Author Topic: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill  (Read 9005 times)

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Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2023, 04:57:28 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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We’re still doing this?  Tom is the best QB ever and Bill is the best coach ever.  We were lucky enough to witness them together for about 20 years.  Why does it matter who gets more credit?  It’s always been about the team.

Pats and Bucs had literally the same record this year, with the Pats getting pretty ripped off in at least 3 games. Only reason Tom is even in the playoffs is because his division was ass. Leaving a reeling Pats team for a SB ready-made team needing just a competent QB isn't the greatest argument. Let's have this debate when Tom wins another Super Bowl.

And, no, I don't think either is more responsible than the other. They are both equally important in the Pats dynasty - each the best ever.


 Brady is now 30 and 17 with the Bucs. Bill is under 500 without Tom. Its Tom people.

 Zero evidence Bill wins even one SB with guys like Jimmy G, Matt Cassel, Mac Jones, Ryan Mallett.

 Think about it, Bill got lucky with the greatest pick of all time. Its that simple.

Feels like you are just randomly looking to take a shot at bill. You realize the patriots won a super bowl where the patriots scored 13 total points? This is the kind to skip Bayless nonsense we don’t need. They are both very good at what they did and have both been for a very long time. No need to degrade one of them to prop the other up. Plus Brady and bill may be reunited next season.


 How's his 52 man roster without Brady?  Its 79 wins and 87 losses. This is a fact, it's a large simple size. He's an excellent defensive coach. Bill Parcells was a better head coach, Bill walsh was better,  there are many better than Bill.

 Time to come to grips with reality. 219 wins and 64 losses with Tom taking snaps. Andy Reid would have won at 6 or more with Brady.

Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2023, 05:34:13 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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We’re still doing this?  Tom is the best QB ever and Bill is the best coach ever.  We were lucky enough to witness them together for about 20 years.  Why does it matter who gets more credit?  It’s always been about the team.

Pats and Bucs had literally the same record this year, with the Pats getting pretty ripped off in at least 3 games. Only reason Tom is even in the playoffs is because his division was ass. Leaving a reeling Pats team for a SB ready-made team needing just a competent QB isn't the greatest argument. Let's have this debate when Tom wins another Super Bowl.

And, no, I don't think either is more responsible than the other. They are both equally important in the Pats dynasty - each the best ever.


 Brady is now 30 and 17 with the Bucs. Bill is under 500 without Tom. Its Tom people.

 Zero evidence Bill wins even one SB with guys like Jimmy G, Matt Cassel, Mac Jones, Ryan Mallett.

 Think about it, Bill got lucky with the greatest pick of all time. Its that simple.

Feels like you are just randomly looking to take a shot at bill. You realize the patriots won a super bowl where the patriots scored 13 total points? This is the kind to skip Bayless nonsense we don’t need. They are both very good at what they did and have both been for a very long time. No need to degrade one of them to prop the other up. Plus Brady and bill may be reunited next season.


 How's his 52 man roster without Brady?  Its 79 wins and 87 losses. This is a fact, it's a large simple size. He's an excellent defensive coach. Bill Parcells was a better head coach, Bill walsh was better,  there are many better than Bill.

 Time to come to grips with reality. 219 wins and 64 losses with Tom taking snaps. Andy Reid would have won at 6 or more with Brady.

Andy Reid has won 1 with Mahomes who is Brady’s equal in terms of player skill (hard to compare of course as they so different).  TB is miles ahead of Mahomes as a career, but skill-wise at their best, I’d be tempted to take Mahomes. 
Also, only fair to likewise speculate whether BB with Peyton, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees  etc. would have won multiple SBs. Probably.  Doubtfully as many as Brady since TB is the best in history over time, but I could see either of the 3-win eras happening with other great qbs.   What does this post prove?  Ahhh…nothing.

Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2023, 06:52:55 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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We’re still doing this?  Tom is the best QB ever and Bill is the best coach ever.  We were lucky enough to witness them together for about 20 years.  Why does it matter who gets more credit?  It’s always been about the team.

Pats and Bucs had literally the same record this year, with the Pats getting pretty ripped off in at least 3 games. Only reason Tom is even in the playoffs is because his division was ass. Leaving a reeling Pats team for a SB ready-made team needing just a competent QB isn't the greatest argument. Let's have this debate when Tom wins another Super Bowl.

And, no, I don't think either is more responsible than the other. They are both equally important in the Pats dynasty - each the best ever.


 Brady is now 30 and 17 with the Bucs. Bill is under 500 without Tom. Its Tom people.

 Zero evidence Bill wins even one SB with guys like Jimmy G, Matt Cassel, Mac Jones, Ryan Mallett.

 Think about it, Bill got lucky with the greatest pick of all time. Its that simple.

Feels like you are just randomly looking to take a shot at bill. You realize the patriots won a super bowl where the patriots scored 13 total points? This is the kind to skip Bayless nonsense we don’t need. They are both very good at what they did and have both been for a very long time. No need to degrade one of them to prop the other up. Plus Brady and bill may be reunited next season.


 How's his 52 man roster without Brady?  Its 79 wins and 87 losses. This is a fact, it's a large simple size. He's an excellent defensive coach. Bill Parcells was a better head coach, Bill walsh was better,  there are many better than Bill.

 Time to come to grips with reality. 219 wins and 64 losses with Tom taking snaps. Andy Reid would have won at 6 or more with Brady.

Are you really sitting here attempting to argue that head coach and qb are the only things that matter for wins in the nfl? This is quite strange. Like I said, this just seems like a random way to insult bill. I’m not even a huge bill fan. Im just not getting the concept you are trying to raise. It just doesn’t really make any sense. Peyton and maholmes are great qbs but at times there teams had issues with their line, defense etc. it doesn’t make them better or worse as players or their coaches better or worse.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 07:20:35 PM by celticsclay »

Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2023, 07:10:09 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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We’re still doing this?  Tom is the best QB ever and Bill is the best coach ever.  We were lucky enough to witness them together for about 20 years.  Why does it matter who gets more credit?  It’s always been about the team.

Pats and Bucs had literally the same record this year, with the Pats getting pretty ripped off in at least 3 games. Only reason Tom is even in the playoffs is because his division was ass. Leaving a reeling Pats team for a SB ready-made team needing just a competent QB isn't the greatest argument. Let's have this debate when Tom wins another Super Bowl.

And, no, I don't think either is more responsible than the other. They are both equally important in the Pats dynasty - each the best ever.


 Brady is now 30 and 17 with the Bucs. Bill is under 500 without Tom. Its Tom people.

 Zero evidence Bill wins even one SB with guys like Jimmy G, Matt Cassel, Mac Jones, Ryan Mallett.

 Think about it, Bill got lucky with the greatest pick of all time. Its that simple.

Feels like you are just randomly looking to take a shot at bill. You realize the patriots won a super bowl where the patriots scored 13 total points? This is the kind to skip Bayless nonsense we don’t need. They are both very good at what they did and have both been for a very long time. No need to degrade one of them to prop the other up. Plus Brady and bill may be reunited next season.


 How's his 52 man roster without Brady?  Its 79 wins and 87 losses. This is a fact, it's a large simple size. He's an excellent defensive coach. Bill Parcells was a better head coach, Bill walsh was better,  there are many better than Bill.

 Time to come to grips with reality. 219 wins and 64 losses with Tom taking snaps. Andy Reid would have won at 6 or more with Brady.

Andy Reid has won 1 with Mahomes who is Brady’s equal in terms of player skill (hard to compare of course as they so different).  TB is miles ahead of Mahomes as a career, but skill-wise at their best, I’d be tempted to take Mahomes. 
Also, only fair to likewise speculate whether BB with Peyton, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees  etc. would have won multiple SBs. Probably.  Doubtfully as many as Brady since TB is the best in history over time, but I could see either of the 3-win eras happening with other great qbs.   What does this post prove?  Ahhh…nothing.

I don’t think Brady should be compared to anyone but Montana. Mahomes is physically more talented, as is Rodgers, however, Brady is on a different planet when it comes to being clutch and his IQ/decision making.
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Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2023, 04:42:08 AM »

Online ozgod

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Tom is definitely a better quarterback than Bill.

But, Bill is probably a better coach.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2023, 09:35:32 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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Tom is definitely a better quarterback than Bill.

But, Bill is probably a better coach.

I agree. Mortal Kombat is a very good game but Donkey Kong is the best.

This convo seems to devolve into some revisionist history that Bill wasn’t hugely influential in 6 SB victories. Why would people distort the truth? Bill seems like a jerk.

Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2023, 10:44:30 AM »

Online ozgod

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Tom is definitely a better quarterback than Bill.

But, Bill is probably a better coach.

I agree. Mortal Kombat is a very good game but Donkey Kong is the best.

This convo seems to devolve into some revisionist history that Bill wasn’t hugely influential in 6 SB victories. Why would people distort the truth? Bill seems like a jerk.

Debating who is better just seems odd to me given Bill and Tom are in different professions but are both engaged in a common goal of winning football games. Kind of like asking if a hammer is more important than a nail in building a house.

But if the question was, who was more influential in the Patriots’ dynasty, that’s more open to discussion. I suspect that neither would have been as successful without the other. Tom needed a team and environment and coach to get the best out of him, while recent history suggests that having a world class quarterback is important. But then there’s all those other important members of those winning Patriot teams - receivers to throw to, running backs to provide alternate options, an offensive line to protect the QB, a defense to stop the other team scoring…it’s really an ensemble effort.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2023, 10:52:01 AM »

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I do want to point out, Belichick is 70 years old. So I don't think it's unfair to say that yeah, maybe Belichick has lost his fastball in recent years too,  but again, the guy is 70 years old!

I think Brady is 60% responsible for the dynasty, Belichick 40%, but lets not act silly and act like Belichick also didn't contribute immensely to it in the past 20 years. Brady isn't responsible for organizing and running the defense either.

That said, the NFL is a QB league. Like don't get me wrong, Andy Reid is a great HOF-caliber coach, but be real, are the Chiefs elite now primarily because of Reid or Mahomes? You can do a similar exercise with a lot of great coach-QB duos, the reality is the QB will get the benefit the most, but I don't think that's unreasonable. As Belichick himself has said numerous times after Super Bowls, it's "all about the players, they execute and put in the work"

Another quote is, "the coach's job is to not lose you games", and look at some of the dysfunctional teams around the league. It's mainly due to bad coaching. Unfortunately that also applies to NE in 2022, since they had bad offensive coaching (Patricia-Judge)
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Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2023, 11:34:22 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Debate over?  Heh.  This will be debated for eternity.

I think the only thing that most would agree is that both are approaching the end of their time.  Not sure which is more remarkable, Brady still playing at 45 or Belichick still coaching at 70.  Probably Brady I guess.  I suppose there have been a few other 70 year old coaches but I can't think of another QB that was still a starter at age 45.

George Blanda played to 48 but he was a kicker and back up QB for the last several years.  Steve DeBerg did start one game at age 44 but was a back up, hadn't been a starter in a while I don't think.

Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2023, 03:28:28 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Debate over?  Heh.  This will be debated for eternity.

I think the only thing that most would agree is that both are approaching the end of their time.  Not sure which is more remarkable, Brady still playing at 45 or Belichick still coaching at 70.  Probably Brady I guess.  I suppose there have been a few other 70 year old coaches but I can't think of another QB that was still a starter at age 45.

George Blanda played to 48 but he was a kicker and back up QB for the last several years.  Steve DeBerg did start one game at age 44 but was a back up, hadn't been a starter in a while I don't think.

Hey - 70 is young now.  Right?

Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2023, 03:32:25 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Debate over?  Heh.  This will be debated for eternity.

I think the only thing that most would agree is that both are approaching the end of their time.  Not sure which is more remarkable, Brady still playing at 45 or Belichick still coaching at 70.  Probably Brady I guess.  I suppose there have been a few other 70 year old coaches but I can't think of another QB that was still a starter at age 45.

George Blanda played to 48 but he was a kicker and back up QB for the last several years.  Steve DeBerg did start one game at age 44 but was a back up, hadn't been a starter in a while I don't think.

Hey - 70 is young now.  Right?

Shula is within striking distance.  Have to imagine he's gonna stick around for that.


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Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2023, 03:33:37 PM »

Online Phantom255x

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Debate over?  Heh.  This will be debated for eternity.

I think the only thing that most would agree is that both are approaching the end of their time.  Not sure which is more remarkable, Brady still playing at 45 or Belichick still coaching at 70.  Probably Brady I guess.  I suppose there have been a few other 70 year old coaches but I can't think of another QB that was still a starter at age 45.

George Blanda played to 48 but he was a kicker and back up QB for the last several years.  Steve DeBerg did start one game at age 44 but was a back up, hadn't been a starter in a while I don't think.

Hey - 70 is young now.  Right?

Shula is within striking distance.  Have to imagine he's gonna stick around for that.

Truth be told I think that's the main reason he's still coaching. I think if he had already passed Shula 1-2 years ago, he might have decided to retire.

Or he genuinely loves football too and will actually coach until he's 75, we'll see lol
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Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2023, 03:35:56 PM »

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Debate over?  Heh.  This will be debated for eternity.

I think the only thing that most would agree is that both are approaching the end of their time.  Not sure which is more remarkable, Brady still playing at 45 or Belichick still coaching at 70.  Probably Brady I guess.  I suppose there have been a few other 70 year old coaches but I can't think of another QB that was still a starter at age 45.

George Blanda played to 48 but he was a kicker and back up QB for the last several years.  Steve DeBerg did start one game at age 44 but was a back up, hadn't been a starter in a while I don't think.

Hey - 70 is young now.  Right?

Shula is within striking distance.  Have to imagine he's gonna stick around for that.

Truth be told I think that's the main reason he's still coaching. I think if he had already passed Shula 1-2 years ago, he might have decided to retire.

Or he genuinely loves football too and will actually coach until he's 75, we'll see lol

Shula was pretty critical of Belichick when he was alive so wouldn't surprise me at all that Belichick would love nothing more than satisfaction of passing him.

Also, he definitely loves it.


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Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2023, 03:55:56 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I'm old enough to remember the early Brady years when he was accused of being a system quarterback. I don't think it was ever really true but I think it's a fair question to ask if Brady could have become as great as he did (the best football player of all time) without Bill's coaching and without the opportunities to develop he was granted by riding some great defenses to early superbowls.
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Re: Debate over. Tom Better than Bill
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2023, 06:13:55 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I'm old enough to remember the early Brady years when he was accused of being a system quarterback. I don't think it was ever really true but I think it's a fair question to ask if Brady could have become as great as he did (the best football player of all time) without Bill's coaching and without the opportunities to develop he was granted by riding some great defenses to early superbowls.

Those trying to take shots at BB forget Brady in his first couple of years. Brady turned into the greatest qb after time. He won games quickly, but he wasn’t an explosive QB. He was helped out by a talented veteran defense. Look at the game logs.