Author Topic: Patriots 2022 Season  (Read 71477 times)

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Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2022, 11:32:16 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The Patriots have not drafted well in a decade.  They haven't had real impact from free agency in longer than that.  Bill the GM just isn't very good.  They needed to replace Pioli with someone competent and didn't and the scouting and front office hasn't been the same.  That obviously doesn't mean they didn't get some great players, of course they have, but not at near the level they were previously.
I love it when you say things like this. Some of the draft picks the Pats have made in the last decade:
Chandler Jones - Dont'a Hightower - Tavon Wilson - Nate Ebner - Jamie Collins - Logan Ryan - Duron Harmon - Trey Flowers - Shaq Mason - Joe Thuney - Deatrich Wise - Isaiah Wynn - Damien Harris - Mike Onwenu - Mac Jones - Kyle Dugger - Christian Barmore - Rhamondre Stevenson

The majority of those players have had significant roles in SB winning teams, and have at different times been regarded as some of the best in their position.
That is less than 20 players.  There are 7 rounds.  Every team will draft good players, but the Patriots have been missing far more than most teams and far more than they were before they let Pioli leave and didn't replace him.

Is there an analysis on this anywhere?
Only one I could find went back to 2012 which was one of the best Patriots draft classes, but is also outside of the last decade.  That 10 year period they were in the top 10, but that 2012 class i.e. the one with Jones, Hightower, Wilson, and Ebner definitely skews them up.  That ESPN article does think very highly of the 2021 draft class though, but it is so hard to really rate a class with just 1 year in the league.

Quote
Best class from 2012-2021 drafts: 2021. It was a battle of the "bookend" classes between 2021 (QB Mac Jones, DT Christian Barmore, RB Rhamondre Stevenson) and 2012 (LB Chandler Jones, LB Dont'a Hightower, S Nate Ebner). A case could be made for either, but perhaps most telling is that the years in between garnered so little consideration. Maybe 2016 (G Joe Thuney, WR Malcolm Mitchell, LB Elandon Roberts, C Ted Karras) deserves some respect, but in the end, the early returns on last year's class move it to the top of the list ... for now. -- Mike Reiss

The Patriots have found some gems in later rounds though.  A guy like Shaq Mason is an excellent draft pick, of course the guy they took 20 spots before Mason, Tre' Jackson, played only 13 games in the league. 
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2022, 11:38:40 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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The Patriots have not drafted well in a decade.  They haven't had real impact from free agency in longer than that.  Bill the GM just isn't very good.  They needed to replace Pioli with someone competent and didn't and the scouting and front office hasn't been the same.  That obviously doesn't mean they didn't get some great players, of course they have, but not at near the level they were previously.
I love it when you say things like this. Some of the draft picks the Pats have made in the last decade:
Chandler Jones - Dont'a Hightower - Tavon Wilson - Nate Ebner - Jamie Collins - Logan Ryan - Duron Harmon - Trey Flowers - Shaq Mason - Joe Thuney - Deatrich Wise - Isaiah Wynn - Damien Harris - Mike Onwenu - Mac Jones - Kyle Dugger - Christian Barmore - Rhamondre Stevenson

The majority of those players have had significant roles in SB winning teams, and have at different times been regarded as some of the best in their position.
That is less than 20 players.  There are 7 rounds.  Every team will draft good players, but the Patriots have been missing far more than most teams and far more than they were before they let Pioli leave and didn't replace him.

Is there an analysis on this anywhere?
Only one I could find went back to 2012 which was one of the best Patriots draft classes, but is also outside of the last decade.  That 10 year period they were in the top 10, but that 2012 class i.e. the one with Jones, Hightower, Wilson, and Ebner definitely skews them up.  That ESPN article does think very highly of the 2021 draft class though, but it is so hard to really rate a class with just 1 year in the league.

Quote
Best class from 2012-2021 drafts: 2021. It was a battle of the "bookend" classes between 2021 (QB Mac Jones, DT Christian Barmore, RB Rhamondre Stevenson) and 2012 (LB Chandler Jones, LB Dont'a Hightower, S Nate Ebner). A case could be made for either, but perhaps most telling is that the years in between garnered so little consideration. Maybe 2016 (G Joe Thuney, WR Malcolm Mitchell, LB Elandon Roberts, C Ted Karras) deserves some respect, but in the end, the early returns on last year's class move it to the top of the list ... for now. -- Mike Reiss

The Patriots have found some gems in later rounds though.  A guy like Shaq Mason is an excellent draft pick, of course the guy they took 20 spots before Mason, Tre' Jackson, played only 13 games in the league.

So how does that compare to other teams in the same timeframe?  Are the Patriots "missing far more than most teams"?


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Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2022, 11:59:57 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.



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Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2022, 12:02:40 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The Patriots have not drafted well in a decade.  They haven't had real impact from free agency in longer than that.  Bill the GM just isn't very good.  They needed to replace Pioli with someone competent and didn't and the scouting and front office hasn't been the same.  That obviously doesn't mean they didn't get some great players, of course they have, but not at near the level they were previously.
I love it when you say things like this. Some of the draft picks the Pats have made in the last decade:
Chandler Jones - Dont'a Hightower - Tavon Wilson - Nate Ebner - Jamie Collins - Logan Ryan - Duron Harmon - Trey Flowers - Shaq Mason - Joe Thuney - Deatrich Wise - Isaiah Wynn - Damien Harris - Mike Onwenu - Mac Jones - Kyle Dugger - Christian Barmore - Rhamondre Stevenson

The majority of those players have had significant roles in SB winning teams, and have at different times been regarded as some of the best in their position.
That is less than 20 players.  There are 7 rounds.  Every team will draft good players, but the Patriots have been missing far more than most teams and far more than they were before they let Pioli leave and didn't replace him.

Is there an analysis on this anywhere?
Only one I could find went back to 2012 which was one of the best Patriots draft classes, but is also outside of the last decade.  That 10 year period they were in the top 10, but that 2012 class i.e. the one with Jones, Hightower, Wilson, and Ebner definitely skews them up.  That ESPN article does think very highly of the 2021 draft class though, but it is so hard to really rate a class with just 1 year in the league.

Quote
Best class from 2012-2021 drafts: 2021. It was a battle of the "bookend" classes between 2021 (QB Mac Jones, DT Christian Barmore, RB Rhamondre Stevenson) and 2012 (LB Chandler Jones, LB Dont'a Hightower, S Nate Ebner). A case could be made for either, but perhaps most telling is that the years in between garnered so little consideration. Maybe 2016 (G Joe Thuney, WR Malcolm Mitchell, LB Elandon Roberts, C Ted Karras) deserves some respect, but in the end, the early returns on last year's class move it to the top of the list ... for now. -- Mike Reiss

The Patriots have found some gems in later rounds though.  A guy like Shaq Mason is an excellent draft pick, of course the guy they took 20 spots before Mason, Tre' Jackson, played only 13 games in the league.

So how does that compare to other teams in the same timeframe?  Are the Patriots "missing far more than most teams"?
Sure, 2013-2022 they've been in the bottom half.  Some very good players, but a ton of busts.  Not the worst by any stretch, but for a team that has been as good, record wise, they haven't done very well comparatively and Brady masked a whole lot of the issues. 
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2022, 12:03:02 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

Yeah that has definitely been their weakness. Would like to see an analysis rather than just blanket statements like they “have more misses than most.” The defense was top 10 for almost all of Brady’s tenure. Acting like that was happening with awful drafting is flat out ridiculous.

Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2022, 12:04:01 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.


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Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2022, 12:05:18 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.
Sure because of Brady, but Brady isn't walking through that door.
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2022, 12:08:46 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.

Alright, that's fair.  2018 to 2020 look like they sucked.  Out of all of them, I thought Winovich was going to be a stud.  I thought Wynn and Michel would be pretty good, too.


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Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2022, 12:09:40 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.
Sure because of Brady, but Brady isn't walking through that door.

Most reasonable people understand that.  So what?


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Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2022, 12:20:41 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.
Sure because of Brady, but Brady isn't walking through that door.

Most reasonable people understand that.  So what?

Are people really ignoring that our last super bowl our defense gave up 3 points? And our offense scored 13? Brady is awesome but acting like he was playing alongside the Washington generals strikes me as people not actually following football.

Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2022, 12:47:13 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.
Sure because of Brady, but Brady isn't walking through that door.

Most reasonable people understand that.  So what?
well lackluster drafting sort of matters going forward, does it not?  It is a results oriented league right?  We are talking about the future.  There is no question Patriots fans should be happy with the 3 Super Bowl wins, who wouldn't be, the question is, when will the next one come and that doesn't look so promising. 
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2022, 12:58:21 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.
Sure because of Brady, but Brady isn't walking through that door.

Most reasonable people understand that.  So what?
well lackluster drafting sort of matters going forward, does it not?  It is a results oriented league right?  We are talking about the future.  There is no question Patriots fans should be happy with the 3 Super Bowl wins, who wouldn't be, the question is, when will the next one come and that doesn't look so promising.

Sure.  And while the drafting has been lackluster, its also not the only way to build a football team.  Trades & free agency are other avenues to build a football team.   No one said it would be easy to maintain a playoff caliber team in the post Brady era.  After one year away, the Pats were back in the playoffs last year.  They haven't exactly bottomed out.  We're not exactly talking Tom Landry late 80s territory here. 

You're a big Ravens guy. Are you happy where drafting has gotten them since their Super Bowl XLVII victory?  2 playoff wins since '14.

I'd just love to know the bellweather we're talking about here.   Where do all 32 teams rank in terms of drafting the past decade? 


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Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2022, 01:33:20 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.
Sure because of Brady, but Brady isn't walking through that door.

Most reasonable people understand that.  So what?
well lackluster drafting sort of matters going forward, does it not?  It is a results oriented league right?  We are talking about the future.  There is no question Patriots fans should be happy with the 3 Super Bowl wins, who wouldn't be, the question is, when will the next one come and that doesn't look so promising.

Sure.  And while the drafting has been lackluster, its also not the only way to build a football team.  Trades & free agency are other avenues to build a football team.   No one said it would be easy to maintain a playoff caliber team in the post Brady era.  After one year away, the Pats were back in the playoffs last year.  They haven't exactly bottomed out.  We're not exactly talking Tom Landry late 80s territory here. 

You're a big Ravens guy. Are you happy where drafting has gotten them since their Super Bowl XLVII victory?  2 playoff wins since '14.

I'd just love to know the bellweather we're talking about here.   Where do all 32 teams rank in terms of drafting the past decade?

I will be interested in how the ravens do this year, outside of mark andrews their skill position players look extremely weak, which may make it easier for teams to stop lamar from running. They also continue to have issues with injuries at running backs and just signed drake off the street. They have a fairly tough schedule playing the afc east and at Tampa, at New Orleans and at home versus Denver  (only clear win their is probably the jets) on top of a tough division. Some easier games potentially against jags, giants and falcons.

Patriots are kind of same boat. I could see them winning anywhere from 6-11 wins.

Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2022, 02:11:50 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.
Sure because of Brady, but Brady isn't walking through that door.

Most reasonable people understand that.  So what?
well lackluster drafting sort of matters going forward, does it not?  It is a results oriented league right?  We are talking about the future.  There is no question Patriots fans should be happy with the 3 Super Bowl wins, who wouldn't be, the question is, when will the next one come and that doesn't look so promising.

Sure.  And while the drafting has been lackluster, its also not the only way to build a football team.  Trades & free agency are other avenues to build a football team.   No one said it would be easy to maintain a playoff caliber team in the post Brady era.  After one year away, the Pats were back in the playoffs last year.  They haven't exactly bottomed out.  We're not exactly talking Tom Landry late 80s territory here. 

You're a big Ravens guy. Are you happy where drafting has gotten them since their Super Bowl XLVII victory?  2 playoff wins since '14.

I'd just love to know the bellweather we're talking about here.   Where do all 32 teams rank in terms of drafting the past decade?
The Ravens have pretty consistently rated very highly in the drafting department, but they, like all teams have had their share of misses.  Flacco and Lamar aren't exactly Brady though.  This year will be pretty interesting as I like most of the off season moves and they will be healthier than last year (I heard they had the most man-games missed due to injury of any team in NFL history last year).  They were 8-3 and the #1 seed last year before the injuries just became too much to overcome.  I think Bateman is going to have a breakout year as the #1 WR and Andrews will continue to be among the league leaders for receptions.  They need Dobbins to be back soon, though Davis and Drake should be ok for a couple of weeks (Edwards should be back this year as well).  They should go from perhaps the weakest secondary at the end of last year to one of the best entering the season (Peters, Humphrey, Williams, Hamilton) and of course have the best kicker in NFL history.  There is a lot to like in Baltimore, both this year and moving forward. 
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Patriots 2022 Season
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2022, 02:26:46 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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I only casually follow the Pats, but my opinion -- with no real basis -- is that they've been pretty good drafting everywhere other than WR.  They drafted Branch and Edelman (who they converted to wideout), but in the past 12+ years have they gotten anybody who could even be considered better than average?

But, in terms of defense, offensive line, special teams, even QB, I think they've been pretty good.

They were pretty decent up until 2018.   It's been pretty bad since then.  Barnwell actually did a write up on it the other day.

https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1564643746578407424

Still, pretty much any fanbase would kill to have 3 Super Bowl championships in the past decade. Lackluster drafting or not, its still a results oriented league.  Now, the future might not be terribly bright but I don't think most Pats fans are too depressed about how things played out the last decade.
Sure because of Brady, but Brady isn't walking through that door.

Most reasonable people understand that.  So what?
well lackluster drafting sort of matters going forward, does it not?  It is a results oriented league right?  We are talking about the future.  There is no question Patriots fans should be happy with the 3 Super Bowl wins, who wouldn't be, the question is, when will the next one come and that doesn't look so promising.

I have to admit that the 20 year run was gratifying almost to the point where I’m somewhat complacent.  I’ll still be psyched for Sundays and will get excited when they play well and win and a little bummed when they don’t, but there’s definitely a degree of lower intensity in general.  I’d love to see Mac lead them to a SB in the next 5 years, and if he does I’m sure I’ll be ecstatic, but 20 years, 9 appearances, 6 wins… that’s crazy good fortune to be a fan in that era.  As many here I recall long droughts with bad or mediocre teams.  It won’t ever be the same moving forward as there will always be the Brady era to remember.