Poll: Which conference is deeper

[celticsclay]

Interesting stats based read: https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/264966/No-Longer-The-Leastern-Conference

I'm not seeing a lot of stats here, but the author gets points for " their rankings are in a mess, with many of their long-contending franchises gnarly purgatorial crossroads with no visible escape."

I was referring to the points differential which is usually something that aligns with teams records over time. However, I generally agree with this as the main point of this whole discussion:

The Lakers are a hodgepodge of accomplished veterans who may not combine full effort and total strategic self-awareness until April. The Los Angeles Clippers are a middling group anchored by Paul George, badly missing Kawhi Leonard. The Denver Nuggets seem to be in the throes of a dark injury curse. The Dallas Mavericks aren’t good enough to do anything but live and die with Luka Doncic, who is out of shape and playing sub-elite ball. The Memphis Grizzlies, currently streaking, are young and unproven, and unlikely to get consistent. The Portland Trail Blazers are in the middle of a franchise upheaval. The Spurs are way past their days of relevance.

In the past few years I really felt the Lakers, Clippers, Dallas or Nuggets could easily make the WCF (and some of these teams did). They all seem way more flawed than they have the last few years for a variety of reasons (with some teams like the Nuggets just being 100% decimated by injuries which we have not seen in the east outside of the 76ers being decimated by Covid for a stretch). We can arbitrarily yell "there are more good teams that could win a series in the west" but that seems just like screaming an opinion as fact. For these 4 teams that were legit contenders, they are not currently "good" and I don't see many avenues for improvement for them unless the Lakers find a team to get Westbrook off their hand for a decent 3 and d guy or Leonard comes out of nowhere, gets healthy and starts playing as a force. The nuggets seem to have zero way of becoming a title threat this season with MJP out for the full year and local reporters here saying it is very possible Murray will miss the entire season.
Nuggets are clearly a contender that

[celticsclay]

Interesting stats based read: https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/264966/No-Longer-The-Leastern-Conference

Very hyperbolic.  I mean in 15-16, the East had a 42-40 team miss the playoffs while that same record was the 6th and 7th seeded teams in the West.  The 10th place team that year in the East was 41-41, which was the same record as the 8th place team in the West.  Of course that was the 73 win Warriors season and the Spurs weren't far behind at 67 wins.  And the 10 win Sixers were in the East, so perhaps something similar to this year where the really good teams at the top deflated some of the middle and the really bad team in the other conference inflated the wins some in the middle as well.

So you didn’t really answer this before. You think all these National
NBA analysts, 90% of the forum, Steve nash and most
Advanced statistics are all wrong? You are the one person that “gets it.” I’m realizing some of your stuff is parody, so I got to give you credit for that.

The West has won more head to head, how is that possible if the East is the deeper conference?

I mean this was you a month ago

Also while it is early 26 games is actually a significant portion of the East versus west matchups for the year. It would seem
Unlikely the west will finish above .500 against the East this year and that is really the only objective standard we can use.

and this

It’s such a “weird” position to think the conference with a significant winning record is better. Lol. You crack me up man.

So taking your own argument because the West has a better record right now.  The West is therefore better right now.  And if you are better it is hard to see how you aren't deeper.

Yes I still think it was funny you called my position weird. It’s a position held by just about every one that covers the sport. I do still think head to head is a good metric and I do still think the East will be ahead in this by the end of season as they have less tanking teams (and as oracle noted have had a very substantial less amount of home games). Unlike you I will hold myself accountable in that if I am wrong. Unlike you I try to be consistent in my discussion. You have waffled from your arbitrary interconference matchups where you picked the winner (thankful you never brought that up again after you got laughed off the thread), to the two worst teams being in the east, to the top team teams in the west lowering the other teams records. I have answered your question so please answer mine in good faith. Why do you think all of these nba analysts, nba coaches, 90% of the forum and advanced statistics favor the East being deeper. Is it a conspiracy? Voter fraud? We are all idiots?

And please man, just respond to that question without any other nonsense because I have given you sincere responses and I think it is fair to ask someone to explain why they are in a 10% viewpoint on a forum. (This is a very unusual ratio on this forum).

I've been absolutely consistent.  The West has more good teams and is therefore the better and deeper conference.  That has been my argument the entire team.  I have never waffled on that or been inconsistent in any manner.   The West has more teams reasonably capable of winning at least 1 playoff series.  The West has more teams reasonably capable of reaching and winning the finals.  The West has more of the better players in the sport (according to ESPN 9 of the top 15 players are in the west and they didn't have Kawhi ranked at all so he isn't one of them - which correlates to 9 of the 15 reigning all league players being in the west - though that does include Kawhi but also Irving). 

Just because the East is better than it has been and has more mediocrity, does not make it deep.  Mediocrity is not depth.  Maybe the crap doesn't smell quite as bad as their counterparts in the west, but crap is still crap, and crap does not make a conference deep.

Reporters have their biases and want to sell stories and narratives.  It is an easy story to tell, look at the records, the East is deep this year, but if you actually look behind the numbers they are just hollow.  The West is still the better and deeper conference, because the West has more good teams and good teams, not mediocre ones, is what makes a conference deep.  I mean 9 of the 14 ACC football teams were at least .500 in the conference, while only 7 of the Big 10's 14 or 8 of the SEC's 14 were .500 or better in conference.  The ACC is not a deeper conference than the Big 10 or SEC though because the ACC is filled with garbage while the SEC and Big 10 were not.

Well this is certainly a rambling response. We now have more of the top 15 players according to ESPN as a metric. So I'll that to the evolving reasoning list. But lets focus on the only thing that matters, where you just keep stating hundreds of times the West has more good teams, but never clarify who those teams are or why you think they are good.

Utah
Golden State
Suns

Those are all clearly good teams. Beyond that, who is not mediocre like you say the east is?
The 4th place team is Memphis. Is this somehow a contender in your eye? I have not heard anyone mention them as such, but that would be a provocative opinion if you hold it.
The 5th best team right now is the Clippers. They have a 1.3 positive point differential, their second best player is Reggie Jackson and their third best is, who Zubac? As they currently stand by most metrics this is a very average middling team.
The 6th best team record wise is the Lakers. They have a negative point differential and are .500 despite playing 16 home games and 10 road games so far. Is a team that is getting outscored on the season and .500 a good team? I get you like Lebron a lot, but this team has been the definition of mediocre so far.
7th best team record wise is the Mavericks. They also have a negative point differential for the year, have lost 7 of the last 10 and desperately need to pull the plug on Porzginas for someone else alongside Luka. Is this somehow a good team?
8th best team is my local Denver Nuggets. As someone that has watched a number of their games both on TV and in person  I am kind of just going to have to chuckle if you think they are a good team down Murray and MJP. Jokic is absolutely a joy to watch but no team in the league can remain a title threat losing their second and third best player.

So yea.. I mean you keep screaming your opinion that their are more "good teams" in the west, but who are the actual teams. This is the kind of debate I would like to have with reasoning and explaining the viewpoint. It is a lot more interesting to me, and probably most people,  then the skip bayless style meandering stuff jumping from top 15 players in the NBA according to ESPN and NCAA football in conference records. (I'll also add you still didn't explain why you think the 85% of the board voted for the east unless you are saying we all have agendas like reporters and these agendas hold even in a blind vote). 

[Moranis]

I imagine some of the board voted that way because it is easier to explain why Boston is .500 and the 10th seed, rather than what to come to the conclusion that Boston just isn't very good.

If things broke right, I think there are only 5 teams that could reasonably win the title this year: Milwaukee, Brooklyn, Golden State, Phoenix, and the Lakers (I've said all year I thought the Bucks would repeat and that still holds firm).  The Lakers are obviously a mess right now, but they still have 2 top 10 players in the sport (or at least what should be two top 10 players in the sport) and that generally matters in the post-season especially when one of them is the greatest player in NBA history. 

The next tier is basically Utah and Philadelphia (and if they get the Simmons figured out, they could jump up and make it 6 teams because Embiid has the potential to take over games).  Then I'd put Miami all alone (they have a top 15 guy and very solid depth around him).  After that I'd trust the reigning MVP's team (Denver) or a guy many believe will retire as one of the greatest players ever (i.e. Luka and Dallas) over teams like the Bulls, Wizards, and even the Celtics (who are a flawed injury riddled mess right now).  Given the Hawks' run last year, I have some faith in them, but I don't think they are really any better than Denver or Dallas (maybe a bit more depth, but not as good a player at the top).  And I know MPJ isn't coming back and Murray might not either, but even without them they have the reigning MVP in his prime, solid role players like Gordon, Barton, Morris, Green.  Unless you have no faith in Jokic, I don't see how you could reasonably think that team is worse than the Wizards (as an example).

The criticism of the Grizzlies is fair (i.e. young and inconsistent), but the Grizzlies have had far more success (i.e. making the playoffs last year) than teams like the Cavs and Hornets, where the young and inconsistent would also absolutely apply.  The benefit of the doubt is only given to the teams in the East and not the teams in the West, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  I'd trust Paul George and the Clippers (even without Leonard) over those teams because Paul George has been there and done that and is a top 15 player in the sport in his prime.  They won't win a title without Leonard, but Paul George led a similar team to several playoff victories, including clinching the Jazz series and then 2 against the Suns, without Leonard.  I can't see the Cavs, Wizards, Knicks, or Hornets doing something like that. 

The East has a lot of decent regular season teams (the Bulls for example i.e. a team with a lot of solid role player type players), but they don't have a lot of teams I'd trust in the playoffs because they don't have the top tier talent that by and large lead teams to playoff success.  Top end talent matters and it matters a lot in the playoffs.  It always has and it always will.  That is why it is actually important to note where the best players in the world are, because their teams are going to be the ones that are winning games when it matters. 

[celticsclay]

I imagine some of the board voted that way because it is easier to explain why Boston is .500 and the 10th seed, rather than what to come to the conclusion that Boston just isn't very good.

If things broke right, I think there are only 5 teams that could reasonably win the title this year: Milwaukee, Brooklyn, Golden State, Phoenix, and the Lakers (I've said all year I thought the Bucks would repeat and that still holds firm).  The Lakers are obviously a mess right now, but they still have 2 top 10 players in the sport (or at least what should be two top 10 players in the sport) and that generally matters in the post-season especially when one of them is the greatest player in NBA history. 

The next tier is basically Utah and Philadelphia (and if they get the Simmons figured out, they could jump up and make it 6 teams because Embiid has the potential to take over games).  Then I'd put Miami all alone (they have a top 15 guy and very solid depth around him).  After that I'd trust the reigning MVP's team (Denver) or a guy many believe will retire as one of the greatest players ever (i.e. Luka and Dallas) over teams like the Bulls, Wizards, and even the Celtics (who are a flawed injury riddled mess right now).  Given the Hawks' run last year, I have some faith in them, but I don't think they are really any better than Denver or Dallas (maybe a bit more depth, but not as good a player at the top).  And I know MPJ isn't coming back and Murray might not either, but even without them they have the reigning MVP in his prime, solid role players like Gordon, Barton, Morris, Green.  Unless you have no faith in Jokic, I don't see how you could reasonably think that team is worse than the Wizards (as an example).

The criticism of the Grizzlies is fair (i.e. young and inconsistent), but the Grizzlies have had far more success (i.e. making the playoffs last year) than teams like the Cavs and Hornets, where the young and inconsistent would also absolutely apply.  The benefit of the doubt is only given to the teams in the East and not the teams in the West, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  I'd trust Paul George and the Clippers (even without Leonard) over those teams because Paul George has been there and done that and is a top 15 player in the sport in his prime.  They won't win a title without Leonard, but Paul George led a similar team to several playoff victories, including clinching the Jazz series and then 2 against the Suns, without Leonard.  I can't see the Cavs, Wizards, Knicks, or Hornets doing something like that. 

The East has a lot of decent regular season teams (the Bulls for example i.e. a team with a lot of solid role player type players), but they don't have a lot of teams I'd trust in the playoffs because they don't have the top tier talent that by and large lead teams to playoff success.  Top end talent matters and it matters a lot in the playoffs.  It always has and it always will.  That is why it is actually important to note where the best players in the world are, because their teams are going to be the ones that are winning games when it matters.

I appreciate you explaining your reasoning. So tp for that. I disagree people are voting for the Celtics to make excuses for them. This board doesn’t really operate like that (and I feel you know this). Everyone is pretty disgusted with the team and we have numerous blow it up trade proposals every day here along with ime sucks and should be fired posts. I haven’t really seen a single person say we are a legit championship team right now. It’s pretty stereotypical negative pessimistic northeast fandom.

As for the your viewpoints of teams, I think the clippers and bulls is where you are the most off. I get the bulls don’t have much playoff experience, but the clippers as a team the last few years have choked massively and have only slowly lost talent/aged with their role players the last few years. Lavine is absolutely a star and has a game that should translate to the playoffs. He is not as good as George because he is not as good on defense. But ball demar and vucevic are all better players than Reggie Jackson. It seems very strange to me to give the benefit of the doubt to the clippers with their recent and franchise history over the bulls based on what we have seen more than a quarter of the way into the season.

BTW: Demar is averaging 26pts, 5 rebounds 4 assists on 49% shooting
Lavine 26, 5 and 4 also on 49% shooting.

Both are probably locks for the all-star team. On what planet do we call these guys role players? We could sure use some role players like that on the celtics while winning 65% of our games lol.

[Moranis]

I watched DeRozan for years lead a better and deeper team than the Bulls are this year to great regular season success only to watch them flame out in the playoffs because he isn't good enough. LaVine has never even made the playoffs and Ball is an ok but unspectacular player. We see teams like this every year that do well in the regular season because they have good depth, but flame out in the post season when rotations shorten and the stars play more minutes.  The Bulls could certainly win a playoff series, but I'd be absolute stunned if they beat Milwaukee or Brooklyn, shocked if they beat the Sixers, and surprised if they beat Miami.  Frankly, I'd pick the Celtics over them as Boston imo has the 2 best players in that series (Tatum is certainly the best and I'd argue Brown was 2nd) and teams with the 2 best players in a series almost never lose them.  Top end talent wins post season series.  It always has and it always will and Chicago lacks top end talent. 

[celticsclay]

I watched DeRozan for years lead a better and deeper team than the Bulls are this year to great regular season success only to watch them flame out in the playoffs because he isn't good enough. LaVine has never even made the playoffs and Ball is an ok but unspectacular player. We see teams like this every year that do well in the regular season because they have good depth, but flame out in the post season when rotations shorten and the stars play more minutes.  The Bulls could certainly win a playoff series, but I'd be absolute stunned if they beat Milwaukee or Brooklyn, shocked if they beat the Sixers, and surprised if they beat Miami.  Frankly, I'd pick the Celtics over them as Boston imo has the 2 best players in that series (Tatum is certainly the best and I'd argue Brown was 2nd) and teams with the 2 best players in a series almost never lose them.  Top end talent wins post season series.  It always has and it always will and Chicago lacks top end talent.

In our decade of debates here I think this is the most positive statement I have seen you make about the Celtics. The bulls are a lot better than us right now, which is why I hope we make a trade. I am also surprised you think a team with vucevic and ball is somehow worse than what Toronto had (laughed a little that you suddenly understand what deeper means lol).You also mention demars team like he wasn’t losing to your hero Lebron at peak powers. They probably would have made the finals without Lebron in their path every year. Anyways hope you are right about the Celtics beating the bulls l. I really like their roster. As we have seen with LA players like Caruso are pretty valuable

[Moranis]

I watched DeRozan for years lead a better and deeper team than the Bulls are this year to great regular season success only to watch them flame out in the playoffs because he isn't good enough. LaVine has never even made the playoffs and Ball is an ok but unspectacular player. We see teams like this every year that do well in the regular season because they have good depth, but flame out in the post season when rotations shorten and the stars play more minutes.  The Bulls could certainly win a playoff series, but I'd be absolute stunned if they beat Milwaukee or Brooklyn, shocked if they beat the Sixers, and surprised if they beat Miami.  Frankly, I'd pick the Celtics over them as Boston imo has the 2 best players in that series (Tatum is certainly the best and I'd argue Brown was 2nd) and teams with the 2 best players in a series almost never lose them.  Top end talent wins post season series.  It always has and it always will and Chicago lacks top end talent.

In our decade of debates here I think this is the most positive statement I have seen you make about the Celtics. The bulls are a lot better than us right now, which is why I hope we make a trade. I am also surprised you think a team with vucevic and ball is somehow worse than what Toronto had (laughed a little that you suddenly understand what deeper means lol).You also mention demars team like he wasn’t losing to your hero Lebron at peak powers. They probably would have made the finals without Lebron in their path every year. Anyways hope you are right about the Celtics beating the bulls l. I really like their roster. As we have seen with LA players like Caruso are pretty valuable

DeRozan's last season in Toronto they won 59 games and had Lowry, DeRozan, Anunoby, Ibaka, Jonas as the starting 5 with Wright, Siakam, VanVleet, Miles, Poeltl, and Powell.  I'd take that roster over the Bulls every day of the week.  It had a nice mix of vets and young players, was very deep, but quite simply just wasn't good enough because no one on that team was a top 25 player, and that matters so much that the hodgepodge that was the Cavs could blitz them off the court in 4 games.  I mean obviously Lebron was awesome then and Love was actually healthy, but Kyle Korver was the 3rd best player on that team.  The Raptors didn't stand a chance because they just didn't have anyone they could really rely on to close out close games.  You need that.

I've been as honest as to what the Celtics are as anyone on here.  The C's quite simply haven't been a real contender since Garnett got old.  It is a shame he got hurt in 09 because that shaved a year or two off what he should have been still MVP level play and Boston probably wins a title in at least 09 or 10 if he didn't (if not both) and still would have had a shot in 11 and possibly 12, but the knee injury accelerated KG's decline and brought about the end of contention a bit faster.  Boston hasn't been close to actual contention since because Boston hasn't had a player good enough at the top since then.  As I've been saying for years, I do think Tatum could ultimately reach that level, but Ainge failed the team the last 3 to 4 years by trying to win and build for the future at the same time rather than just picking a direction.  Ainge should have retired years ago, team would be better off if he had.

[Moranis]

Well Monday record check and the West holds a slight 3 win advantage on the East.  Each conference has 8 of the top 16 teams in it, the East does have 17, 18, and 19 though.

2 teams above .800 and 2 teams below .200 so far.  You generally don't even have 1 team that good or that bad, so that should even out some as the season wears on (the Warriors in 17 was that last > 80% win team and the Sixers in 16 was the last under .200 team).

[Moranis]

Well an interesting week with all of the covid, postponements, etc., but the West now has 10 more wins than the East.  Each conference has 8 of the top 16 teams, with the West holding 1, 2, 4, 6 (tie), 10, 11, 12 (tie), 15 (tie).  East does have 17 and two of the 3 teams tied at 18 along with 21.  So East is definitely stronger in the play-in portion of the conference.  East continues to have the 2 worst teams who are both still below .200.

[celticsclay]

Well an interesting week with all of the covid, postponements, etc., but the West now has 10 more wins than the East.  Each conference has 8 of the top 16 teams, with the West holding 1, 2, 4, 6 (tie), 10, 11, 12 (tie), 15 (tie).  East does have 17 and two of the 3 teams tied at 18 along with 21.  So East is definitely stronger in the play-in portion of the conference.  East continues to have the 2 worst teams who are both still below .200.

I think it extremely disingenuous to not mention that Charlotte, Boston, Bulls, Orlando, Philly, Cavs Nets have all been decimated by COVID this season and mostly in the last 3 weeks (5-8 players missing) while most of the West teams have had either zero cases or very limited impact. The East currently has 55 players in covid protocols compared to 25 for the west including stars like Young, Durant, Irving, Harden, Siakem Giannis, Lavine. The two best players out with covid in west are Ja Morant and Fox. I expect a little bit better updates from you. Do I think the West is a deeper conference that will pick up wins when

Bam
Butler
Harden
Giannis
Durant
Irving
Young
Lavine
Hayward
Mobley
Sexton
Middleton and others are out? Yea sure
(West is missing Davis, George, Doncic, Fox, Mccollum and Morant)

I am not sure if the COVID stuff will even out at some point, or the warm weather cities in Texas, California, Phoenix have more natural weather protection during the winter. If the West has a stretch like this I expect the east will return a few weeks of dominance.
 

 

[Moranis]

So we count guys like Sexton out for the year but don't count Murray, MPJ, Kawhi, Klay, Zion, etc. (Not to mention Booker missing 7 straight before the last one which didn't slow the Suns down at all) and I was the one being disingenuous by merely posting the records and standings exactly 1 week from the last update.

The East started out very well but for basically the last 2 months the West has been winning week after week in the head to head.  They continue to have the two best teams while the two worst teams continue to be in the East skewing the records for those reasons as well.

The West is, will continue to be, and always has been the better deeper conference because the West quite simply has more of the better players and more of the better teams

[celticsclay]

So we count guys like Sexton out for the year but don't count Murray, MPJ, Kawhi, Klay, Zion, etc. (Not to mention Booker missing 7 straight before the last one which didn't slow the Suns down at all) and I was the one being disingenuous by merely posting the records and standings exactly 1 week from the last update.

The East started out very well but for basically the last 2 months the West has been winning week after week in the head to head.  They continue to have the two best teams while the two worst teams continue to be in the East skewing the records for those reasons as well.

The West is, will continue to be, and always has been the better deeper conference because the West quite simply has more of the better players and more of the better teams

Yes Mo, not actually admitting that roughly 50 of the 70 players out and all the biggest stars (giannis, durant, harden,  young etc) are from the east was probably the MOST dishonest post you have made in this thread (and you have made some doozies) The raw numbers is not even mentioning the fact that specific teams like Charlotte, Bulls, Philly and the Nets have lost tons of games cause they were missing something like 6 out of their top 8 players and routinely playing 3-5 ten day contract guys. This has not happened to any west teams (Hence why they only have 20 some players in the entire conference in COVID protocols and the biggest names are Fox and Morant). These are all facts.

As for your absolutely insane injury nonsense, I have generally consistent and not included players that were out for the year. If you notice I also didn't mention Ben Simmons (and haven't mentioned Irving all year until he was announced as coming back). I was not really sure Sexton was out for the year, but he is probably the lowest caliber guy I listed and is pretty irrelevant. My one mistake was not including Klay because he will be back soon. MJP is not an all star or near star and I did not include tons of similar high level starters (like Barret) in the east that are currently out for COVID.

Guys like Simmons, Zion, Leonard, Murray that do not appear to be playing any time soon or at all this season are irrelevant and have always been irrelevant to the discussion. Not sure how many times you are going to whine about it but it is not making them come back and impact the west's depth any sooner.. Their status has not really changed since we started this discussion (or it has just become less likely they play in general with no or negative updates).

I really wish you were capable of having a reasonable discussion on this but you have proven time and time again incapable of being objective or fair. I, and probably nobody else, expected 75% of covid absences to hit the east. I never expected the Nets to be losing to the Magic backups cause they were missing their top 7 players or the 76ers to be missing Embid, Harris Thybulle and others and losing like 7 straight. I didn't expect the Bulls to be missing Lavine, Demar, Vucevic and others to all get covid.  As I have said in a lot of other threads separate of this topic, I really hope the league either pauses or the east gets healthier, cause frankly right now it is a joke to have 25 10 day contracts playing in the east every night (when the games are not postponed).

They have essentially turned 33% of the schedule each night into exhibition games. Unfortunately this is probably going to only get worst the next 2-3 weeks cause of holidays and indoor gatherings. However, once again I give you my word and promise if the Warriors have something similar to the Nets and lose Draymond, Steph, Wiggins, Poole, Looney, Moody and play ten day contract guys I won't come on here and crow like a fool if they lose 5 in a row to the east (I considered their rest loss against the Raptors completely irrelevant and didn't even mention it).

[Moranis]

Gordon Hayward hasn't even missed a game this year and you mentioned him.  The guy that hasn't stayed healthy in years, has actually not missed a game, and somehow he still ends up on your list.  Now LaMelo Ball did miss 6 games, the Hornets went 3-3 the exact same win percentage as when he has played (they were actually 2-1 against the west without him). 

Why include Mobley if you are only including all stars or near all stars?

Wiggins and Poole are in the protocols now.  No mention of them and they are still without Klay and Wiseman.  The Wolves have 3 starters and 2 rotation players in the protocols, no mention of them.  You mentioned Fox, but neglected to mention the 6 other Kings in the protocols (and Holmes is hurt), so they are decimated, yet just won their last game.  The Lakers already without Davis and Nunn, have 5 players in the protocols. 

DeRozan missed 3 games, but is back now.  LaVine missed the last 1, but Demar was back.  Vucevic got hurt in November, but he isn't in the protocols and never has been.  If a guy missing 3 games is a big deal (like Demar), I guess when Jokic went down for 4 straight in November we shouldn't count those 4 losses against Denver.  Or we should eliminate the 7 games Booker just missed from the Suns or Memphis' last 12 without Morant, or the last 5 from the Clippers because of George, or on and on.  If they play a game it counts.  I'm not determining which games count and which ones don't.  The records are what the records are.  And sure more of the covid missed games are from the eastern teams, but they also were playing other eastern teams the vast majority of those games.  So if anything, the Bulls and Nets having missed games, should improve the record of the other teams in the East and thus make the conference look even deeper, yet that hasn't happened.  I wonder why that is. 

[celticsclay]

Gordon Hayward hasn't even missed a game this year and you mentioned him.  The guy that hasn't stayed healthy in years, has actually not missed a game, and somehow he still ends up on your list.  Now LaMelo Ball did miss 6 games, the Hornets went 3-3 the exact same win percentage as when he has played (they were actually 2-1 against the west without him). 

Why include Mobley if you are only including all stars or near all stars?

Wiggins and Poole are in the protocols now.  No mention of them and they are still without Klay and Wiseman.  The Wolves have 3 starters and 2 rotation players in the protocols, no mention of them.  You mentioned Fox, but neglected to mention the 6 other Kings in the protocols (and Holmes is hurt), so they are decimated, yet just won their last game.  The Lakers already without Davis and Nunn, have 5 players in the protocols. 

DeRozan missed 3 games, but is back now.  LaVine missed the last 1, but Demar was back.  Vucevic got hurt in November, but he isn't in the protocols and never has been.  If a guy missing 3 games is a big deal (like Demar), I guess when Jokic went down for 4 straight in November we shouldn't count those 4 losses against Denver.  Or we should eliminate the 7 games Booker just missed from the Suns or Memphis' last 12 without Morant, or the last 5 from the Clippers because of George, or on and on.  If they play a game it counts.  I'm not determining which games count and which ones don't.  The records are what the records are.  And sure more of the covid missed games are from the eastern teams, but they also were playing other eastern teams the vast majority of those games.  So if anything, the Bulls and Nets having missed games, should improve the record of the other teams in the East and thus make the conference look even deeper, yet that hasn't happened.  I wonder why that is.

Gordon Hayward hasn't even missed a game this year and you mentioned him.  The guy that hasn't stayed healthy in years, has actually not missed a game, and somehow he still ends up on your list.  Now LaMelo Ball did miss 6 games, the Hornets went 3-3 the exact same win percentage as when he has played (they were actually 2-1 against the west without him). 

Why include Mobley if you are only including all stars or near all stars?

Wiggins and Poole are in the protocols now.  No mention of them and they are still without Klay and Wiseman.  The Wolves have 3 starters and 2 rotation players in the protocols, no mention of them.  You mentioned Fox, but neglected to mention the 6 other Kings in the protocols (and Holmes is hurt), so they are decimated, yet just won their last game.  The Lakers already without Davis and Nunn, have 5 players in the protocols. 

DeRozan missed 3 games, but is back now.  LaVine missed the last 1, but Demar was back.  Vucevic got hurt in November, but he isn't in the protocols and never has been.  If a guy missing 3 games is a big deal (like Demar), I guess when Jokic went down for 4 straight in November we shouldn't count those 4 losses against Denver.  Or we should eliminate the 7 games Booker just missed from the Suns or Memphis' last 12 without Morant, or the last 5 from the Clippers because of George, or on and on.  If they play a game it counts.  I'm not determining which games count and which ones don't.  The records are what the records are.  And sure more of the covid m

issed games are from the eastern teams, but they also were playing other eastern teams the vast majority of those games.  So if anything, the Bulls and Nets having missed games, should improve the record of the other teams in the East and thus make the conference look even deeper, yet that hasn't happened.  I wonder why that is.

Mo, I am not getting into nickel and diming which guys missed two or three games or not acting like the East has 2/3 of the covid list. Calling the Kings decimated is hilarious. They do lead the west with 6 covid guys (5 teams in the east have this many guys out or more). The "decimation" includes Fox (who I mentioned), Mitchell who is solid and plays 25mpg but very fringe rotation players like Len, some guy named Louis King, Terrance Davis and Bagley who has been out of the rotation the majority of the season. A team like the Nets is actually decimated. They are missing 7 of their top 8 guys and far and away their best 4 players. The hornets had a few games they were missing 6 out of their top 8 guys in minutes or something like that. The cavs are missing basically their entire front court. I think Allen will be an allstar this year and I think Mobley will make it next year. I am not sure why you have constantly poo-poo'd the cavs success this season, but a third of the way into the season they have completely transformed from the last few years and are probably the biggest surprise in the NBA. Mobley on defense is a huge part of that.

If Hayward did not miss a game, he came off the list I saw him on when I made the post. They are updating the covid protocols list every day sometimes repeatedly. However, overall here you have done the common tactic of trying to distract from the actual argument/point. The east has unequivocally been hit harder by Covid and with significantly more stars. This is not even close to debatable. As of today there are 55 east players on the covid list. (for the love of god don't whine if i miscounted and it is 54 or 56). The West has 25. Games are getting canceled because the east teams do not have enough active players. This is actually relevant and matters when you are comparing two conferences. Do you want to actually discuss that? Do you think this is something that will continue the rest of the winter because the east has a lot more cold cities? This is actually something unprecedented in sports and fairly interesting, and EXTREMELY relevant.

If you come back with more nitpicking irrelevant to 2/3's of the covid absences and much higher level talent being out in the east I am not going to respond to you. I know that is your main tactic when you don't want to actually acknowledge the point at hand but I am done entertaining it.

At a larger level, I just want the league to get healthy and have normal games with normal injuries and it is certainly not for the sake of this argument, but for enjoyable competitive basketball. I don't like watching what team gets hit the hardest by a virus we have been battling for a year and a half. It ruins debates like who has a better team (76ers or Boston) who is the top contender (Brooklyn or Golden State), who will make the all-star team (I have avoided my annual post on this because 11 of the guys that made the game last year are currently out) and yes what is the deeper conference. 

I looked out of curiosity, Hayward was on the list cause he currently has a back injury. Out tonight, unclear if he will be out long term but obviously a scary injury for a guy with his history. Hope he is back soon.

Oh and you were also just flat out wrong about Vucevic (https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-nikola-vucevic-to-make-return-covid-19-vs-rockets). He missed 7 games. Not sure how you whiffed on that one so bad.

What are you even doing here? Avoiding the main point of the discussion and inaccurately nitpicking sheesh.

[Moranis]

The main point of the discussion is the West is better and deeper than the East.  That was true at the beginning of the season and is true now.  And for someone that made such a point to hammer the record home, to completely ignore the record and the trends now is nothing but pure hypocrisy.  Don't be shouting scoreboard in the 1st quarter, then start ignoring it as the scoreboard starts to change.