great head coaches? What does this mean for his legacy?

[KG Living Legend]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.

You are literally talking about bills coaching record based on teams with Bernie kosar and vinny testaverde? How is that relevant? It just seems like you have some personal issue with bill and are making an extremely misguided argument that numerous other posters have pointed out is silly. It’s like asking if coffee is better than gymnastics. They don’t even have the same profession. You usually make coherent good points and like your contributions so don’t get this hill you want to die on.

 Update Clay I'm talking about the Patriots without Tom, when you include The Cassell year he's 36 and 38 on the Pats without Tom.

 Two years with first round Stud Mac Jones. We finished 8 wins and 9 losses this year which is on par with his entire career without Brady.

 Just under .500%

[KG Living Legend]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.

I would like to know why Brady can’t win without Bruce Arians? 24-9 w/Arians. 8-9 w/out Arians. Brady also never had a losing season w/Belichick. Can Brady only win with great head coaches? What does this mean for his legacy?

 Bruce is a very good coach and that was Toms prove it year so tons of Motivation for Tom. He's 45 now and declining really fast and like you said poor coaching.

[Neurotic Guy]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.

You left out Gronk, Faulk, Welker, Edelman, White, Watson - all who had pretty substantial impact on the passing game and fit Brady’s passing style/preferences perfectly. 
You are trying to make the case that Brady was at some sort of roster deficit for much of his career (which, btw, would mean that BB was also at a roster deficit).  It isn’t true for the most part.  And one could make the argument that the reason Manning didn’t win 6 SBs with all his weapons in Indy was coaching. 

[Roy H.]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.

You left out Gronk, Faulk, Welker, Edelman, White, Watson - all who had pretty substantial impact on the passing game and fit Brady’s passing style/preferences perfectly. 
You are trying to make the case that Brady was at some sort of roster deficit for much of his career (which, btw, would mean that BB was also at a roster deficit).  It isn’t true for the most part.  And one could make the argument that the reason Manning didn’t win 6 SBs with all his weapons in Indy was coaching.

Also, not all of those Super Bowl wins were won on the backs of the offense.  Five out of the six wins were one score games, with the other being a 13-3 victory.  With a lesser defense or special teams, Brady looks a lot worse.  The Patriots titles have all been a total team effort, although I do attribute the lion's share of the win over Atlanta to Brady (and to Atlanta's choke job).

[Donoghus]

One of the dumber premises I've read. 

It's pretty simple that neither would've enjoyed the successes they had without the help of the other.

[KG Living Legend]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.

You left out Gronk, Faulk, Welker, Edelman, White, Watson - all who had pretty substantial impact on the passing game and fit Brady’s passing style/preferences perfectly. 
You are trying to make the case that Brady was at some sort of roster deficit for much of his career (which, btw, would mean that BB was also at a roster deficit).  It isn’t true for the most part.  And one could make the argument that the reason Manning didn’t win 6 SBs with all his weapons in Indy was coaching.

 More like Brady was just better than Manning when it really counted and Bill was always great in the defensive side of the Ball.

 Brady would have won just as many titles with any other competent coach. The idea that only Bill could coach Tom is a false precise.

 Still haven't heard a good argument as to why Bill has NEVER won without Tom.

[Vermont Green]

Per Statmuse:

The New England Patriots are 22-8 with Matt Cassel all-time.

That is a pretty good record of winning without Brady.  And it is relevant as it is more or less the same timeframe of Brady with similar rosters in New England, similar talent and coaching.  Cassel has a 52-55 record overall (30-47 without Belichick).

Brady was smart.  He went to a very good situation in TB, and he won.  Now the team isn't so good and he is 8-9.  Let's see how he does if he decides to play for the Raiders.

[Neurotic Guy]

 Will someone address the elephant in the room. Tell me why in about ten years of coaching Without Brady.

 Why could bill only win about 45% of the 166 games without Tom?

Kg don’t just double and triple down on a random point that doesn’t make much sense. You are too good a poster to do this.

 I just updated the stats tell me if this sways you.

 I just want to get the point across that Bill while good is vastly overrated. While Tom might be underrated.

 Tom never had great weapons like Peyton, Golden Joe, Bradahaw, Aikman, Young

 One year of Prime Randy Moss and Deon Branch.
 The recievers we did win with Patten, Brown, Giving,

 It's absolutely amazing Tom won most of those suberbowls with not only a number one receiver,  but not even a number two on a truly great team.

You left out Gronk, Faulk, Welker, Edelman, White, Watson - all who had pretty substantial impact on the passing game and fit Brady’s passing style/preferences perfectly. 
You are trying to make the case that Brady was at some sort of roster deficit for much of his career (which, btw, would mean that BB was also at a roster deficit).  It isn’t true for the most part.  And one could make the argument that the reason Manning didn’t win 6 SBs with all his weapons in Indy was coaching.

 More like Brady was just better than Manning when it really counted and Bill was always great in the defensive side of the Ball.

 Brady would have won just as many titles with any other competent coach. The idea that only Bill could coach Tom is a false precise.

 Still haven't heard a good argument as to why Bill has NEVER won without Tom.

I’m pretty sure no one said only Bill could coach Tom.  Bill won Super Bowls as a defensive coordinator in NY, but you are correct, never as a HC without Tom. I don’t think Landry won without Staubach, Noll without Bradshaw, Johnson without Aikman, Walsh without Montana, Lombardi without Starr. All good coaches as is Bill.  All I can say is I doubt Brady wins 6 and goes to 9 without BB, without good D, without weak division.  Other factors too.
Brady is greatest of all time.  Nonetheless he benefited from others including BB. Brady and Bill are the people most responsible for the 6 championships. If it matters that much who is more responsible, I guess I probably go with 60-40 Brady - but it doesn’t matter and isn’t really quantifiable. .

[Donoghus]

Per Statmuse:

The New England Patriots are 22-8 with Matt Cassel all-time.

That is a pretty good record of winning without Brady.  And it is relevant as it is more or less the same timeframe of Brady with similar rosters in New England, similar talent and coaching.  Cassel has a 52-55 record overall (30-47 without Belichick).

Brady was smart.  He went to a very good situation in TB, and he won.  Now the team isn't so good and he is 8-9.  Let's see how he does if he decides to play for the Raiders.

Half that record should be thrown out due to mop up duty. It really should be his record as a starter.  He didn’t start 30 games for the Patriots.