Author Topic: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?  (Read 8259 times)

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Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2021, 10:04:04 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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Realistically, you’re probably either getting

Package A: salary filler, 1 polarizing prospect and a bunch of picks+swaps.

Package B: all-star on the last years of his prime and a pick or 2.
Why is that realistic? Young stars would generate better returns than that.
Agreed. Those aren't the likely outcomes of trading a young All-Star like Tatum.
have to agree.  C's wouldn't ship Tatum for anything less than an MVP candidate coming back.  might mean adding something to Tatum to make it work but he's too good and important to this team to deal for spare parts or taking risks on players rehabbing their games physically/mentally.
An MVP candidate? There's 2-3 in the league -- Tatum ain't even close to bein' one of 'em -- and none of them is getting traded for Tatum. He'd almost certainly be the best player in the deal, but I think the Cs would hold out for either another All-Star, or 2 really good young players & change.
didn't say Tatum was an MVP - mentioned they'd have to add something.  the point is, if Tatum were to be moved, that's the level of player you move him for.  you don't move your most valued team asset for lesser pieces.

I think you’re missing the point I’m calling out: why would a team with an MVP candidate trade him for Tatum? Tatum is highly unlikely to ever be that caliber of player.

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2021, 10:10:56 PM »

Online jambr380

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Realistically, you’re probably either getting

Package A: salary filler, 1 polarizing prospect and a bunch of picks+swaps.

Package B: all-star on the last years of his prime and a pick or 2.
Why is that realistic? Young stars would generate better returns than that.
Agreed. Those aren't the likely outcomes of trading a young All-Star like Tatum.
have to agree.  C's wouldn't ship Tatum for anything less than an MVP candidate coming back.  might mean adding something to Tatum to make it work but he's too good and important to this team to deal for spare parts or taking risks on players rehabbing their games physically/mentally.
An MVP candidate? There's 2-3 in the league -- Tatum ain't even close to bein' one of 'em -- and none of them is getting traded for Tatum. He'd almost certainly be the best player in the deal, but I think the Cs would hold out for either another All-Star, or 2 really good young players & change.
didn't say Tatum was an MVP - mentioned they'd have to add something.  the point is, if Tatum were to be moved, that's the level of player you move him for.  you don't move your most valued team asset for lesser pieces.

I think you’re missing the point I’m calling out: why would a team with an MVP candidate trade him for Tatum? Tatum is highly unlikely to ever be that caliber of player.

Well, an MVP got moved for what amounted to Kelly Olynyk and some late 1sts last season. And we wouldn't even entertain trading Brown, never mind Tatum.

And, yeah, obviously Tatum is infinitely more valuable around the league than Brown. That isn't even a discussion worth having.

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2021, 10:34:34 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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Realistically, you’re probably either getting

Package A: salary filler, 1 polarizing prospect and a bunch of picks+swaps.

Package B: all-star on the last years of his prime and a pick or 2.
Why is that realistic? Young stars would generate better returns than that.
Agreed. Those aren't the likely outcomes of trading a young All-Star like Tatum.
have to agree.  C's wouldn't ship Tatum for anything less than an MVP candidate coming back.  might mean adding something to Tatum to make it work but he's too good and important to this team to deal for spare parts or taking risks on players rehabbing their games physically/mentally.
An MVP candidate? There's 2-3 in the league -- Tatum ain't even close to bein' one of 'em -- and none of them is getting traded for Tatum. He'd almost certainly be the best player in the deal, but I think the Cs would hold out for either another All-Star, or 2 really good young players & change.
didn't say Tatum was an MVP - mentioned they'd have to add something.  the point is, if Tatum were to be moved, that's the level of player you move him for.  you don't move your most valued team asset for lesser pieces.

I think you’re missing the point I’m calling out: why would a team with an MVP candidate trade him for Tatum? Tatum is highly unlikely to ever be that caliber of player.

Well, an MVP got moved for what amounted to Kelly Olynyk and some late 1sts last season. And we wouldn't even entertain trading Brown, never mind Tatum.

And, yeah, obviously Tatum is infinitely more valuable around the league than Brown. That isn't even a discussion worth having.

Agree he’s more valuable. Infinitely? That’s hyperbolic.

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2021, 10:39:04 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Realistically, you’re probably either getting

Package A: salary filler, 1 polarizing prospect and a bunch of picks+swaps.

Package B: all-star on the last years of his prime and a pick or 2.
Why is that realistic? Young stars would generate better returns than that.
Agreed. Those aren't the likely outcomes of trading a young All-Star like Tatum.
have to agree.  C's wouldn't ship Tatum for anything less than an MVP candidate coming back.  might mean adding something to Tatum to make it work but he's too good and important to this team to deal for spare parts or taking risks on players rehabbing their games physically/mentally.
An MVP candidate? There's 2-3 in the league -- Tatum ain't even close to bein' one of 'em -- and none of them is getting traded for Tatum. He'd almost certainly be the best player in the deal, but I think the Cs would hold out for either another All-Star, or 2 really good young players & change.
didn't say Tatum was an MVP - mentioned they'd have to add something.  the point is, if Tatum were to be moved, that's the level of player you move him for.  you don't move your most valued team asset for lesser pieces.

I think you’re missing the point I’m calling out: why would a team with an MVP candidate trade him for Tatum? Tatum is highly unlikely to ever be that caliber of player.

Well, an MVP got moved for what amounted to Kelly Olynyk and some late 1sts last season. And we wouldn't even entertain trading Brown, never mind Tatum.

And, yeah, obviously Tatum is infinitely more valuable around the league than Brown. That isn't even a discussion worth having.

Agree he’s more valuable. Infinitely? That’s hyperbolic.
I think you're missing the point.  if they were going to trade Tatum, you do it to add a better player - like MVP level player.  you don't move your best player and most valuable asset for lesser pieces.  whether an MVP would be available in a trade is irrelevant because you're proposing the C's trade Tatum which is just as unlikely to happen. 

Can't offer a hypothetical situation that will not happen and say any other hypotheticals that won't happen can't be considered

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2021, 11:05:01 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Realistically, you’re probably either getting

Package A: salary filler, 1 polarizing prospect and a bunch of picks+swaps.

Package B: all-star on the last years of his prime and a pick or 2.
Why is that realistic? Young stars would generate better returns than that.
Agreed. Those aren't the likely outcomes of trading a young All-Star like Tatum.
have to agree.  C's wouldn't ship Tatum for anything less than an MVP candidate coming back.  might mean adding something to Tatum to make it work but he's too good and important to this team to deal for spare parts or taking risks on players rehabbing their games physically/mentally.
An MVP candidate? There's 2-3 in the league -- Tatum ain't even close to bein' one of 'em -- and none of them is getting traded for Tatum. He'd almost certainly be the best player in the deal, but I think the Cs would hold out for either another All-Star, or 2 really good young players & change.
didn't say Tatum was an MVP - mentioned they'd have to add something.  the point is, if Tatum were to be moved, that's the level of player you move him for.  you don't move your most valued team asset for lesser pieces.

I think you’re missing the point I’m calling out: why would a team with an MVP candidate trade him for Tatum? Tatum is highly unlikely to ever be that caliber of player.

Tatum and Luka are the two best players under 25 years of age, by a good margin. So how can you say that it’s highly unlikely for Jayson to ever be in the conversation for MVP. Makes no sense.
 
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2021, 10:26:18 AM »

Offline todd_days_41

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Realistically, you’re probably either getting

Package A: salary filler, 1 polarizing prospect and a bunch of picks+swaps.

Package B: all-star on the last years of his prime and a pick or 2.
Why is that realistic? Young stars would generate better returns than that.
Agreed. Those aren't the likely outcomes of trading a young All-Star like Tatum.
have to agree.  C's wouldn't ship Tatum for anything less than an MVP candidate coming back.  might mean adding something to Tatum to make it work but he's too good and important to this team to deal for spare parts or taking risks on players rehabbing their games physically/mentally.
An MVP candidate? There's 2-3 in the league -- Tatum ain't even close to bein' one of 'em -- and none of them is getting traded for Tatum. He'd almost certainly be the best player in the deal, but I think the Cs would hold out for either another All-Star, or 2 really good young players & change.
didn't say Tatum was an MVP - mentioned they'd have to add something.  the point is, if Tatum were to be moved, that's the level of player you move him for.  you don't move your most valued team asset for lesser pieces.

I think you’re missing the point I’m calling out: why would a team with an MVP candidate trade him for Tatum? Tatum is highly unlikely to ever be that caliber of player.

Tatum and Luka are the two best players under 25 years of age, by a good margin. So how can you say that it’s highly unlikely for Jayson to ever be in the conversation for MVP. Makes no sense.

Where in this response does it say anything about Luka Doncic? Attaching Tatum to him is your narrative, not mine.

You simply have a more optimistic view of Tatum than I do. Great player. But this is his 5th season in the league, and I don't see him morphing into an MVP (unless he lucks into one ala Derrick Rose.in 2011). Anthony Davis has zero MVPs. Kawhi Leonard has zero MVPs (which is lame, by the way). I don't see Tatum getting there, personally.

That I don't under no circumstances means that I don't really like and value the player, or that I think the Cs should or will trade him if they're not seriously compelled to. I wouldn't want to trade Davis or Leonard either. But guess what -- both of them have been, like lots of other star players. And you don't get a legit current MVP-type back when you trade one of those guys.

As clearly and repeatedly stated, I'm looking at hypothetical value -- not advocating for a trade, and certainly not a trade of Tatum.... not right now. But as one of this boards most frequent posters said this week:

"We’re a .500 team with no clear future."  ....despite having two young all-stars.

Push may come to shove on Brown and Tatum's ability to fit together and win games if progress isn't significant in the next 12-18 months. And i'm not naive enough to think what happened with the two guys I mentioned above couldn't happen with Tatum. So i'm interested in what others think his value is...., simple as that. I'm just as interested in the view of Brown's, frankly, but I agree Tatum's is higher -- particularly when you factor off-the-court.

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2021, 10:28:54 AM »

Offline todd_days_41

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Realistically, you’re probably either getting

Package A: salary filler, 1 polarizing prospect and a bunch of picks+swaps.

Package B: all-star on the last years of his prime and a pick or 2.
Why is that realistic? Young stars would generate better returns than that.
Agreed. Those aren't the likely outcomes of trading a young All-Star like Tatum.
have to agree.  C's wouldn't ship Tatum for anything less than an MVP candidate coming back.  might mean adding something to Tatum to make it work but he's too good and important to this team to deal for spare parts or taking risks on players rehabbing their games physically/mentally.
An MVP candidate? There's 2-3 in the league -- Tatum ain't even close to bein' one of 'em -- and none of them is getting traded for Tatum. He'd almost certainly be the best player in the deal, but I think the Cs would hold out for either another All-Star, or 2 really good young players & change.
didn't say Tatum was an MVP - mentioned they'd have to add something.  the point is, if Tatum were to be moved, that's the level of player you move him for.  you don't move your most valued team asset for lesser pieces.

I think you’re missing the point I’m calling out: why would a team with an MVP candidate trade him for Tatum? Tatum is highly unlikely to ever be that caliber of player.

Well, an MVP got moved for what amounted to Kelly Olynyk and some late 1sts last season. And we wouldn't even entertain trading Brown, never mind Tatum.

And, yeah, obviously Tatum is infinitely more valuable around the league than Brown. That isn't even a discussion worth having.

Agree he’s more valuable. Infinitely? That’s hyperbolic.
I think you're missing the point.  if they were going to trade Tatum, you do it to add a better player - like MVP level player.  you don't move your best player and most valuable asset for lesser pieces.  whether an MVP would be available in a trade is irrelevant because you're proposing the C's trade Tatum which is just as unlikely to happen. 

Can't offer a hypothetical situation that will not happen and say any other hypotheticals that won't happen can't be considered

That's your point, I get it. I just don't agree with what you're saying. See my post above if you have questions as to why.

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2021, 11:00:35 AM »

Offline wiley

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I personally enjoy hypotheticals...and am not sure why they cause some posters so much angst.

They are good for info gathering...learning opinions of others, etc.

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2021, 11:00:48 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Can’t trade Tatum..Brown, maybe if it’s a great haul
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2021, 11:10:47 AM »

Offline todd_days_41

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I personally enjoy hypotheticals...and am not sure why they cause some posters so much angst.

They are good for info gathering...learning opinions of others, etc.

Exactly.... what's the fear? we think Wyc is reading the blog all day and making decisions off of hack opinions like ours?  ;D ;D


Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2021, 11:12:28 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Realistically, you’re probably either getting

Package A: salary filler, 1 polarizing prospect and a bunch of picks+swaps.

Package B: all-star on the last years of his prime and a pick or 2.
Why is that realistic? Young stars would generate better returns than that.
Agreed. Those aren't the likely outcomes of trading a young All-Star like Tatum.
have to agree.  C's wouldn't ship Tatum for anything less than an MVP candidate coming back.  might mean adding something to Tatum to make it work but he's too good and important to this team to deal for spare parts or taking risks on players rehabbing their games physically/mentally.
An MVP candidate? There's 2-3 in the league -- Tatum ain't even close to bein' one of 'em -- and none of them is getting traded for Tatum. He'd almost certainly be the best player in the deal, but I think the Cs would hold out for either another All-Star, or 2 really good young players & change.
didn't say Tatum was an MVP - mentioned they'd have to add something.  the point is, if Tatum were to be moved, that's the level of player you move him for.  you don't move your most valued team asset for lesser pieces.

I think you’re missing the point I’m calling out: why would a team with an MVP candidate trade him for Tatum? Tatum is highly unlikely to ever be that caliber of player.

Well, an MVP got moved for what amounted to Kelly Olynyk and some late 1sts last season. And we wouldn't even entertain trading Brown, never mind Tatum.

And, yeah, obviously Tatum is infinitely more valuable around the league than Brown. That isn't even a discussion worth having.

Agree he’s more valuable. Infinitely? That’s hyperbolic.
I think you're missing the point.  if they were going to trade Tatum, you do it to add a better player - like MVP level player.  you don't move your best player and most valuable asset for lesser pieces.  whether an MVP would be available in a trade is irrelevant because you're proposing the C's trade Tatum which is just as unlikely to happen. 

Can't offer a hypothetical situation that will not happen and say any other hypotheticals that won't happen can't be considered

That's your point, I get it. I just don't agree with what you're saying. See my post above if you have questions as to why.
then your hypothetical doesn't work.  you would either trade Tatum for an equal player -- none of which I see out there -- or for lesser pieces which should not be considered.  Combine him if necessary to get a better player.  you're suggesting the C's do the same thing that you're saying teams with MVPs will not do which is accept a lesser player with other pieces for their better player.

I'll turn this around on you -- who do YOU think is Tatum's equivalent out there?  the thought I have on that type of deal is how is trading Tatum for an equal anything other than shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic?  are you aiming for an equal player that theoretically fits better with Jaylen?  I don't see a fit issue but an issue with the coach's offensive philosophy. 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 11:18:17 AM by slamtheking »

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2021, 11:59:30 AM »

Offline todd_days_41

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then your hypothetical doesn't work.  you would either trade Tatum for an equal player -- none of which I see out there -- or for lesser pieces which should not be considered.  Combine him if necessary to get a better player. 

Where did I say the Cs would get an equal player or better? These are your statements -- not mine. Every one I've posted has the Cs getting multiple assets in return.

you're suggesting the C's do the same thing that you're saying teams with MVPs will not do which is accept a lesser player with other pieces for their better player.

Teams don't often trade MVPs, and Tatum ain't one. Top 25 players? They do get traded, but rarely for a better player -- mostly because, well, there's only 25 of 'em, and they aren't all unhappy, a poor fit, an expiring contract flight risk, etc, at the same time. So teams have to maximize what they can get, in the hope / plan of taking two steps forward after they take one back. Tatum himself was the product of such a deal.

You're projecting your view onto mine. You think that if the Cs traded Tatum, they should add pieces to it to get a better player. I think that's unlikely. Like... Cs trade Tatum and Brown for Giannis? Or Tatum and Timelord for Doncic? That's more than hypothetical -- that's fantasy. You assume the Cs will be in a position of strength if hypothetical becomes reality. I don't.

The Cs don't need to or want to trade Tatum now. Someday, they may -- and you and I can't predict that timing. But it's not like it's all sunshine and roses at the Auerbach Center right now. So what's the best they can get if they do trade him (presumably based on some level of historical precedent)? That's what I'm asking.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 12:13:26 PM by todd_days_41 »

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2021, 12:47:36 PM »

Offline boscel33

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I had this same type of post typed up the other day, but deleted it for fear of some of the trade suggestions I might get.



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Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2021, 12:58:44 PM »

Online Atzar

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So what's the best they can get if they do trade him (presumably based on some level of historical precedent)? That's what I'm asking.

What historical comps are there to a trade of a young rising star with two ECF appearances under his belt already, locked up on a new long-term contract?  Kyrie coming to us seems fairly close... ish.  Kyrie was a better player with more on his resume than Tatum has right now, but with less years left on his deal - and he was already known as a malcontent, though he hadn't yet gotten as bad as he is today. 

We shipped out Isaiah Thomas, coming off of a year in which he dragged us to the ECF and placed 5th in MVP voting, but with a concerning hip injury... the 2018 Nets pick that was a premium asset with top-of-the-draft potential at the time, but wound up merely 8th... Jae Crowder, a solid roleplayer and culture-setter... and a throw-in project big man in Ante Zizic.  It's worth noting that the Cavs struck out on pretty much all of those pieces, but that has no bearing on the value they had at the time of the trade.

So where does that get us?  As I mentioned, Kyrie was a better, more accomplished player at the time of the trade, though Tatum's better contract and better apparent attitude do narrow the gap some.  That's about as close as I can remember.  Pieces like Tatum don't move very often.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 01:11:29 PM by Atzar »

Re: What if: Cs decided to trade Tatum?
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2021, 02:05:30 PM »

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I’ll play.
I would trade him to Memphis for Morant and Jaran Jackson