2021 CB Roster Thread

[gouki88]

This is essentially my preliminary thoughts on how my team will run. Definitely subject to some change, but I don't think too much change.

Allow me to wax lyrical just a little bit here. One of the more forgotten about teams in terms of all-time greatness is, in my eyes, the 1970-71 Milwaukee Bucks. They had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, a sophomore big man putting up truly absurd numbers with unstoppable post offence, amazing rebounding and elite rim protection. They had the Big O running the point, finally in a situation where it wasn't on him to have to score all the time, and thus he flourished in feeding those around him. They had Bob Dandridge, one of the forgotten elite scorers of the 70s who could do a bit of everything. They had Jon McGlocklin, one of the better perimeter shooters of the change of the decade. Smith, Boozer and Allen rounded out the rest of their rotation.
They had a highly efficient, yet unspectacular offence. Kareem was the dominant force in the NBA, the Big O was cementing himself as an all-time great floor general, Dandridge and McGlocklin were getting 15-20 points each night with ease. They cruised to a 66-16 record and dominated in the playoffs, only losing 2 games. They were a truly great team for that season.

That is the team I've sort of based my team off, in terms of the way I want my guys to play on offence. Embiid as the Kareem-type low post monster, Trae Young as the Oscar Robertson type finding all the open players, Beal as a super-McGlocklin with his perimeter scoring and ball-handling, and John Collins picking up easy points with his athleticism, efficiency and perimeter shooting, similar to Dandridge.
My team has three of the top-6 in free throws per game from last season (Embiid #1, Young #4, Beal #6). Free throws translate into really valuable offence in the important games as it allows my team to pressure the opposition with foul trouble.

Trae Young is one of the best passers in the game, and is more than willing to defer to whoever is open, or whoever might be open. Beal is an above average passing SG, as he showed in 19-20 before Westbrook came along. Barnes has developed into a really solid passing wing, and knows what it takes to win. Embiid is an underrated passer - he has had struggles in double-teams previously, but double-teaming him with Beal, Young, Barnes, Collins, Jamal Murray, Bogdanovic and Rozier flying around is done at your peril!

My bench has three guys who can do it all on offence - Murray, Rozier and Bogdanovic all can play on & off-ball, all are decent passers and good shooters. They're complemented by a highly athletic pass-first forward in Gordon, who also plays good defence.

Perimeter defence is probably my biggest weakness. Trae Young is a poor defender, Beal, Murray and Rozier are average, as is Collins. Embiid is an elite defensive anchor, Gordon and Barnes are both + defenders, and Bogdanovic IMO is a sneakily good defender, but it is still probably a weakness of mine. However, I don't think many teams have the ability to punish opposition teams on offence like mine. It might be a 150-140 All-Star type game, but I fancy my teams chances to take it home.

There are plenty of different lineups I can throw out, some examples being:
Young-Beal-Barnes-Collins-Embiid
Young-Murray-Beal-Gordon-Embiid
Rozier-Murray-Bogdanovic-Barnes-Collins
Young-Rozier-Bogdanovic-Gordon-Embiid
Murray-Beal-Barnes-Collins-Embiid

I like the idea of putting out Young-Murray-Beal-Collins-Embiid and letting any team try to defend it at their peril

If anyone wants someone I have in exchange for perimeter defence, I'm happy to hear out offers. But I like the idea of my group as the 1970-71 Bucks 50 years on, in Minnesota.

[Who]

My favourite lineups for you have Bogdanovic and Harrison Barnes at forward alongside Embiid at center. Then two of three of Trae, Beal or Jamal Murray.

I like the idea of Embiid and four smalls. Barnes is versatile enough defensively to maintain defensive integrity at PF. Bogdanovic is the best option at SF I reckon because all the guards like to handle the ball quite a bit so I feel Bogs keeps the peace best. Allows others to be their best selves.

[gouki88]

My favourite lineups for you have Bogdanovic and Harrison Barnes at forward alongside Embiid at center. Then two of three of Trae, Beal or Jamal Murray.

I like the idea of Embiid and four smalls. Barnes is versatile enough defensively to maintain defensive integrity at PF. Bogdanovic is the best option at SF I reckon because all the guards like to handle the ball quite a bit so I feel Bogs keeps the peace best. Allows others to be their best selves.

I have thought quite a bit about this. Collins as the small ball 5 off the bench, and a starting group of Young-Beal-Bogdanovic-Barnes-Embiid. It's a bit dependent on who is available in the next round for me

[theswitch]

My favourite lineups for you have Bogdanovic and Harrison Barnes at forward alongside Embiid at center. Then two of three of Trae, Beal or Jamal Murray.

I like the idea of Embiid and four smalls. Barnes is versatile enough defensively to maintain defensive integrity at PF. Bogdanovic is the best option at SF I reckon because all the guards like to handle the ball quite a bit so I feel Bogs keeps the peace best. Allows others to be their best selves.

I have thought quite a bit about this. Collins as the small ball 5 off the bench, and a starting group of Young-Beal-Bogdanovic-Barnes-Embiid. It's a bit dependent on who is available in the next round for me

I like this idea. If I'm being honest, I'm not a big fan of Trae Young -- I don't really like his game. But your pick of Jamal Murray was really helpful for me. He's obviously injured but isn't being judged the same way as some of the other injured players. He's a high pick talent (third round? something like that) who is easy to lump in with Mitchell based on their playoff battles. So he gives you optionality at a late round pick to fix your Trae problem for people (or maybe just me because others are more pro-Trae) who don't like Trae. All of those combinations (Trae, Murray, Beal) are impossible to stop.

[Somebody]

New York Knicks - Who #4 pick

G:
G: Zach LaVine
F: Luka Doncic
F:
C: Rudy Gobert

This seems a bit weird tbh. You plan to use Luka off the ball? ? ? I get that he operates as a forward on defense, but I can't imagine why you'd want him off the ball on offense. He's probably the best floor general in the NBA.

TP for making the thread btw!

These are defensive positions lol. Magic gets listed as a forward in these because he guarded the weakest forward on opposing teams.

Yep, Magic was a PF on defense and a PG on offense. Likewise, Luka is a swing on defense and a PG on offense. If these are defensive positions, then I stand corrected.

Btw, I believe Magic would have revolutionized the Center position in the modern NBA. After all, he famously won his first championship playing game 6 of the Finals at Center. He would have been the perfect Point Center in today's game. Even better than the Joker.

Jim Chones was guarding Darryl Dawkins that game to be fair, Magic guarded a forward per usual. I think he'd be an incredible PF in the modern game - imagine him running the fastbreak against big forwards in the NBA!

[Roy H.]

If I'm being honest, I'm not a big fan of Trae Young -- I don't really like his game.

Interesting.  I thought that Trae Young was one of the biggest steals in the draft.  This is a kid who averaged 30/9 two years ago, and who just led his team to the conference finals.  His shooting percentages aren't spectacular, but he makes up for it by getting to the line.  I expect his shooting will improve, to the point where he's the heir apparent to James Harden.

What don't you like?  Is it that he's not enjoyable to watch, or that you don't think his play is effective?

[theswitch]

If I'm being honest, I'm not a big fan of Trae Young -- I don't really like his game.

Interesting.  I thought that Trae Young was one of the biggest steals in the draft.  This is a kid who averaged 30/9 two years ago, and who just led his team to the conference finals.  His shooting percentages aren't spectacular, but he makes up for it by getting to the line.  I expect his shooting will improve, to the point where he's the heir apparent to James Harden.

What don't you like?  Is it that he's not enjoyable to watch, or that you don't think his play is effective?

I get all that, and I could be totally off on this kid because ultimately we are projecting out futures rather than where they are today. Trae did just lead his team to the ECF, but he did so shooting 41.8% from the field, launching 9 three pointers at 31.3% shooting, and not defending anyone. I'd personally argue the Hawks made it so far because of their holistic collection of talent (Trae, Bogdan, Hunter, Collins, Capela, Gallo, and a few undrafted players who are good) rather than just because of Trae. He's got one of the deepest rosters in the league. I mean, game 7 against the Sixers he went 5-23 from the field and 2-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers. They won. I'm not sure I would ascribe that to his performance versus an undrafted player went off for 27, Collins had 14 / 16 boards, Capela had 13, Gallo had 17 all on efficient shooting.

My beef with him is people salivate over his shooting (okay but not great -- 43%  and 34% for his career from the field and three, respectively, without improvement over time) and passing (which is definitely there but at the expense of a bunch of turnovers which rank him not-so-great in terms of overall efficiency). I think he basically is only so good because he found a loophole in how to draw fouls, and if teams figure out that loophole than he loses a big part of his game. Maybe he'll round out his game, maybe he won't -- we'll see.

And then defense - if you look at the RAPTOR 2x2 grid, he's literally the player in the bottom right, tied for worst on a defensive scale.

So all that to me is, look, he's super young and he clearly has tantalizing talent / potential, but he's not my type of player. He's an elite albeit turnover-prone playmaker but he's a chucker who doesn't play defense and his best skill is drawing annoying foul calls. The sky's the limit for him but right now I don't enjoy watching him play.

[Roy H.]

If I'm being honest, I'm not a big fan of Trae Young -- I don't really like his game.

Interesting.  I thought that Trae Young was one of the biggest steals in the draft.  This is a kid who averaged 30/9 two years ago, and who just led his team to the conference finals.  His shooting percentages aren't spectacular, but he makes up for it by getting to the line.  I expect his shooting will improve, to the point where he's the heir apparent to James Harden.

What don't you like?  Is it that he's not enjoyable to watch, or that you don't think his play is effective?

I get all that, and I could be totally off on this kid because ultimately we are projecting out futures rather than where they are today. Trae did just lead his team to the ECF, but he did so shooting 41.8% from the field, launching 9 three pointers at 31.3% shooting, and not defending anyone. I'd personally argue the Hawks made it so far because of their holistic collection of talent (Trae, Bogdan, Hunter, Collins, Capela, Gallo, and a few undrafted players who are good) rather than just because of Trae. He's got one of the deepest rosters in the league. I mean, game 7 against the Sixers he went 5-23 from the field and 2-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers. They won. I'm not sure I would ascribe that to his performance versus an undrafted player went off for 27, Collins had 14 / 16 boards, Capela had 13, Gallo had 17 all on efficient shooting.

My beef with him is people salivate over his shooting (okay but not great -- 43%  and 34% for his career from the field and three, respectively, without improvement over time) and passing (which is definitely there but at the expense of a bunch of turnovers which rank him not-so-great in terms of overall efficiency). I think he basically is only so good because he found a loophole in how to draw fouls, and if teams figure out that loophole than he loses a big part of his game. Maybe he'll round out his game, maybe he won't -- we'll see.

And then defense - if you look at the RAPTOR 2x2 grid, he's literally the player in the bottom right, tied for worst on a defensive scale.

So all that to me is, look, he's super young and he clearly has tantalizing talent / potential, but he's not my type of player. He's an elite albeit turnover-prone playmaker but he's a chucker who doesn't play defense and his best skill is drawing annoying foul calls. The sky's the limit for him but right now I don't enjoy watching him play.

What are your thoughts on Kobe Bryant?

[Who]

And then defense - if you look at the RAPTOR 2x2 grid, he's literally the player in the bottom right, tied for worst on a defensive scale.

I had never heard of that before. I had heard of RAPTOR but not that grid. I looked it up. Looks good. An interesting way of displaying the info.

[nickagneta]

If I'm being honest, I'm not a big fan of Trae Young -- I don't really like his game.

Interesting.  I thought that Trae Young was one of the biggest steals in the draft.  This is a kid who averaged 30/9 two years ago, and who just led his team to the conference finals.  His shooting percentages aren't spectacular, but he makes up for it by getting to the line.  I expect his shooting will improve, to the point where he's the heir apparent to James Harden.

What don't you like?  Is it that he's not enjoyable to watch, or that you don't think his play is effective?

I get all that, and I could be totally off on this kid because ultimately we are projecting out futures rather than where they are today. Trae did just lead his team to the ECF, but he did so shooting 41.8% from the field, launching 9 three pointers at 31.3% shooting, and not defending anyone. I'd personally argue the Hawks made it so far because of their holistic collection of talent (Trae, Bogdan, Hunter, Collins, Capela, Gallo, and a few undrafted players who are good) rather than just because of Trae. He's got one of the deepest rosters in the league. I mean, game 7 against the Sixers he went 5-23 from the field and 2-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers. They won. I'm not sure I would ascribe that to his performance versus an undrafted player went off for 27, Collins had 14 / 16 boards, Capela had 13, Gallo had 17 all on efficient shooting.

My beef with him is people salivate over his shooting (okay but not great -- 43%  and 34% for his career from the field and three, respectively, without improvement over time) and passing (which is definitely there but at the expense of a bunch of turnovers which rank him not-so-great in terms of overall efficiency). I think he basically is only so good because he found a loophole in how to draw fouls, and if teams figure out that loophole than he loses a big part of his game. Maybe he'll round out his game, maybe he won't -- we'll see.

And then defense - if you look at the RAPTOR 2x2 grid, he's literally the player in the bottom right, tied for worst on a defensive scale.

So all that to me is, look, he's super young and he clearly has tantalizing talent / potential, but he's not my type of player. He's an elite albeit turnover-prone playmaker but he's a chucker who doesn't play defense and his best skill is drawing annoying foul calls. The sky's the limit for him but right now I don't enjoy watching him play.

This is my line of thinking as well. Not a Trae Young fan. I do think the Hawks went as far as they did more due to the rest of their roster than because of Trae.

[theswitch]

If I'm being honest, I'm not a big fan of Trae Young -- I don't really like his game.

Interesting.  I thought that Trae Young was one of the biggest steals in the draft.  This is a kid who averaged 30/9 two years ago, and who just led his team to the conference finals.  His shooting percentages aren't spectacular, but he makes up for it by getting to the line.  I expect his shooting will improve, to the point where he's the heir apparent to James Harden.

What don't you like?  Is it that he's not enjoyable to watch, or that you don't think his play is effective?

I get all that, and I could be totally off on this kid because ultimately we are projecting out futures rather than where they are today. Trae did just lead his team to the ECF, but he did so shooting 41.8% from the field, launching 9 three pointers at 31.3% shooting, and not defending anyone. I'd personally argue the Hawks made it so far because of their holistic collection of talent (Trae, Bogdan, Hunter, Collins, Capela, Gallo, and a few undrafted players who are good) rather than just because of Trae. He's got one of the deepest rosters in the league. I mean, game 7 against the Sixers he went 5-23 from the field and 2-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers. They won. I'm not sure I would ascribe that to his performance versus an undrafted player went off for 27, Collins had 14 / 16 boards, Capela had 13, Gallo had 17 all on efficient shooting.

My beef with him is people salivate over his shooting (okay but not great -- 43%  and 34% for his career from the field and three, respectively, without improvement over time) and passing (which is definitely there but at the expense of a bunch of turnovers which rank him not-so-great in terms of overall efficiency). I think he basically is only so good because he found a loophole in how to draw fouls, and if teams figure out that loophole than he loses a big part of his game. Maybe he'll round out his game, maybe he won't -- we'll see.

And then defense - if you look at the RAPTOR 2x2 grid, he's literally the player in the bottom right, tied for worst on a defensive scale.

So all that to me is, look, he's super young and he clearly has tantalizing talent / potential, but he's not my type of player. He's an elite albeit turnover-prone playmaker but he's a chucker who doesn't play defense and his best skill is drawing annoying foul calls. The sky's the limit for him but right now I don't enjoy watching him play.

What are your thoughts on Kobe Bryant?

Ha, that's a baiting question! Offensively Kobe was a much more dynamic pure scorer at three levels and Trae is more about playmaking, but the point is well-taken that they are both inefficient and turnover-prone, and that they may have been more of a product of the team's success. I'll still argue, and have to generally argue loudly given I live in California and am marrying someone from LA, that Kobe was a ballhog / chucker who wasn't an efficient player despite his amazing skillset. He also had an intangible that went all the way positive (leadership) to negative (isolating Shaq). I'd also take the stance that Kobe was defensively not comparable. Maybe some of them weren't deserved, but 12x All-Defense speaks for itself. I'm not sure there's a reasonable comparison between Trae and Kobe, at least right now.

[Roy H.]

If I'm being honest, I'm not a big fan of Trae Young -- I don't really like his game.

Interesting.  I thought that Trae Young was one of the biggest steals in the draft.  This is a kid who averaged 30/9 two years ago, and who just led his team to the conference finals.  His shooting percentages aren't spectacular, but he makes up for it by getting to the line.  I expect his shooting will improve, to the point where he's the heir apparent to James Harden.

What don't you like?  Is it that he's not enjoyable to watch, or that you don't think his play is effective?

I get all that, and I could be totally off on this kid because ultimately we are projecting out futures rather than where they are today. Trae did just lead his team to the ECF, but he did so shooting 41.8% from the field, launching 9 three pointers at 31.3% shooting, and not defending anyone. I'd personally argue the Hawks made it so far because of their holistic collection of talent (Trae, Bogdan, Hunter, Collins, Capela, Gallo, and a few undrafted players who are good) rather than just because of Trae. He's got one of the deepest rosters in the league. I mean, game 7 against the Sixers he went 5-23 from the field and 2-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers. They won. I'm not sure I would ascribe that to his performance versus an undrafted player went off for 27, Collins had 14 / 16 boards, Capela had 13, Gallo had 17 all on efficient shooting.

My beef with him is people salivate over his shooting (okay but not great -- 43%  and 34% for his career from the field and three, respectively, without improvement over time) and passing (which is definitely there but at the expense of a bunch of turnovers which rank him not-so-great in terms of overall efficiency). I think he basically is only so good because he found a loophole in how to draw fouls, and if teams figure out that loophole than he loses a big part of his game. Maybe he'll round out his game, maybe he won't -- we'll see.

And then defense - if you look at the RAPTOR 2x2 grid, he's literally the player in the bottom right, tied for worst on a defensive scale.

So all that to me is, look, he's super young and he clearly has tantalizing talent / potential, but he's not my type of player. He's an elite albeit turnover-prone playmaker but he's a chucker who doesn't play defense and his best skill is drawing annoying foul calls. The sky's the limit for him but right now I don't enjoy watching him play.

This is my line of thinking as well. Not a Trae Young fan. I do think the Hawks went as far as they did more due to the rest of their roster than because of Trae.

I think that you guys are crazy.  The Hawks were radically better with the Young in the game.  When he was hurt or sitting, the Hawks simply couldn’t hang with other squads.  When he was playing, their offensive — both scoring rate and efficiency — were wildly better.

I think that we are so driven by shooting efficiency that we sometimes lose track of the “checkers”.  I brought up Kobe, because the offense is similar.  Iverson was the same way.  As counterintuitive as it is, sometimes the best option is to give the ball to the best player on the court and let him make plays, even if they are seemingly low percentage.

I am without a doubt this blog’s biggest Jrue Holiday fan, but the Hawks don’t go nearly as far last year with Jrue in place of Trey, for instance.  Having a guy who can create plays and put a ton of pressure on a defense is invaluable.

[wdleehi]

Throwing my team out there.   The plan early on was best two players available then build around them.   Having near back to back picks allowed me to add two pieces at a time that fit.   For example I think Siakam works as a secondary type option well off a good passing big man (Sabonis)

I also figured there wasn't going to be a lot of options in hiding heavy minutes player on weaker offensive players so I looked for as many strong defenders as possible in my heavy minutes lineup.   


Last few picks have been about role types.  Someone who can defend multiple positions.  Someone who can come off the bench and get hot from deep.   

[nickagneta]

If I'm being honest, I'm not a big fan of Trae Young -- I don't really like his game.

Interesting.  I thought that Trae Young was one of the biggest steals in the draft.  This is a kid who averaged 30/9 two years ago, and who just led his team to the conference finals.  His shooting percentages aren't spectacular, but he makes up for it by getting to the line.  I expect his shooting will improve, to the point where he's the heir apparent to James Harden.

What don't you like?  Is it that he's not enjoyable to watch, or that you don't think his play is effective?

I get all that, and I could be totally off on this kid because ultimately we are projecting out futures rather than where they are today. Trae did just lead his team to the ECF, but he did so shooting 41.8% from the field, launching 9 three pointers at 31.3% shooting, and not defending anyone. I'd personally argue the Hawks made it so far because of their holistic collection of talent (Trae, Bogdan, Hunter, Collins, Capela, Gallo, and a few undrafted players who are good) rather than just because of Trae. He's got one of the deepest rosters in the league. I mean, game 7 against the Sixers he went 5-23 from the field and 2-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers. They won. I'm not sure I would ascribe that to his performance versus an undrafted player went off for 27, Collins had 14 / 16 boards, Capela had 13, Gallo had 17 all on efficient shooting.

My beef with him is people salivate over his shooting (okay but not great -- 43%  and 34% for his career from the field and three, respectively, without improvement over time) and passing (which is definitely there but at the expense of a bunch of turnovers which rank him not-so-great in terms of overall efficiency). I think he basically is only so good because he found a loophole in how to draw fouls, and if teams figure out that loophole than he loses a big part of his game. Maybe he'll round out his game, maybe he won't -- we'll see.

And then defense - if you look at the RAPTOR 2x2 grid, he's literally the player in the bottom right, tied for worst on a defensive scale.

So all that to me is, look, he's super young and he clearly has tantalizing talent / potential, but he's not my type of player. He's an elite albeit turnover-prone playmaker but he's a chucker who doesn't play defense and his best skill is drawing annoying foul calls. The sky's the limit for him but right now I don't enjoy watching him play.

This is my line of thinking as well. Not a Trae Young fan. I do think the Hawks went as far as they did more due to the rest of their roster than because of Trae.

I think that you guys are crazy.  The Hawks were radically better with the Young in the game.  When he was hurt or sitting, the Hawks simply couldn’t hang with other squads.  When he was playing, their offensive — both scoring rate and efficiency — were wildly better.

I think that we are so driven by shooting efficiency that we sometimes lose track of the “checkers”.  I brought up Kobe, because the offense is similar.  Iverson was the same way.  As counterintuitive as it is, sometimes the best option is to give the ball to the best player on the court and let him make plays, even if they are seemingly low percentage.

I am without a doubt this blog’s biggest Jrue Holiday fan, but the Hawks don’t go nearly as far last year with Jrue in place of Trey, for instance.  Having a guy who can create plays and put a ton of pressure on a defense is invaluable.

For me it's his defense and shooting. Roy, you hated Kemba's defense but Trae is a worse defender than Kemba, and I am not talking Charlotte Kemba but last year's Kemba. Trae is one of the worst defensive PGs in the league.

His shooting is well, well below average and his overall efficiency just got over average last year because he used that stop driving move that sent him to the line so much and he is an exceptional FT shooter. A move, BTW, that the NBA has told their refs to look at as a non basketball move that shouldn't be called a foul. I think he will be getting less fouls called for him next year because of that, which could return his overall offensive scoring efficiency to below average levels.

Kid is tough. He is a great distributor of the ball. A solid leader. But I don't like his game. It's very Allen Iverson like, and I hated that guy's game too.

[Roy H.]

Throwing my team out there.   The plan early on was best two players available then build around them.   Having near back to back picks allowed me to add two pieces at a time that fit.   For example I think Siakam works as a secondary type option well off a good passing big man (Sabonis)

I also figured there wasn't going to be a lot of options in hiding heavy minutes player on weaker offensive players so I looked for as many strong defenders as possible in my heavy minutes lineup.   


Last few picks have been about role types.  Someone who can defend multiple positions.  Someone who can come off the bench and get hot from deep.

I thought the teams picking 9th through 12th would struggle in this draft, simply because the NBA is so dependent upon stars.  I love Tatum, but I figured you'd end up with a foundation similar to the Celts current roster situation.  In other words, two really good players, but nobody who can carry a franchise, and not enough separation with your depth to make up the difference.

But, nope.  You've built perhaps the most balanced team here, which can go big or go small, can score and defend 1 through 5, and doesn't have any obvious weaknesses.

I mean, if there's a small quibble, it's the lack of veteran leadership.  The best you've got is maybe Paul George, and he's suspect.  (EDIT:  I overlooked Jae Crowder here.  He will bring a leadership edge.)  But, I'm a believer that leadership can come from the bench, so you've still got time to bring in an old head or two.

For where you started in the draft, I think that this is very close to the best team you could have put together, even with the benefit of hindsight.