CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: LarBrd33 on May 24, 2018, 02:17:09 AM
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Gordon Hayward career playoff stats: 19.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 0.9 steals - 40%/36%/95% shooting - 15 games with 4 wins
Jayson Tatum career playoff stats: 18.4 points, 4.3 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.2 steals - 46%/33%/84% - 17 games with 11 wins
Hayward put up great stats in the playoffs last year, but he has only been out of the first round once in his entire career.
I feel bad for Gordon for a number of reasons, but one of them is that the guy came to Boston thinking he'd be "the man", but after the Kyrie trade, the injuries and the emergence of our young guys, there's a possibility he's going to be the 3rd or 4th best player on this team heading forward.
Granted, I thought healthy Hayward was the best two-way player on the team. I hope the guy can get healthy.
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Hayward is a great defender, and that wont show up in stats. He's like horford, he does the little things on defense role switching correctly that add up to wins. He's multifaceted on offense being able to score from a lot of places, which helps spread the floor and mix lineups. That is incredibly valuable. Also, he has playmaking ability and he can bring the ball up the court, I mean these are list of intangibles that won't show up in stats but make a player a lot better than other players with same or better stats
Still tatums numbers look great. The future is so bright. Hayward will be the best 2 way player and 2nd best offensive player on the team. I don't get the "I want to be the man" vibe from Hayward. He seems super team oriented and ecstatic that the young guys are growing. He wants to win a ring more than anything and it takes things like tatum averaging about 20 PPG to make it happen
I think the crazy and funny thing to start thinking about is this - will Haywards first ring come from a team he played a total of 5 minutes on? Brad did get him involved in the video coordinator role also so Hayward did contribute that way
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Gordon doesn’t seem like the type of player that cares if he is the “man”. I thought he came here to win which we should big time next year.
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Even crazier to think how much better this team will be WITH Hayward (and Kyrie) next year at this time.
The reality is that this team looking at DEEP playoff runs for the next several years, with many of them ending in mid-June.
I LOVE this.
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Well it's gonna be #ringszn this year so I'm interested to see if Tatum wins FMVP or not 8)
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Hayward is not the 4th best player on the team.. GH is still the 2nd most important player next to Kyrie. But Hayward may defer to either Brown or Tatum in terms of scoring but GH will help this team in so many ways other than score.
Im going to just savor every record being shattered by our beloved rook during this playoff run. He will beat Kareems record in 20+ playoff scoring in the next game or two so sky's the limit.
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Hayward is not the 4th best player on the team.. GH is still the 2nd most important player next to Kyrie. But Hayward may defer to either Brown or Tatum in terms of scoring but GH will help this team in so many ways other than score.
Im going to just savor every record being shattered by our beloved rook during this playoff run. He will beat Kareems record in 20+ playoff scoring in the next game or two so sky's the limit.
Right. Let's give credit where it's due for Kyrie and Hayward too.
Hayward and Kyrie, when a play breaks down, can make everyone spread the floor (then call for a screen - or not), and create something out of nothing.
On the other end, Hayward can pretty much always defend the best wing on the other team. We need to hide Tatum.
Looking forward to Hayward (and Kyrie) re-joining, and essentially having a Jimmy Butler-esque effect on the team, lifting everyone up on this young Celtics squad.
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For some people, this kind of thread topic is surely a pretext to "trade Hayward", "trade Kyrie" or "trade Rozier" discussions. I say "don't do it". Don't do anything except around the edges (add 1st round pick, re-sign Smart). Just add Hayward and Kyrie, and voila! Championship.
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Hayward was an all star in a stacked Western Conference last year. If he's the 4th best player on our team next year, we're probably going to be favorites for a title. If you look at Hayward's career, he's been improving every year. We still may not have seen his best.
Ainge shouldn't be trading any of our main players in a trade that doesn't involve Anthony Davis.
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If one compares Tatum to Hayward as Rookies then I can understand how the OP went this direction.
Tatum is mature beyond his years. I think he is also able to break people down or will be, the guy is really good for a rookie. I think his ceiling is much higher than some of the other rookies.
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If one compares Tatum to Hayward as Rookies then I can understand how the OP went this direction.
Tatum is mature beyond his years. I think he is also able to break people down or will be, the guy is really good for a rookie. I think his ceiling is much higher than some of the other rookies.
I mean if we're comparing them as rookies, it's no comparison. Tatum is head and shoulders better. I'm talking about the entirety of Hayward's playoff career. He's only won 4 games. Tatum already has a better playoff resume.
If Tatum develops as typical phenoms do, he could be better than Hayward as soon as next season.
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Tatum will be better in a couple of years but assuming he comes back from his injury close to his previous self, Hayward is currently the better player because he is more solid defensively, and he's also a proven playmaker. Tatum is a good scorer to this point, but I don't see him making plays for others in the pick and roll quite yet. Hayward will give us another pick and roll ball handler next year, and that will be more valuable for this teams scoring than isolation scoring which Tatum is very good at already.
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Why do we INSIST on pitting our players against each other?!?
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I don't really care about the comparison but if we make the Finals Tatum is going to shatter the rookie playoff scoring record. Could break it even if we don't.
Some guys play their whole careers without getting 400 playoff points. Ol Tater's gonna do it before he's old enough to drink. Pretty incredible.
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If one compares Tatum to Hayward as Rookies then I can understand how the OP went this direction.
Tatum is mature beyond his years. I think he is also able to break people down or will be, the guy is really good for a rookie. I think his ceiling is much higher than some of the other rookies.
I mean if we're comparing them as rookies, it's no comparison. Tatum is head and shoulders better. I'm talking about the entirety of Hayward's playoff career. He's only won 4 games. Tatum already has a better playoff resume.
If Tatum develops as typical phenoms do, he could be better than Hayward as soon as next season.
I know this might be a serious hot take, but at the rate Tatum and Brown have been improving this year, I wouldn't be surprised if both are either equal to or better than Hayward by the end of next season. It might not happen, but I wouldn't be shocked at all if it did.
for the eastern conf finals
Brown 19.6 ppg / 5 rpg / 1.8 assists / 31.8 min per game
Tatum 17.2 ppg / 3.8 rpg / 2.2 assists / 37 min per game
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Hayward is not the 4th best player on the team.. GH is still the 2nd most important player next to Kyrie. But Hayward may defer to either Brown or Tatum in terms of scoring but GH will help this team in so many ways other than score.
Im going to just savor every record being shattered by our beloved rook during this playoff run. He will beat Kareems record in 20+ playoff scoring in the next game or two so sky's the limit.
I don't know how to rank the players, but I will say this: if the Cs lost Al instead of Gordon for the year, we would not still be playing.
This isn't about whether Al is "better" than Gordon in the abstract. It's that there is nobody else who gives the Cs what he does. We have several wings, who range from all-star (Hayward) to future all-star (Tatum, probably Brown). For most of the year we had another elite scorer (Kyrie) and we still can find points with our talent and motion. But without Al, the anchor of our defense, critical floor-spacer, solid passer, the falloff to his replacement would be very steep.
Some love for Al, please.
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Regarding Tatum and Brown, they're only going to get better when Hayward comes back next season.
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Hayward is not the 4th best player on the team.. GH is still the 2nd most important player next to Kyrie. But Hayward may defer to either Brown or Tatum in terms of scoring but GH will help this team in so many ways other than score.
Im going to just savor every record being shattered by our beloved rook during this playoff run. He will beat Kareems record in 20+ playoff scoring in the next game or two so sky's the limit.
No, but he'll likely be the least important starter next year. We have 2-3 guys that can replicate what he does.
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Gordon Hayward career playoff stats: 19.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 0.9 steals - 40%/36%/95% shooting - 15 games with 4 wins
Jayson Tatum career playoff stats: 18.4 points, 4.3 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.2 steals - 46%/33%/84% - 17 games with 11 wins
Hayward put up great stats in the playoffs last year, but he has only been out of the first round once in his entire career.
I feel bad for Gordon for a number of reasons, but one of them is that the guy came to Boston thinking he'd be "the man", but after the Kyrie trade, the injuries and the emergence of our young guys, there's a possibility he's going to be the 3rd or 4th best player on this team heading forward.
Granted, I thought healthy Hayward was the best two-way player on the team. I hope the guy can get healthy.
What do you think the Celtics will do with all these guys? Can they possibly keep them all?
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Lol don’t sleep on Hayward! I think many will be pleasantly surprised at how good we’ve got it in the wings position next year. GH is a better player than Tatum right now in practically every facet of the game (maybe not dunking but GH can get up nonetheless).
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Why do we INSIST on pitting our players against each other?!?
Because we are all drama queens? ;D
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Lol don’t sleep on Hayward! I think many will be pleasantly surprised at how good we’ve got it in the wings position next year. GH is a better player than Tatum right now in practically every facet of the game (maybe not dunking but GH can get up nonetheless).
If Gordon is better in Every Facet... it's not by much... But there is no Denying that Tatum as a Rookie is very comparable to Gordon as an 8-year vet...
And next year Tatum could (and most likely will) make a serious jump in his game...
We have to keep in mind that this is his first time around the Track... This thing he is doing in the playoffs is simply special...
Tatum will be better than Gordon when its all said and done... This is inevitable... If he is not better at this moment he is darn darn close. He has that "it" factor..
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Lol don’t sleep on Hayward! I think many will be pleasantly surprised at how good we’ve got it in the wings position next year. GH is a better player than Tatum right now in practically every facet of the game (maybe not dunking but GH can get up nonetheless).
If Gordon is better in Every Facet... it's not by much... But there is no Denying that Tatum as a Rookie is very comparable to Gordon as an 8-year vet...
And next year Tatum could (and most likely will) make a serious jump in his game...
We have to keep in mind that this is his first time around the Track... This thing he is doing in the playoffs is simply special...
Tatum will be better than Gordon when its all said and done... This is inevitable... If he is not better at this moment he is darn darn close. He has that "it" factor..
Okay, so what?
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Lol don’t sleep on Hayward! I think many will be pleasantly surprised at how good we’ve got it in the wings position next year. GH is a better player than Tatum right now in practically every facet of the game (maybe not dunking but GH can get up nonetheless).
If Gordon is better in Every Facet... it's not by much... But there is no Denying that Tatum as a Rookie is very comparable to Gordon as an 8-year vet...
And next year Tatum could (and most likely will) make a serious jump in his game...
We have to keep in mind that this is his first time around the Track... This thing he is doing in the playoffs is simply special...
Tatum will be better than Gordon when its all said and done... This is inevitable... If he is not better at this moment he is darn darn close. He has that "it" factor..
Okay, so what?
lol, so nothing. It doesn't matter who is better.. for now.
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This isn’t aimed at the original point (i.e, Tatum’s playoff record versus Gordon’s), but really, who cares about who is the better player? I get it in terms of how exciting it is to have a young potential all star on the team (possibly stars, given Brown’s performance), but let’s not forget that Hayward has actually produced these stats throughout the course of a season and proven a level of consistency that is admirable in its own right.
Tatum is really good. The comparisons to Pierce, Paul George, Danny Granger, (insert other all star) are all justified and exciting. And Hayward? Hayward is also really good; his ability to put up 20, 5, and 5 is documented and, again, exciting. I think the most exciting part of this entire scenario is that basketball is in a state in which two players with profiles similar to Tatum and Hayward can coexist and thrive, unlike 15 or so years ago when we would have needed a traditional big to round out the roster.
It’s a good time to be a fan of this exceptionally talented and deep team.
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Lol don’t sleep on Hayward! I think many will be pleasantly surprised at how good we’ve got it in the wings position next year. GH is a better player than Tatum right now in practically every facet of the game (maybe not dunking but GH can get up nonetheless).
If Gordon is better in Every Facet... it's not by much... But there is no Denying that Tatum as a Rookie is very comparable to Gordon as an 8-year vet...
And next year Tatum could (and most likely will) make a serious jump in his game...
We have to keep in mind that this is his first time around the Track... This thing he is doing in the playoffs is simply special...
Tatum will be better than Gordon when its all said and done... This is inevitable... If he is not better at this moment he is darn darn close. He has that "it" factor..
Okay, so what?
lol, so nothing. It doesn't matter who is better.. for now.
Well, I agree then. Like I said previously, no sense in pitting our guys against each other. Be happy we have BOTH.
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Good thread. TP to the OP.
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Gordon Hayward career playoff stats: 19.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 0.9 steals - 40%/36%/95% shooting - 15 games with 4 wins
Jayson Tatum career playoff stats: 18.4 points, 4.3 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.2 steals - 46%/33%/84% - 17 games with 11 wins
Hayward put up great stats in the playoffs last year, but he has only been out of the first round once in his entire career.
I feel bad for Gordon for a number of reasons, but one of them is that the guy came to Boston thinking he'd be "the man", but after the Kyrie trade, the injuries and the emergence of our young guys, there's a possibility he's going to be the 3rd or 4th best player on this team heading forward.
Granted, I thought healthy Hayward was the best two-way player on the team. I hope the guy can get healthy.
I don't think Hayward signed to become "the man." He liked the team (especially wanting to play with IT and Al, as I recall), the City and, most importantly, the coach.
Not sure what purpose this comparison serves, other than to stir some pot of contention.
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Lol don’t sleep on Hayward! I think many will be pleasantly surprised at how good we’ve got it in the wings position next year. GH is a better player than Tatum right now in practically every facet of the game (maybe not dunking but GH can get up nonetheless).
If Gordon is better in Every Facet... it's not by much... But there is no Denying that Tatum as a Rookie is very comparable to Gordon as an 8-year vet...
And next year Tatum could (and most likely will) make a serious jump in his game...
We have to keep in mind that this is his first time around the Track... This thing he is doing in the playoffs is simply special...
Tatum will be better than Gordon when its all said and done... This is inevitable... If he is not better at this moment he is darn darn close. He has that "it" factor..
I mean, yeah, Tatum will likely be better than Hayward. I don't think that's controversial.
Tatum has to develop, but he's only 20 and he's already the #1 scorer on a potential finals team, is #2 all time in consecutive 20-point playoff games for a rookie, and will almost certainly become the all time rookie playoff leading scorer if we win 1 more game.
And of 19 year old NBA players, I think only Lebron, Kobe, Durant and Melo had better PERs. So he's got a decent shot at being better than all but the top 5-10 players in the entire NBA in a few years, based on how good he already is now, and based on his abilities now vs. other players who had those abilities at this same age.
But the thing is, Hayward hasn't played a season with the Celtics yet. Tatum has. So while it seems crazy that the 20 year old has a better resume than the 28 year old, it's actually the 28 year old who hasn't had the experience. We all know the Jazz, even now, are not the Celtics.
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Gordon Hayward career playoff stats: 19.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 0.9 steals - 40%/36%/95% shooting - 15 games with 4 wins
Jayson Tatum career playoff stats: 18.4 points, 4.3 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.2 steals - 46%/33%/84% - 17 games with 11 wins
Ya, but Hayward's numbers were in the Western Conference, while Tatum's are from the East. That's like comparing the stats of somebody playing a game on Extreme difficulty with somebody playing on Easy.
To be fair, the West is at least 2x harder then the East, so I think we should apply a factor of 2 to all of Hayward's stats to fairly adjust so it's an apples to apples comparison.
So Hayward was basically averaging 39.2/10.4/6.6/1.8 on 80%/72%/190% shooting had he played in the East.
And if you think those stats look crazy, we'll now verify this 2x factor by looking at Isaiah's stats going from East to West. He dropped from 30 to 15ppg, 0.9 to 0.4spg, 0.2 to 0.1bpg, and 1 All-D team vote to 0. Math checks out.
So you just got to know how to do the math.
(https://m.popkey.co/411e36/DMKAq_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-web&p=usa_network&i=suits-ent&l=search&f=.gif)
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I'm glad people haven't forgotten already how good Hayward was (and hopefully still is). He's tailor-made for this team, and for the league in general the way it is right now. Can handle, shoot, rebound, pass, body up big guys on D, stay with little guys on the perimeter. He's going to be a godsend to this team next year.
This team is going to be loaded next year, and adding Hayward is going to make their offense and their DEFENSE even better.
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This may be true. Tatum and Brown both have huge upside, but that doesn't mean they have the IQ yet to make the right basketball play each possession.
This is what Hayward and Horford both bring to the table. They will not only exemplify making the right play, but their play will enable Brown and Tatum to take good shots and be highly efficient.
When I say that I think Hayward might come off the bench next year, it's not because he isn't invaluable, or because I think he is worse than Brown and Tatum. I think he is better than they are now, but I think he has the empty ego and high IQ necessary to fit in around everyone else, making high IQ basketball plays, and raising the entire quality of the team.
I could easily see Hayward and Horford's numbers lower than Brown, Tatum, and Irving next year. But every person on the team has too make everyone else better. Tatum and Brown can't do that yet (and Irving is still learning how to do that), but Horford and Hayward can.
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Gordon Hayward career playoff stats: 19.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 0.9 steals - 40%/36%/95% shooting - 15 games with 4 wins
Jayson Tatum career playoff stats: 18.4 points, 4.3 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.2 steals - 46%/33%/84% - 17 games with 11 wins
Ya, but Hayward's numbers were in the Western Conference, while Tatum's are from the East. That's like comparing the stats of somebody playing a game on Extreme difficulty with somebody playing on Easy.
To be fair, the West is at least 2x harder then the East, so I think we should apply a factor of 2 to all of Hayward's stats to fairly adjust so it's an apples to apples comparison.
So Hayward was basically averaging 39.2/10.4/6.6/1.8 on 80%/72%/190% shooting had he played in the East.
And if you think those stats look crazy, we'll now verify this 2x factor by looking at Isaiah's stats going from East to West. He dropped from 30 to 15ppg, 0.9 to 0.4spg, 0.2 to 0.1bpg, and 1 All-D team vote to 0. Math checks out.
So you just got to know how to do the math.
(https://m.popkey.co/411e36/DMKAq_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-web&p=usa_network&i=suits-ent&l=search&f=.gif)
TP. This post made me actually laugh out loud at work the further I got.
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Is Tatum's HOF ceremony happening before or after the game tonight?
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I think to be fair if you quote stats to enhance your argument then you should consider a players teammates. No way Hayward played on a comparable team in Utah to our current Celtics..
I think we are really lucky to have our players and see no reason Brad cant start Horford, Kyrie, Brown, Tatum and Hayward in every game. At the 5 minute mark he makes a change. Simple positionless basketball with matchups adjusted as you go.
Hayward Tatum and Brown all can destroy most opposing PF offensively already. If they score on us or rebound over us we attack and get them in foul trouble.