Half baked trade idea

[PAOBoston]

76ers are stuck right now. They are paying two guys max contracts who do not deserve them in Simmons and Harris. I’m not sure why Simmons value is right now but that team needs something of a reset. They desperately need a wing player who can score.

[gouki88]

In case you didn't just see that last play live, Simmons gave up an open dunk because he's a) too scared to take a shot, and b) concerned with his passing stats. He's too far in his own head.

We don't even have a coach hired yet. We'd need one with a sports psychology background to fix Simmons

I saw it. I also heard fans booing him earlier in the game.

The fanbase turned on him. He needs a fresh start. He's still one of the best defenders in the NBA and an elite passer. He's also great in the open court.

He’s no elite passer. He’s a really good passer on the fast break but is a mediocre passer in half-court sets, which is partly why he flounders so much in the postseason. He’s also yet to improve his offensive game in any way in 4 years - why would that change here?

[seancally]

Earlier in the year Philly maybe coulda flipped him for Harden. How does THAT look now??

[Kiorrik]

Lowest FT% in league playoff history.

Numbers on the decline instead of going up.

Disappears in 4th Q's in this series.

idk.

It's fine if it's 1 game. But this is defs a pattern.

[tazzmaniac]

Earlier in the year Philly maybe coulda flipped him for Harden. How does THAT look now??

That was the rumor.  If it took Simmons and a couple 1sts to get Harden, I would have been all in on that.  Harden/Embiid would be a filthy pairing to defend.  However considering Harden's injury it  doesn't look as bad as it could have. 

[tazzmaniac]

Lowest FT% in league playoff history.

Numbers on the decline instead of going up.

Disappears in 4th Q's in this series.

idk.

It's fine if it's 1 game. But this is defs a pattern.

Don't forget "Won't shoot jump shots". 

[Muzzy66]

I would do that deal all day every day without even a moment of hesitation.

Philly fans should love this trade. Smart is every bit a great defensive force in the backcourt as Simmons. And Smart can hit threes and won't hit free throws in the playoffs at a 35% rate.

And they get Thompson and picks.

Simmons is the singular most overrated player in the NBA. I want nada to do with Ben Simmons. He is as good at 24 years of age as he was at 18. There is definitely something wrong with that that should make GMs not want to trade for him.

Simmons is a 6'9" / 240 lbs guy who has the athleticism, ball handling and play making skills of a high level point guard.  He can play and defend all 5 positions on the court and do it at a high level.  He's made the All-Defensive 1st team two years in a row, and was a legitimate DPOTY candidate the past two seasons.  He's never shot below 55% from the field.  He's got an absolutely elite ability to get to the foul line (49% FT rate) which this team desperately need.  He's an outstanding playmaker with a pass-first mentality, which this team also could benefit from.  He's absolutely deadly in transition - combined with Tatum and Brown this could be the best transition team in the NBA. 

He's a high level rebounder.  He's a terribly outside shooters yes, but unlike Smart (who is also a horrible 3PT shooter) Simmons doesn't have a tendancy to throw up contested threes 4 seconds in to the shot clock.  His on/off impact stats as far as I have seen clearly indicate that he has an overwhelmingly positive impact on team success (+8 net rating, +2.7 BPM, +3.67 RPM).  His size at the PG spot creates massive mismatches all the time.

He's also a three time all-star, while I'm not sure Smart is even truly qualified to be a starter. 

Aside from outside shooting, Simmons is SO far superior to Smart in every imaginable area that trying to compare the two on anything close to an even level is almost laughable. 

Also you criticise Simmons for his lack of development - how much has Smart developed??  He's gone nowhere in like 6 years.  I thought last season he was finally taking a positive step, but then this year he proved that he's still the same old guy. 

Smart + Thompson for Simmons is IMHO an absolute no brainer.  I don't think there is a sane GM in the league who wouldn't do that . Even with the picks added I think that's a pretty easy call to make.  But If Brad makes this offer to Philly, I'm pretty sure they laugh in his face.

[Jvalin]

76ers: Tristin Thompson, Marcus Smart, Payton Prichard, 2 future 1st round picks (protected)

Celtics: Ben Simmons

If I were the Sixers, I'd find your proposal borderline offensive.

You guys massively underrate Simmons. Just because he's a terrible fit alongside Embiid, it doesn't necessarily mean he's a choker. Both Simmons and Embiid are at their best when playing close to the basket. Imagine Simmons playing off the ball in the half court, setting picks on the perimeter and then rolling hard to the basket. He'd transform into a dominant 2-way player. I mean, is Simmons all that different from Bam? Neither of them stretches the floor, yet nobody is complaining about Bam's shooting. Simmons is a more versatile/switchable defender. Bam is a better rim protector. Other than that, their games are very similar.

If we somehow put Simmons next to the Jays, I'd consider us the #1 favorites to come out of the East next season. Not to mention, he fits our time window. Simmons would make the C's a legit contending team for years to come. It goes without saying that I'd do the proposed trade in a heartbeat. In fact, I'd be willing to offer way more than that. For instance:

(click on image to enlarge)

[Rondo9]

I would do that deal all day every day without even a moment of hesitation.

Philly fans should love this trade. Smart is every bit a great defensive force in the backcourt as Simmons. And Smart can hit threes and won't hit free throws in the playoffs at a 35% rate.

And they get Thompson and picks.

Simmons is the singular most overrated player in the NBA. I want nada to do with Ben Simmons. He is as good at 24 years of age as he was at 18. There is definitely something wrong with that that should make GMs not want to trade for him.

Also you criticise Simmons for his lack of development - how much has Smart developed??  He's gone nowhere in like 6 years.  I thought last season he was finally taking a positive step, but then this year he proved that he's still the same old guy. 

Simmons won’t shoot and is a terrible free throw shooter. Even if he does have the talent I don’t think he’s a great fit next to Brown and Tatum because not only he needs the ball in his hands he has NO outside shot as demonstrated against the Hawks and the Celtics a few years ago. I much rather have Smart who is actually a better shooter from the field and on the free throw line. Smart has actually rose to the occasion rather than Simmons who whitered as seen when he passed up an open dunk to Thybulle who was swarmed. Bottom line is that Simmons may be an all star he’s at the lower end and needs a team that specifically fits his strengths and the Celtics aren’t it.

[Muzzy66]

In case you didn't just see that last play live, Simmons gave up an open dunk because he's a) too scared to take a shot, and b) concerned with his passing stats. He's too far in his own head.

We don't even have a coach hired yet. We'd need one with a sports psychology background to fix Simmons

I saw it. I also heard fans booing him earlier in the game.

The fanbase turned on him. He needs a fresh start. He's still one of the best defenders in the NBA and an elite passer. He's also great in the open court.

He'd get booed here as well. Appreciation of his game aside, we're giving way too much for him.

Why do you say that? 

We're talking about trading two fairly one-dimensional role players (Smart and TT) and a couple for late first rounders for a three-time all star. who's 24 years old.  Seems like pretty fair value to me, especially given that Smart and TT are both going to be expiring contracts next year and there's a reasonable chance that neither of them will be re-signed next season either way. 

Trade them for Simmons, or risk letting them both walk for nothing, with no cap space to replace them?

If Brad can re-sign Fournier, then that combination of Simmons, Fournier, Brown and Tatum will be absolutely deadly in transition.  Throw Horford in that starting 5 and you potentially have a top 5 defence (you could pretty much switch everything on D) and Simmon's lack of a shot barely matters because you have four other guys on the court who can all shoot. 

Simmon's would be the 4th (maybe even 5th) scoring option in that lineup, so he wouldn't be under any real pressure to score.  All he has to do is focus on handling the ball, pushing in transition, and playing defence.  He'll get his 10-15 points a night either way, as he always does. 

[Muzzy66]

I would do that deal all day every day without even a moment of hesitation.

Philly fans should love this trade. Smart is every bit a great defensive force in the backcourt as Simmons. And Smart can hit threes and won't hit free throws in the playoffs at a 35% rate.

And they get Thompson and picks.

Simmons is the singular most overrated player in the NBA. I want nada to do with Ben Simmons. He is as good at 24 years of age as he was at 18. There is definitely something wrong with that that should make GMs not want to trade for him.

Also you criticise Simmons for his lack of development - how much has Smart developed??  He's gone nowhere in like 6 years.  I thought last season he was finally taking a positive step, but then this year he proved that he's still the same old guy. 

Simmons won’t shoot and is a terrible free throw shooter. Even if he does have the talent I don’t think he’s a great fit next to Brown and Tatum because not only he needs the ball in his hands he has NO outside shot as demonstrated against the Hawks and the Celtics a few years ago. I much rather have Smart who is actually a better shooter from the field and on the free throw line. Smart has actually rose to the occasion rather than Simmons who whitered as seen when he passed up an open dunk to Thybulle who was swarmed. Bottom line is that Simmons may be an all star he’s at the lower end and needs a team that specifically fits his strengths and the Celtics aren’t it.

Who cares if he won't shoot? 

If Brad can bring back Fournier then you have your #1 (Tatum), #2 (Brown) and #3 (Fournier) scorers plus Horford in your starting 5.  All of those guys are serious three point threats that the defence MUST respect, which dramatically reduces the impact of Simmon's lack of an outside shot.  It also helps to stretch the floor so he can attack the basket, which he is excellent at (69% FG < 3 feet, 49% FT rate). 

He'd be the 4th or 5th offensive option so there would be pretty much zero pressure on him as a scorer.  All he has to do is defend, distribute, rebound, control the pace. If there is any textbook scenario that would be optimal for Simmons, that surely is it. 

He's still only 24 as well, so there is still some chance he could improve his jumper.  His percentages from three and from mid-range were both career highs this year.  Not suggesting he'll ever be a good shooter, but if he can reach a point where he can at least knock down open midrange jumpers with some consistency he becomes much more valuable.

I also think Fournier is probably far more likely to come back in this scenario, since the loss of Kemba and Smart makes him a clear starter and #3 offensive option, meaning he'd have a significant and clearly defined role.   I wouldn't be shocked if this was part of the reason behind moving Kemba to begin with (in addition to the obvious reasons of injury + contract).

[Rondo9]

In case you didn't just see that last play live, Simmons gave up an open dunk because he's a) too scared to take a shot, and b) concerned with his passing stats. He's too far in his own head.

We don't even have a coach hired yet. We'd need one with a sports psychology background to fix Simmons

I saw it. I also heard fans booing him earlier in the game.

The fanbase turned on him. He needs a fresh start. He's still one of the best defenders in the NBA and an elite passer. He's also great in the open court.

He'd get booed here as well. Appreciation of his game aside, we're giving way too much for him.

Why do you say that? 

We're talking about trading two fairly one-dimensional role players (Smart and TT) and a couple for late first rounders for a three-time all star. who's 24 years old.  Seems like pretty fair value to me, especially given that Smart and TT are both going to be expiring contracts next year and there's a reasonable chance that neither of them will be re-signed next season either way. 

Trade them for Simmons, or risk letting them both walk for nothing, with no cap space to replace them?

If Brad can re-sign Fournier, then that combination of Simmons, Fournier, Brown and Tatum will be absolutely deadly in transition.  Throw Horford in that starting 5 and you potentially have a top 5 defence (you could pretty much switch everything on D) and Simmon's lack of a shot barely matters because you have four other guys on the court who can all shoot. 

Simmon's would be the 4th (maybe even 5th) scoring option in that lineup, so he wouldn't be under any real pressure to score.  All he has to do is focus on handling the ball, pushing in transition, and playing defence.  He'll get his 10-15 points a night either way, as he always does.

Who cares? Have you've seen the series against the Hawks? No matter what option you are, you NEED to shoot. Simmons won't shoot the ball which make the offense more predictable. It doesn't matter how good the defense is, it can only get you far. Besides, aside from last season the Celtics consistently ranked top ten or top five defense without Simmons. Depending on what happens this offseason, I could see the Celtics return the form depending on the coach and the players that they acquire. It's also fair to question Simmons' desire to win? Does he truly want to win? Or does he want to put up flashy numbers that doesn't mean anything in the long term. I know that Smart will give it all he got, I don't know if Simmons will dunk a ball or pass to his teammate who's not even expecting it because he's afraid he might get fouled.

[Muzzy66]

Imagine Simmons playing off the ball in the half court, setting hard picks on the perimeter and then rolling hard to the basket. He'd transform into a dominant 2-way player. I mean, is Simmons all that different from Bam? Neither of them stretches the floor, yet nobody is complaining about Bam's shooting. Simmons is a more versatile/switchable defender. Bam is a better rim protector. Other than that, their games are very similar.

I've wondered this for a while - how much more effective could Simmons be if he was playing as a big rather than as a PG?

Per 36 Simmons has career averages of 16.9 pts, 8.6 reb, 8.2 assists, 56% FG and 69% FG within 3 feet.  Playing at the PF / C spot I expect he would putting up a double double or at the least very close to it (probably 15 pts and 9.5 reb).

If he was playing in those positions then (much like the Bam scenario) I doubt many people would criticise him for his lack of shooting ability.  The fact that he plays in the backcourt draws attention to his shooting woes and really highlights them.

People downplay Simmon's playmaking skills but have reality is they do this when comparing him against other high-level NBA point guards.  The fact that this guy (at his size) has even been ABLE to play four NBA seasons as a starting PG on a perennial contender should say a lot about just how impressively talented he is.  Most NBA players his size would draw "wows" if they spent one game at the PG spot while desperately filling in for an injured teammate.  This guy does it on a night basis, and more often then not he outplays his opponent.

[Muzzy66]

Who cares? Have you've seen the series against the Hawks? No matter what option you are, you NEED to shoot. Simmons won't shoot the ball which make the offense more predictable. It doesn't matter how good the defense is, it can only get you far. Besides, aside from last season the Celtics consistently ranked top ten or top five defense without Simmons. Depending on what happens this offseason, I could see the Celtics return the form depending on the coach and the players that they acquire. It's also fair to question Simmons' desire to win? Does he truly want to win? Or does he want to put up flashy numbers that doesn't mean anything in the long term. I know that Smart will give it all he got, I don't know if Simmons will dunk a ball or pass to his teammate who's not even expecting it because he's afraid he might get fouled.

As long as Simmons is on a team who's entire system is built around a slow, immobile, paint-dominant big man his weaknesses will continue to be exchagerated and his strengths will continuously struggle to shine. 

Simmons' ultimate scenario is to be in a high-tempo offence surrounded by four high quality perimeter oriented scorers who can stretch the floor.  In this scenario he can push in transition and constantly attack the basket, drawing opponent attention, and kicking out to scorers.  Assuming Boston can retain Fournier, this is exactly the situation he would be playing in (with a starting five of Simmons, Fournier, Brown, Tatum and Horford).

He'd be moving from the worst possible situation for his skill set (where he still does fairly well), to the best.

The issues in the Hawks series aren't because of Simmons' flaws, they are because of his team's inability to properly utilise him.  Pretty much every NBA player has weaknesses that can be exploited - it's up to their coach / GM to put them in a system where those weaknesses are best hidden, and strengths emphasised.  That's never been the case in Philly as long as Simmons has been there.

I don't believe Simmons is the best player on a championship team.  But used correctly I think he could be the guy who puts the team over the top as it's 2nd or 3rd most important piece.   Either way I'll take him on the roster over Smart + TT all day, every day.  Especially not that we brought in Horford and Moses, which makes TT largely disposable.

[gouki88]

The defences of Simmons are hilarious.