Author Topic: Would lacking a ring affect your judgment on these current players?  (Read 1187 times)

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Offline RodyTur10

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In lots of talks about past and current players the greatness of a player gets marginalized by the argument of the lack of rings a player won in his career. Or more broadly, the lack of playoff success a player has had with the teams he was on. It annoys me because the so-called supporting cast, coaching, injuries and luck have a lot to do with the amount of team success a player will have in his career.

Therefore the question: does (or will) the lack of winning a ring affect your judgment on these active players (25+ years old) listed below? (in order of position/age)

Feel free to criticize my tiers anyway, but also give an argument why you would hold a specific player higher or lower in regard based on whether he'll win a championship or not.

Tier A (perennial MVP candidate)

Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Carmelo Anthony, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis, Dwight Howard

Tier B (regular All NBA)

Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, LaMarcus Aldridge, Blake Griffin, Rudy Gobert, Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokic

Tier C (perennial All Star)

Derrick Rose, John Wall, Isaiah Thomas, Kemba Walker, DeMar DeRozan, Bradley Beal, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, DeMarcus Cousins, Joakim Noah, DeAndre Jordan

Tier D (borderline/occasional All Star)

Goran Dragic, Jeff Teague, Mike Conley, Eric Bledsoe, Victor Oladipo, Lou Williams, Jrue Holiday, CJ McCollum, Gordon Hayward, Kyle Korver, Khris Middleton, Brook Lopez, Nikola Vucevic, Andre Drummond

Made a few modifications (examples: Anthony, Davis, Butler, Gobert, Jordan a tier higher and Lopez a tier lower)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 09:02:06 AM by RodyTur10 »

Re: Would lacking a ring affect your judgment on these current players?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2020, 08:31:30 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I think for the younger elite guys on your list, like Giannis, Davis and Jokic - the last two of which I believe to have been MVP-tier players for the last 3 years - it would be more telling, as all 3 seem to be in good spots to compete soon. Giannis and Davis are on the two strongest teams in the league record-wise, and Jokic is on a team not far behind.

For guys like Paul and Melo it's different. We've seen how their career has played out, or at least their prime. We know they've had chances (Paul in LA and Houston, Melo in NY and Denver) with pretty strong teams, yet they've never made it to the biggest stage, both at fault of their own play and of others. Yet I think they are both routinely underrated due to having never won.

Using the example of Paul, had he won just one championship, I feel as if he would have firmly established himself as a top-4 point guard ever, alongside Magic, Oscar and Stockton. He would probably be viewed as better than Nash, and almost certainly viewed as better than Kidd and Thomas.

I think for a lot of those guys it also depends on how the rest of their career plays out. Say, Damian Lillard never wins a ring, but stays on Portland and ends up with ~26k points, 10 All-Star appearances, 8 All-NBA appearances and a bunch of solid team finishes. I think that he'll be respected as one of those greats who never had a competitive team built around him, and he would likely go down as the best Blazer ever. He's currently already #2.

I've rambled on a bit, but I think it's a good question. I think for the most part, the better the player, the more it's held against them for not having won a ring, especially if they've been healthy. It's thrown against Charles Barkley all the time, yet I don't think anyone holds it against a player like Rose. It's also often a question of era. Elgin Baylor, and both Karl Malone and Stockton being examples of that. Legendary players who were unfortunately timed.

Also, got a chuckle at BroLo being a 'perennial All-Star' (one All-Star appearance) but DJ (3x All-NBA) and Middleton (back-to-back All-Star games) are a tier lower ;D
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Would lacking a ring affect your judgment on these current players?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2020, 09:13:29 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Thanks Gouki for your informed reply. I agree that especially MVP-level players are judged harshly when they don't win a ring or don't get to the NBA Finals repeatedly.

This decade (apart from last year's Raptors, and injuries with the Warriors favourited them immensely) it's all been about LeBron James (surrounded with multiple All Stars) and legendary build teams like the San Antonio Spurs and the Golden State Warriors.

I'm not going to hold not beating those teams against any superstar. It doesn't affect the greatness of Paul or Harden for me.

I have Lopez put a tier lower (although honestly I would have him over DeAndre Jordan anytime) and also put a few players a tier higher based on projections of getting more All NBA and All Star selections (examples: Butler, Davis and Gobert).

Re: Would lacking a ring affect your judgment on these current players?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2020, 10:27:38 AM »

Offline footey

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Getting a ring substantially changes the narrative of a player's career. Perhaps unfairly. But it does.

Winning 2008 championship put Pierce, Garnett and Allen up a notch.

Not winning has hurt Barkley, Melo and Vince Carter.

Wilt Chamberlain statistically dominated Bill Russell. Including head to head. Just a fact.  Few if any place Wilt above Bill in career greatness. Why? 11 to 2.

Re: Would lacking a ring affect your judgment on these current players?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2020, 11:09:34 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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If winning means something to you then yes.

Re: Would lacking a ring affect your judgment on these current players?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2020, 04:31:18 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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depends.  if that player is on a team with sufficient talent to be a contender, then probably.  if they're perpetually on understaffed teams, then I'd look at their style of play to judge their careers.

example, if KG had stayed in Minny his whole career, he'd still be considered great because it's not his fault that franchise could not add top talent to help him.  I certainly wouldn't fault him for showing loyalty to the franchise that drafted him, compensated him very well without hesitation and a truly supportive fanbase.  if anything, that would give him a bit more respect in my eye.  Consider it Ernie Banks syndrome.

Re: Would lacking a ring affect your judgment on these current players?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2020, 04:32:26 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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For a Celtic ?  Winning a title is mostly what you are judged by.
Other teams, it depends on many of the circumstances described above.
Lilliard is a good example of a player who deserves respect for his talent and for loyalty to his franchise.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 04:41:00 PM by tenn_smoothie »
The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: Would lacking a ring affect your judgment on these current players?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2020, 05:16:37 PM »

Offline Who

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Absolutely. Gotta prove yourself at the highest level.