I really don’t like this draft for where BOS will be picking

[NKY fan]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

Totally no extraneous variables like COVID and injuries impacting this team It's entirely the drafting that's got us to this point!

most of the first rounders we made should have been packaged and traded for solid vets or stars. .. but this is not how Danny operates.

You know trades can't just happen, right? It takes two consenting parties. Given Danny has recently traded future assets for guys like Kyrie, I think wariness is pretty understandable.

Also, do Ainge's first round picks, who have led us to numerous deep playoff runs, get any credit? Or do they only get the blame when we're in the midst of a weird anomaly year?

Nope. No credit for selecting the best player in two consecutive drafts at the #3 spot. It was obvious that Tatum and Brown were the best and should have been taken over Fultz, Ball, Josh Jackson, Kris Dunn, Dragan Bender and Marquese Chris.

Except it wasn't. And Danny made the right moves and even got a lottery pick out of Philly because Ainge rightfully didn't want Fultz so made the trade with Philly, a team that may have missed on more high draft picks than any other team in recent memory.

I think the original scope of discussion was picks outside top 10. Anyway people have different opinions. My opinion was that it is not obvious that Danny is an above average drafter while for some that is pretty obvious it is as simple as that

[NKY fan]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

Totally no extraneous variables like COVID and injuries impacting this team It's entirely the drafting that's got us to this point!

most of the first rounders we made should have been packaged and traded for solid vets or stars. .. but this is not how Danny operates.

You know trades can't just happen, right? It takes two consenting parties. Given Danny has recently traded future assets for guys like Kyrie, I think wariness is pretty understandable.

Also, do Ainge's first round picks, who have led us to numerous deep playoff runs, get any credit? Or do they only get the blame when we're in the midst of a weird anomaly year?

Nope. No credit for selecting the best player in two consecutive drafts at the #3 spot. It was obvious that Tatum and Brown were the best and should have been taken over Fultz, Ball, Josh Jackson, Kris Dunn, Dragan Bender and Marquese Chris.

Except it wasn't. And Danny made the right moves and even got a lottery pick out of Philly because Ainge rightfully didn't want Fultz so made the trade with Philly, a team that may have missed on more high draft picks than any other team in recent memory.

No credit for that! Fluked his way into those picks!

I am a tough grader 

[Somebody]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

To be fair we could always pull off another Rozier with #16 and actually keep him over self-proclaimed basketball geniuses this time around

[NKY fan]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

This is not logic. This is something, but it’s not logic. This is the drunk guy at the end of the bar after a Celtics blowout loss.

You have a fascinatingly arrogant argumentative profile. Honestly, it’s hard to even find reference points to argue here because almost everything you say is baseless. It’s like you’ve already won the argument if someone engages with you because your argument is based in non reality.

Danny Ainge is not the best drafter in the league. But he has made some very solid moves and had some really bad misses. You’re making this strange and obsessive matter of fact argument. I can’t figure out why it causes you so much pain, Though.

You must be a troll, right?

Ok I should have posted this earlier. I did a really quick back of the envelope ranking of Danny's draft picks in the first round but outside top 10 (or top 6). Each pick is ranked against itself and next 10 chosen players based on 3 advanced metrics. Data is as of yesterday so the newer years are still evolving.
I think the rankings are kinder to some draftees and tougher on others but on average it is cut and dry and fair.


so this looks to me like he is average not above average.

[liam]

The way the Celtics are going this could be a lotto pick. 

[gouki88]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

This is not logic. This is something, but it’s not logic. This is the drunk guy at the end of the bar after a Celtics blowout loss.

You have a fascinatingly arrogant argumentative profile. Honestly, it’s hard to even find reference points to argue here because almost everything you say is baseless. It’s like you’ve already won the argument if someone engages with you because your argument is based in non reality.

Danny Ainge is not the best drafter in the league. But he has made some very solid moves and had some really bad misses. You’re making this strange and obsessive matter of fact argument. I can’t figure out why it causes you so much pain, Though.

You must be a troll, right?

Ok I should have posted this earlier. I did a really quick back of the envelope ranking of Danny's draft picks in the first round but outside top 10 (or top 6). Each pick is ranked against itself and next 10 chosen players based on 3 advanced metrics. Data is as of yesterday so the newer years are still evolving.
I think the rankings are kinder to some draftees and tougher on others but on average it is cut and dry and fair.


so this looks to me like he is average not above average.

This sort of statistical analysis is so far from the be-all and end-all of it

[Roy H.]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

This is not logic. This is something, but it’s not logic. This is the drunk guy at the end of the bar after a Celtics blowout loss.

You have a fascinatingly arrogant argumentative profile. Honestly, it’s hard to even find reference points to argue here because almost everything you say is baseless. It’s like you’ve already won the argument if someone engages with you because your argument is based in non reality.

Danny Ainge is not the best drafter in the league. But he has made some very solid moves and had some really bad misses. You’re making this strange and obsessive matter of fact argument. I can’t figure out why it causes you so much pain, Though.

You must be a troll, right?

Ok I should have posted this earlier. I did a really quick back of the envelope ranking of Danny's draft picks in the first round but outside top 10 (or top 6). Each pick is ranked against itself and next 10 chosen players based on 3 advanced metrics. Data is as of yesterday so the newer years are still evolving.
I think the rankings are kinder to some draftees and tougher on others but on average it is cut and dry and fair.


so this looks to me like he is average not above average.

I’m curious, why’d you ignore Perk, Big Al, Delonte and Tony?  Was there a reason to start in 2005, other than to cook the numbers?

[NKY fan]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

This is not logic. This is something, but it’s not logic. This is the drunk guy at the end of the bar after a Celtics blowout loss.

You have a fascinatingly arrogant argumentative profile. Honestly, it’s hard to even find reference points to argue here because almost everything you say is baseless. It’s like you’ve already won the argument if someone engages with you because your argument is based in non reality.

Danny Ainge is not the best drafter in the league. But he has made some very solid moves and had some really bad misses. You’re making this strange and obsessive matter of fact argument. I can’t figure out why it causes you so much pain, Though.

You must be a troll, right?

Ok I should have posted this earlier. I did a really quick back of the envelope ranking of Danny's draft picks in the first round but outside top 10 (or top 6). Each pick is ranked against itself and next 10 chosen players based on 3 advanced metrics. Data is as of yesterday so the newer years are still evolving.
I think the rankings are kinder to some draftees and tougher on others but on average it is cut and dry and fair.


so this looks to me like he is average not above average.

This sort of statistical analysis is so far from the be-all and end-all of it

It is not. I didn't claim it is the right way of analyzing (though it makes sense to me) draft picking skills but it is better than fan bias and fan feelings about picks. Given that such fans invest a fair amount of time following celtics picks but not other teams picks their views can be distorted.

[NKY fan]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

This is not logic. This is something, but it’s not logic. This is the drunk guy at the end of the bar after a Celtics blowout loss.

You have a fascinatingly arrogant argumentative profile. Honestly, it’s hard to even find reference points to argue here because almost everything you say is baseless. It’s like you’ve already won the argument if someone engages with you because your argument is based in non reality.

Danny Ainge is not the best drafter in the league. But he has made some very solid moves and had some really bad misses. You’re making this strange and obsessive matter of fact argument. I can’t figure out why it causes you so much pain, Though.

You must be a troll, right?

Ok I should have posted this earlier. I did a really quick back of the envelope ranking of Danny's draft picks in the first round but outside top 10 (or top 6). Each pick is ranked against itself and next 10 chosen players based on 3 advanced metrics. Data is as of yesterday so the newer years are still evolving.
I think the rankings are kinder to some draftees and tougher on others but on average it is cut and dry and fair.


so this looks to me like he is average not above average.

I’m curious, why’d you ignore Perk, Big Al, Delonte and Tony?  Was there a reason to start in 2005, other than to cook the numbers?

I might have missed those. I can try and add back all of them going back to his first years. I was not really that familiar with his drafting during his early years. And the traded picks during those years may not have shown up as drafted by Danny in the database.
I think those 4 will rank higher than average especially Jeferson... but there are others like Markus Banks that will push the rankings down.
Now I see that I missed RJ hunter. Dann * there are so many old draft picks lol

[gouki88]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

This is not logic. This is something, but it’s not logic. This is the drunk guy at the end of the bar after a Celtics blowout loss.

You have a fascinatingly arrogant argumentative profile. Honestly, it’s hard to even find reference points to argue here because almost everything you say is baseless. It’s like you’ve already won the argument if someone engages with you because your argument is based in non reality.

Danny Ainge is not the best drafter in the league. But he has made some very solid moves and had some really bad misses. You’re making this strange and obsessive matter of fact argument. I can’t figure out why it causes you so much pain, Though.

You must be a troll, right?

Ok I should have posted this earlier. I did a really quick back of the envelope ranking of Danny's draft picks in the first round but outside top 10 (or top 6). Each pick is ranked against itself and next 10 chosen players based on 3 advanced metrics. Data is as of yesterday so the newer years are still evolving.
I think the rankings are kinder to some draftees and tougher on others but on average it is cut and dry and fair.


so this looks to me like he is average not above average.

I’m curious, why’d you ignore Perk, Big Al, Delonte and Tony?  Was there a reason to start in 2005, other than to cook the numbers?

I might have missed those. I can try and add back all of them going back to his first years. I was not really that familiar with his drafting during his early years. And the traded picks during those years may not have shown up as drafted by Danny in the database.

Not sure why Rondo would then.

I also think giving the same weight to Rondo's success as you would to the slightly below average play of Yabu is really foolish. One two run home-run like that outweighs a lot of groundouts

[NKY fan]

I don't like any draft for where the Cs will be picking in 2021, unless they keep losing a lot. I like Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

[/b]
please check other threads that deal with this exact topic. ainge has drafted well above the NBA average for getting players in that area of the draft.

Look over this list to learn more:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/draft.html

rozier
smart
sullinger
bradley
rondo (picked for them)
jefferson
west
allen
olynyk (for them)

langford & nesmith are too early to tell. some folks may include gerald green, but i am reluctant to do so myself since he took soooooo long to develop his game.

plus a number of acceptable players were taken by ainge in the second round.

When you average the above draftees with the 7-8 James Youngs he drafted it doesn’t look like he is an above average drafted in that range
And sully was picked for tanking purposes. Not sure where he contributed to a winning organization in a meaningful way

You make some weird arguments from time to all the time, but this is a new one.  How was Sully, who was drafted with KG, Pierce, and Rondo still on the team, and Doc coaching, picked for tanking purposes?  Heck, when he picked, the Celtics still thought Ray would return as well.

fixed it for you.

I'd love to know who all these James Youngs are.  There's the original.  who else?  Yabu and Zizic were draft and stash players because he couldn't make roster room or trade the picks (which is bad asset management and a different issue entirely).  JJJ was a dud but was considered a very solid pick by most sources considering the place in the draft and who was left on the board.  Fab Melo was anticipated to be a horrible pick by pretty much everyone so there's 3 duds.   Romeo and Nesmith are too early to know what their talent level will be.

Right Sully was picked to compete now with the aging big three but ended up driving the tank post nets trade. I don’t see what’s so great about that pick.
Also my argument was that when you average his ok picks with the duds it’s not looking so great.

that's pure nonsense.

Sully's purpose was to compete and hopefully be either a building block or a valuable trade chip.  he was a good player, particularly where he was picked.  the problem was his lack of commitment to his conditioning.

your argument about Danny's draft record is still lacking any support.  Sully is not an example.  what other examples do you have other than the ones I offered for you?

You clearly love all his picks - no need to argue.

ok edit : you listed 5 duds above - JY,JJJ,FM, Yabu and Zizic ... here are 2 more - Gabe Pruit and JR Giddens - that makes 7 guys that can be argued  whether they are the worst players in their drafts.
In terms of drafting skill and GM acumen - only Rondo and Rozier are the picks where Danny outsmarted other GMs. For every other pick its either a big reach or players such as Sully and Bradley that fell to him and he was just hoping that the celtics staff can straighten up their deficiencies and red flags. Timelord has a chance to join Rondo and Rozier if he stays healthy and consistently impact winning from now on. So that is 3 out of 20+ picks (that are subject to this topic) where he did above average. How does that make for an above average drafting experience?

This is just plain wrong.

James Young: better than Mitch McGary, Jordan Adams, CJ Wilcox and Josh Huestis. That's just 1st round picks.
JaJuan Johnson: same level as Nolan Smith, Tyler Honeycutt (RIP), Trey Thompkins and Jordan Williams. All similar 20-40 range.
Fab Melo: same level as Royce White, a near-lotto pick.
Yabusele: same level as Wade Baldwin, Georgios Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson and Brice Johnson. All 1st round picks.
Zizic: better than all the guys listed above, including Yabu, and on a similar level to Damian Jones, Skal Labiss iere and Henry Ellenson.
Pruitt: better than Petteri Koponen, Morris Almond, Alando Tucker (all 1st round picks) as well as Marcus Williams, Nick Fazekas and Jemareo Davidson, all picked in the same range as him.
Giddens: same level as Joe Alexander, a top 10 pick, as well as Walter Sharpe, Nathan Jawai, Patrick Ewing Jr. and Sean Singletary.

I do love your efforts to try and discredit Ainge for taking risky picks as if they just fell into his lap. 2/3 of the league had passed on these guys. That does not make them not above average. If they don't count as above average picks because of some nonsensical reason then you can't then count it towards Ainge total record. The mental gymnastics are astounding.

Lol what. Nice effort. Appreciate you put together a list that didn’t prove anything... Plain wrong is the phrase - “can be argued they are the worst” - there is a nuance to it meaning it can be argued - like it’s not cut and dry.
You’re saying that what I’m saying is plain wrong - what I’m arguing overall is that it’s not obvious that Ainge is above average drafter - where is here my effort to discredit him as I’m pointing his numerous bad misses?
But if you really insist I can admit that I’m wrong and Ainge is the greatest drafter in the history of drafting of players if not even much much earlier than that

You have no place taking any moral high-ground if you continue to move the goalposts and use such ludicrous straw-man fallacies.

None of those players can be argued to be the worst in their draft, as there are numerous players in every draft who never even play. Relative to their draft position these guys are, for the most part, not even the worst pick, and yet they represent Ainge's glaring weaknesses as a drafter.
Yet his wins in drafting in the low range, like Rondo, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Big Al Jefferson, TimeLord, Delonte West and more is about as good as any.
The only teams who have done more with less are those who have found MVP calibre guys in that range - San Antonio, Denver and Milwaukee.
That's not even getting into his recent wins at the top of the draft in Tatum and Brown. If we had gone with the consensus we'd have Markelle Fultz and Kris Dunn instead.

1) Our team is mostly comprised of Dany's draftees.
2) Every team is mostly comprised of drafted players.
3) We have an above average coach.
4) We are middle of the pack in the weaker conference.
5) Danny Ainge is an above average drafter.

1, 2 and 4 are obviously correct statements
3 can be debated
5 is most likely wrong based on 1,2, 4 and or 3

This is not logic. This is something, but it’s not logic. This is the drunk guy at the end of the bar after a Celtics blowout loss.

You have a fascinatingly arrogant argumentative profile. Honestly, it’s hard to even find reference points to argue here because almost everything you say is baseless. It’s like you’ve already won the argument if someone engages with you because your argument is based in non reality.

Danny Ainge is not the best drafter in the league. But he has made some very solid moves and had some really bad misses. You’re making this strange and obsessive matter of fact argument. I can’t figure out why it causes you so much pain, Though.

You must be a troll, right?

Ok I should have posted this earlier. I did a really quick back of the envelope ranking of Danny's draft picks in the first round but outside top 10 (or top 6). Each pick is ranked against itself and next 10 chosen players based on 3 advanced metrics. Data is as of yesterday so the newer years are still evolving.
I think the rankings are kinder to some draftees and tougher on others but on average it is cut and dry and fair.


so this looks to me like he is average not above average.

I’m curious, why’d you ignore Perk, Big Al, Delonte and Tony?  Was there a reason to start in 2005, other than to cook the numbers?

I might have missed those. I can try and add back all of them going back to his first years. I was not really that familiar with his drafting during his early years. And the traded picks during those years may not have shown up as drafted by Danny in the database.

Not sure why Rondo would then.

I also think giving the same weight to Rondo's success as you would to the slightly below average play of Yabu is really foolish. One two run home-run like that outweighs a lot of groundouts

ok regardless ... lets assume that we add all the drafted players (heavily skewed by his earlier success) and his average ends up at around 3.5-4.0 - this will still mean that on average he picked the 3rd-4th best player within a small group of players that he had the best draft picking position for. Would this mean he is above average or average in drafting? .. Of course you can't say for sure ... which comes to my original point that it is not obvious that he is above average drafter.

[hwangjini_1]

NK,THIS was your original point, I am copying it from your post...

Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

You shifted it in later posts to something different.

Next, you stated ainge picked the third or fourth best player when his average draft position was around 20th. The bracket you gave was #6 pick through #25, a range of 20. To pick the third or fourth best player from that range is above average.

[NKY fan]

NK,THIS was your original point, I am copying it from your post...

Ainge in the Top 5 picks or the bottom 5 picks of the 1st round. The rest has been not so good.

You shifted it in later posts to something different.

Next, you stated ainge picked the third or fourth best player when his average draft position was around 20th. The bracket you gave was #6 pick through #25, a range of 20. To pick the third or fourth best player from that range is above average.

3/4 best in the 20-30 range not 6-25. In reality the picks that were ranked did not go higher than 13 and only 2 are lower than 25.

[NKY fan]

I’m curious, why’d you ignore Perk, Big Al, Delonte and Tony?  Was there a reason to start in 2005, other than to cook the numbers?

Roy,
it took me a minute to track down all draft day trades and such but I think I compiled all picks save for Tatum, Brown and Smart.


It looks like on average Ainge is picking the 5th best player (out of a small group of 11ish "consensus?") when he has the best draft position outside top 10.
Also the rankings are tough on Rozier (he may surpass D. Wright and L. Nance Jr.) and hopefully Romeo moves up significantly from where he is now.
I have a ton of other observations but I don't have time to type them all. I have been guilty of providing opinion without adding context or support... so that irritates some people and I have to be better at that.

[todd_days_41]

I think Ainge has a been a good drafter overall, but had some pretty serious misses in the "teens" for whatever reason (as I've pointed out a few times). So far, Nesmith and Langford are not exactly bucking this trend, sadly.

But to Ainge draft defenders, I'd just repost that no player Ainge has ever drafted outside then Top 3 has ever made an All-Star game, other than Rondo (back in the ice age). And he's had a lot of cracks at it.

In a league where championships are won by stars, finding gems is critical -- especially for stronger franchises that don't live at the top of the lottery over and over again. Read: Utah, San Antonio, Toronto, Denver, Milwaukee, etc. Ainge just hasn't been able to do it, which is a little surprising considering how savvy he is elsewhere.

So, the trade that landed them the picks to select Brown, then Tatum? Gem. Selecting Brown? Gem. Trading down and taking Tatum? Gem. But Ainge just hasn't been able to find those kinds of hidden ones later in the draft.