Author Topic: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break  (Read 2568 times)

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Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2019, 02:21:20 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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They've always fired 3's at will under Brad. The difference is that in the past they've played consistent defense throughout games to make up for the periods when nothing was falling.  That's not the case this season for whatever reason. 

As Stevens himself said last night - he's never been part of a team that relied only on its shooting to beat teams.  Of course as coach, he's responsible for getting his team to play defense - and this annoying habit of good players having big time scoring games against them just keeps recurring.  As does their inability to deal with teams that have a couple of bigs who can hit the offensive boards and score.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2019, 02:53:36 PM »

Offline Who

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I was watching some old games recently and it was beautiful to see a proper fastbreak being run. I hadn't realize how much I missed them. It brought so much excitement and speed to the game. I don't feel the same way at all when I see a player take a three on the break.

I wish teams (all teams) would run fastbreaks the old way and go for the easy 2.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2019, 02:54:35 PM »

Offline ozgod

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They've always fired 3's at will under Brad. The difference is that in the past they've played consistent defense throughout games to make up for the periods when nothing was falling.  That's not the case this season for whatever reason. 

As Stevens himself said last night - he's never been part of a team that relied only on its shooting to beat teams.  Of course as coach, he's responsible for getting his team to play defense - and this annoying habit of good players having big time scoring games against them just keeps recurring.  As does their inability to deal with teams that have a couple of bigs who can hit the offensive boards and score.

According to MassLive.com their defense has dropped off a cliff, as well as the overall performance of the current starting 5.

Code: [Select]
Defensive Rating

Team Overall 106.9 (5th in league)
Team Since ASB 111.5 (22nd in league)
Starting 5 Since ASB 112.1

Net Rating of Current Starting 5

Before ASB +11.9
After ASB -6.7
After ASB In 1st Qtrs -7.9

Data from https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/03/boston-celtics-analysis-brad-stevens-considers-changes-to-the-starting-lineup-every-day-but-what-else-would-work.html

Eye test confirms this - they miss switches on PnR due to not communicating, they don't hustle back in transition, they get treated like turnstiles 1v1. This wasn't happening earlier in the season. Maybe they're conserving energy for the playoffs when they will fix all this? The whole point of playing hard through the regular season is so those things become reflex during the postseason and it's certainly not reflex for them right now.


Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2019, 03:34:09 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The other thing this team does that I don't like (and I really noticed it when I was at the game last night) is they pass up ALOT of open shots when they're inside the perimeter.

Take Hayward for example because he's been guilty of this numerous times. He'll have the ball and will literally be frozen in time, trying to figure out whether to pass or shoot. It's almost the opposite extreme from chucking 3s and I can't stand both approaches.

If you've got the ball and no one is open, then shoot it! And it's not just Hayward. Alot of guys on the team do it. If you're afraid to take the shot and help take the game over then sit down and get someone else to do it.

It's like the team is playing scared and isn't loose.
So you are okay with just chucking it, just not from three?

If that's what you got out of what I wrote, then I have nothing else to say.
My apologizes, I should have expanded on that.

No, I get the point of not being timid. I get that that.

But your demand of them to just shoot it seems strange. I know you hate their three point shooting. But a lot of what is behind their three point shooting is that the team doesn't feel timid and do just shoot it.

Where I see a few players get timid sometimes is when they have that open long two, not necessarily anywhere inside the three point line, just those say, longer than 16 out to the line. I think the players start to hear the coaching in their heads that these long twos are bad shots, so they try to assess to shoot anyway, or pass to a better shot, or try to drive to a place to take a better shot(either out to the three point line or to the basket).

It's definitely the coaching causing that hesitation. This staff wants threes and layups and does not like that 17-22 foot shot. They don't want those shots being taken.

Funny enough though, Tatum and Morris actually seem to prefer those long twos to threes and love to go iso to create that shot.


Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2019, 05:29:19 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Just to be clear, I am talking about pull up threes ON THE FAST BREAK.

Watch the fourth quarter of yesterdays game and see us missing all of them.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2019, 06:06:55 PM »

Offline CptZoogs

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I miss the days of Pierce's elbow jumper.  That shot was money, but likely to be frowned on these days.  I think Jaylen has potential to be lethal on the block, but will he be allowed to really develop that aspect of his game?  Coaches are definitely overthinking things these days.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2019, 06:21:52 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I miss the days of Pierce's elbow jumper.  That shot was money, but likely to be frowned on these days. 

MJ, Kobe, Vince, Pierce...and many other wings thrived on this shot for so many years.  It was such a beautiful play.  And now it's a novelty the game shuns.

Durant and DeRozan may be the last two we see for a while that makes their hay on this shot.  And even Durant has gotten away from it, somewhat.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2019, 07:18:43 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
Please stop shooting threes like there is no tomorrow regardless of whether we are on the break or not.
 
I don't buy the whole narrative regarding the 3-point shot. Here's why:

- less driving to the basket --> less opportunities to score easy points from the charity stripe
- less fouls committed by opposing teams --> they almost never bench their players early with foul trouble
- longer shot attempts usually mean longer rebounds --> higher chance to concede free baskets in transition

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all teams should stop shooting that many threes. I mean, if you have the 2 best three-point shooters in NBA history, it's only logical to shoot threes like there is no tomorrow. Likewise, if you have Giannis, it's only logical to surround him with shooters in order to maximize his effectiveness in the paint.

We have neither the 2 best shooters of all time nor a virtually indefensible guy in the paint. Imo we shouldn't be shooting that many threes.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 07:28:30 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2019, 07:21:48 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
Please stop shooting threes like there is no tomorrow regardless of whether it's on the break or not.
 
I don't buy the whole narrative regarding the 3-point shot. Here's why:

-less driving to the basket --> less opportunities to score easy points from the charity line
-less fouls committed by opposing teams --> they almost never bench their players early with foul trouble
-longer shot attempts usually mean longer rebounds --> higher chance to concede free baskets in transition

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all teams should stop shooting that many threes. I mean, if you have the 2 best three-point shooters in NBA history, it's only logical to shoot threes like there is no tomorrow. Likewise, if you have Giannis, it's only logical to surround him with shooters in order to maximize his effectiveness in the paint.

We have neither the 2 best shooters of all time nor a virtually indefensible guy in the paint. Imo we shouldn't be shooting that many threes.

It's lazy basketball. But our biggest problem right now is no Horford. He is our most valuable player.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2019, 07:24:40 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
Please stop shooting threes like there is no tomorrow regardless of whether it's on the break or not.
 
I don't buy the whole narrative regarding the 3-point shot. Here's why:

-less driving to the basket --> less opportunities to score easy points from the charity line
-less fouls committed by opposing teams --> they almost never bench their players early with foul trouble
-longer shot attempts usually mean longer rebounds --> higher chance to concede free baskets in transition

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all teams should stop shooting that many threes. I mean, if you have the 2 best three-point shooters in NBA history, it's only logical to shoot threes like there is no tomorrow. Likewise, if you have Giannis, it's only logical to surround him with shooters in order to maximize his effectiveness in the paint.

We have neither the 2 best shooters of all time nor a virtually indefensible guy in the paint. Imo we shouldn't be shooting that many threes.

It's lazy basketball. But our biggest problem right now is no Horford. He is our most valuable player.
Never said that our biggest problem is Horford. It's not just Horford who's jacking up threes at the first opportunity. It's pretty much the whole team.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2019, 09:26:00 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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It works fine when we make them, trouble is we don't always make them.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2019, 09:35:18 PM »

Offline gpap

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The other thing this team does that I don't like (and I really noticed it when I was at the game last night) is they pass up ALOT of open shots when they're inside the perimeter.

Take Hayward for example because he's been guilty of this numerous times. He'll have the ball and will literally be frozen in time, trying to figure out whether to pass or shoot. It's almost the opposite extreme from chucking 3s and I can't stand both approaches.

If you've got the ball and no one is open, then shoot it! And it's not just Hayward. Alot of guys on the team do it. If you're afraid to take the shot and help take the game over then sit down and get someone else to do it.

It's like the team is playing scared and isn't loose.
So you are okay with just chucking it, just not from three?

If that's what you got out of what I wrote, then I have nothing else to say.
My apologizes, I should have expanded on that.

No, I get the point of not being timid. I get that that.

But your demand of them to just shoot it seems strange. I know you hate their three point shooting. But a lot of what is behind their three point shooting is that the team doesn't feel timid and do just shoot it.

Where I see a few players get timid sometimes is when they have that open long two, not necessarily anywhere inside the three point line, just those say, longer than 16 out to the line. I think the players start to hear the coaching in their heads that these long twos are bad shots, so they try to assess to shoot anyway, or pass to a better shot, or try to drive to a place to take a better shot(either out to the three point line or to the basket).

It's definitely the coaching causing that hesitation. This staff wants threes and layups and does not like that 17-22 foot shot. They don't want those shots being taken.

Funny enough though, Tatum and Morris actually seem to prefer those long twos to threes and love to go iso to create that shot.

That was exactly my point. Let's not forget there's only 24 seconds on the shot clock per possession and sometimes it appears they forget that. It's not crisp offense when a player has the ball for 3-4 seconds and isn't sure whether to shoot or pass, which tells me the team isn't on the same page. Not like it happens every possession but you see it happen alot and I think everyone on the team is guilty of it. Ideally, in a situation like that when a player is playing within the perimeter, it helps to have another player cut to the basket for the pass. Similary to when you see Kyrie and Horford play that give-in-go offense we've seen many times, where Kyrie looks like he's about to take it to the basket, so the defense collapses and Horford gets the pass and scores the bucket.

And then there's other occasions where there's clearly an open shot and for whatever reason, someone will look to pass to an open man that isn't there. You mentioned Tatum and Morris as being good jump shooters. If you do have the shot AND there's no one open, take it. Would just like to see an offense that's less stagnant and more fluid, that's all.

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2019, 09:39:33 PM »

Offline gpap

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It works fine when we make them, trouble is we don't always make them.

And you know what's funny. Yesterday when I was at the game, I was paying attention to the team practice. So they were all outside the 3 point line, either shooting or laying the ball up.

And of all freakin' people, Aron Baynes is practicing taking a 3 pointer. Lol.....why??????

Re: Please stop with the pull up threes on the break
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2019, 09:44:42 PM »

Offline cons

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after years of watching tommy and cooz this still gets me too. cooz would constantly say " get a good one"  and things like a real point guard can get layups for his teammates. tommy would constantly bemoan taking jumpers late in the game - thats when u gotta take it to the rim, make them foul you. he'd also constantly want the team to run more, run run - to get easy fast break points.  meaning dunks or layups.
  i agree 100% w the OPs point. its garbage to take a 3 on the break. should really never be done.
its against the teachings I've listened to for decades. I don't buy at all the new logic.  its junk and making an excuse for lazy less team oriented basketball.