Comparing Bender to another 2016 Draft Prospect

[ederson]

i give up....... if you really believe the the Isreali league is top3 - top5 in europe i`m really speechless. Amazing .... such a strong opinion without any real knowledge ....

[kozlodoev]

As for Maccabi Tel Aviv, they have won the third most Euroleague championships (last one two years ago) and have appeared in the finals the second most times.  So there is definitely some pedigree there.  You act like Bender is playing for Sister of the Poor.

Maccabi is playing against other teams in the Israeli league, not against itself.

I guess you do not understand team dynamics.  Competition for playing time is not against other teams, it is against your team.  Guys in DII college that score 25 a game might not crack a rotation in the ACC.

When he hits the floor, his underwhelming performance is not against his teammates.

There's a separate conversation to be had about what we should make of the Macabi frontcourt, which consists of relative nonames even by European standards.

[droopdog7]

i give up....... if you really believe the the Isreali league is top3 - top5 in europe i`m really speechless. Amazing .... such a strong opinion without any real knowledge ....

Yes, because the "proof" you're providing is so compelling.

Here are my points.  Bender's stats, the same as every other high profile European prospect at the same age, are largely meaningless.  You can't kill Bender for his stats when pretty much every other European players did the same at the same age.  Strength of league be [dang]ed, the teams/coaches are trying to win and it should not surprise that they aren't willing to play a 17/18 year old that should be a senior in high school.

People need to use their eyes.  Can the kid play or not? 

Now, he'll obviously need to improve with age so there is a fair amount of projection involved.  He isn't going to dominate tomorrow.  So there is risk. 

But please stop using meaningless stats to buttress your stance. 

[PickNRoll]

i give up....... if you really believe the the Isreali league is top3 - top5 in europe i`m really speechless. Amazing .... such a strong opinion without any real knowledge ....

Yes, because the "proof" you're providing is so compelling.

Here are my points.  Bender's stats, the same as every other high profile European prospect at the same age, are largely meaningless.  You can't kill Bender for his stats when pretty much every other European players did the same at the same age.  Strength of league be [dang]ed, the teams/coaches are trying to win and it should not surprise that they aren't willing to play a 17/18 year old that should be a senior in high school.

People need to use their eyes.  Can the kid play or not? 

Now, he'll obviously need to improve with age so there is a fair amount of projection involved.  He isn't going to dominate tomorrow.  So there is risk. 

But please stop using meaningless stats to buttress your stance.

No, he cannot play.  Not according to my eyes.

[PickNRoll]

Lots of talk in this thread about why he didn't play.  Far more important -- when he did play, he stunk.  And please don't show me another video of him making an open 3.

[ederson]

i give up....... if you really believe the the Isreali league is top3 - top5 in europe i`m really speechless. Amazing .... such a strong opinion without any real knowledge ....

Yes, because the "proof" you're providing is so compelling.

Here are my points.  Bender's stats, the same as every other high profile European prospect at the same age, are largely meaningless.  You can't kill Bender for his stats when pretty much every other European players did the same at the same age.  Strength of league be [dang]ed, the teams/coaches are trying to win and it should not surprise that they aren't willing to play a 17/18 year old that should be a senior in high school.

People need to use their eyes.  Can the kid play or not? 

Now, he'll obviously need to improve with age so there is a fair amount of projection involved.  He isn't going to dominate tomorrow.  So there is risk. 

But please stop using meaningless stats to buttress your stance.

So this means you have seen him play

And the issue here is not if he is good or not but the completely false impression that he plays in serious league against serious players and with serious teamates

[DefenseWinsChamps]

It's impossible to have reasonable conversations with you. There is no balance. If you don't like him as a prospect, that's fine. But don't twist the significant strengths and evidence that he shows potential. He might bust. There is evidence to support that. He might also be a star, there is evidence to support that.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore about obvious evidence that supports that he will be a successful NBA player.

[droopdog7]

i give up....... if you really believe the the Isreali league is top3 - top5 in europe i`m really speechless. Amazing .... such a strong opinion without any real knowledge ....

Yes, because the "proof" you're providing is so compelling.

Here are my points.  Bender's stats, the same as every other high profile European prospect at the same age, are largely meaningless.  You can't kill Bender for his stats when pretty much every other European players did the same at the same age.  Strength of league be [dang]ed, the teams/coaches are trying to win and it should not surprise that they aren't willing to play a 17/18 year old that should be a senior in high school.

People need to use their eyes.  Can the kid play or not? 

Now, he'll obviously need to improve with age so there is a fair amount of projection involved.  He isn't going to dominate tomorrow.  So there is risk. 

But please stop using meaningless stats to buttress your stance.

So this means you have seen him play

And the issue here is not if he is good or not but the completely false impression that he plays in serious league against serious players and with serious teamates

I've seen him play as much as anyone else has.  And I've seen the scouting videos as much as anyone else has.  And I like the tools, especially for a player his age.

Now, if people came out and said, he is a virtual unknown that may never develop into anything.  There is too much risk involved.  Hey, I buy that.  But I am not going to listen to more talk about meaningless stats or "scouting" reports like those offered by picknroll that counter everything ever written about the guy. 

[PickNRoll]

It's impossible to have reasonable conversations with you. There is no balance. If you don't like him as a prospect, that's fine. But don't twist the significant strengths and evidence that he shows potential. He might bust. There is evidence to support that. He might also be a star, there is evidence to support that.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore about obvious evidence that supports that he will be a successful NBA player.

I'd contend there's no evidence that he might be a star.  Not being disingenuous.  I literally don't see any evidence that he could be an NBA star.

I watched the highlights from every Israeli league game this year.  You can find them under the Maccabi channel on Youtube in chronological order.  Watched every highlight/scouting video available.  Even watched some full games. 

Of course, he's absent from many of the highlight videos, but the more telling clips are the ones where he isn't featured.  He is REALLY a project.  Displays almost zero situational awareness.  He's constantly playing with his back to the ball or running way under the hoop for rebounds, or even out of bounds sometimes.  He cuts without looking for the ball.  He whiffs on every screen he sets.  He is never in position to rebound.  He overhelps sometimes, then fails to help when he should.  He overcommits and can't change direction quickly.  He has no tools for creating space down low.  He is neutralized by anyone with an iota of strength.  He has a weak, narrow base which is unlikely to change.  He's not a quick 2nd leaper.  Falls asleep on both ends of the floor.  Makes decisions 1-2 seconds late.  No post game to speak of.  No elbow/ mid range game.  He does not have a good first step, contrary to some of these scouting reports.

He has a nice stroke and there's some 3 and D potential, but there is zero chance of this kid being a star.

[heyvik]

i give up....... if you really believe the the Isreali league is top3 - top5 in europe i`m really speechless. Amazing .... such a strong opinion without any real knowledge ....

Yes, because the "proof" you're providing is so compelling.

Here are my points.  Bender's stats, the same as every other high profile European prospect at the same age, are largely meaningless.  You can't kill Bender for his stats when pretty much every other European players did the same at the same age.  Strength of league be [dang]ed, the teams/coaches are trying to win and it should not surprise that they aren't willing to play a 17/18 year old that should be a senior in high school.

People need to use their eyes.  Can the kid play or not? 

Now, he'll obviously need to improve with age so there is a fair amount of projection involved.  He isn't going to dominate tomorrow.  So there is risk. 

But please stop using meaningless stats to buttress your stance.

So this means you have seen him play

And the issue here is not if he is good or not but the completely false impression that he plays in serious league against serious players and with serious teamates

I've seen him play as much as anyone else has.  And I've seen the scouting videos as much as anyone else has.  And I like the tools, especially for a player his age.

Now, if people came out and said, he is a virtual unknown that may never develop into anything.  There is too much risk involved.  Hey, I buy that.  But I am not going to listen to more talk about meaningless stats or "scouting" reports like those offered by picknroll that counter everything ever written about the guy.

This....too much of a risk at #3. You know some people fall in love with a player, not saying you in particular, and what that player's ceiling COULD be. I'm sure if we go back in time we'd could say the same thing for Porginis (sp)...but for the C's and where I think we are in the current progession, taking Bender, waiting (AND let's be honest) and hoping he develops is too much of a risk right now. Where would be be IF Bender doesn't turn into anything but a bench guy - which I think a lot of people are thinking based on what we see. Just my thought.

[heyvik]

It's impossible to have reasonable conversations with you. There is no balance. If you don't like him as a prospect, that's fine. But don't twist the significant strengths and evidence that he shows potential. He might bust. There is evidence to support that. He might also be a star, there is evidence to support that.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore about obvious evidence that supports that he will be a successful NBA player.

I'd contend there's no evidence that he might be a star.  Not being disingenuous.  I literally don't see any evidence that he could be an NBA star.

I watched the highlights from every Israeli league game this year.  You can find them under the Maccabi channel on Youtube in chronological order.  Watched every highlight/scouting video available.  Even watched some full games. 

Of course, he's absent from many of the highlight videos, but the more telling clips are the ones where he isn't featured.  He is REALLY a project.  Displays almost zero situational awareness.  He's constantly playing with his back to the ball or running way under the hoop for rebounds, or even out of bounds sometimes.  He cuts without looking for the ball.  He whiffs on every screen he sets.  He is never in position to rebound.  He overhelps sometimes, then fails to help when he should.  He overcommits and can't change direction quickly.  He has no tools for creating space down low.  He is neutralized by anyone with an iota of strength.  He has a weak, narrow base which is unlikely to change.  He's not a quick 2nd leaper.  Falls asleep on both ends of the floor.  Makes decisions 1-2 seconds late.  No post game to speak of.  No elbow/ mid range game.  He does not have a good first step, contrary to some of these scouting reports.

He has a nice stroke and there's some 3 and D potential, but there is zero chance of this kid being a star.

Very good points.....

[DefenseWinsChamps]

It's impossible to have reasonable conversations with you. There is no balance. If you don't like him as a prospect, that's fine. But don't twist the significant strengths and evidence that he shows potential. He might bust. There is evidence to support that. He might also be a star, there is evidence to support that.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore about obvious evidence that supports that he will be a successful NBA player.

I'd contend there's no evidence that he might be a star.  Not being disingenuous.  I literally don't see any evidence that he could be an NBA star.

I watched the highlights from every Israeli league game this year.  You can find them under the Maccabi channel on Youtube in chronological order.  Watched every highlight/scouting video available.  Even watched some full games. 

Of course, he's absent from many of the highlight videos, but the more telling clips are the ones where he isn't featured.  He is REALLY a project.  Displays almost zero situational awareness.  He's constantly playing with his back to the ball or running way under the hoop for rebounds, or even out of bounds sometimes.  He cuts without looking for the ball.  He whiffs on every screen he sets.  He is never in position to rebound.  He overhelps sometimes, then fails to help when he should.  He overcommits and can't change direction quickly.  He has no tools for creating space down low.  He is neutralized by anyone with an iota of strength.  He has a weak, narrow base which is unlikely to change.  He's not a quick 2nd leaper.  Falls asleep on both ends of the floor.  Makes decisions 1-2 seconds late.  No post game to speak of.  No elbow/ mid range game.  He does not have a good first step, contrary to some of these scouting reports.

He has a nice stroke and there's some 3 and D potential, but there is zero chance of this kid being a star.

Your absolute statements betray your bias

[LooseCannon]

He has a nice stroke and there's some 3 and D potential, but there is zero chance of this kid being a star.

I think he has at least as much star potential as anyone else being talked about as a possible #3 pick, but much less potential to be a go-to scorer.

[nickagneta]

I dont have any deep knowledge regarding Bender and think he is right up there with about 6 otgers that should be given consideration at #3, but it bugs the ever living hell out of me when people quote vertical jump numbers taken over a year ago as proof that he is unathletic,

First, he might have a higher vertical now that he isnt 16 anymore and has been working with professional trainers. Second, vertical leaping isnt the end all be all of athletic measurement. One can easily become a superstar in the NBA, be considered a ridiculously great athlete and not have a great vert number.

Again, I am neither a Bender supporter or detractor, but saying the kid isnt athletic simply because of a vert number and saying it over and over and over again doesnt prove the kid isnt a great athlete

[droopdog7]

i give up....... if you really believe the the Isreali league is top3 - top5 in europe i`m really speechless. Amazing .... such a strong opinion without any real knowledge ....

Yes, because the "proof" you're providing is so compelling.

Here are my points.  Bender's stats, the same as every other high profile European prospect at the same age, are largely meaningless.  You can't kill Bender for his stats when pretty much every other European players did the same at the same age.  Strength of league be [dang]ed, the teams/coaches are trying to win and it should not surprise that they aren't willing to play a 17/18 year old that should be a senior in high school.

People need to use their eyes.  Can the kid play or not? 

Now, he'll obviously need to improve with age so there is a fair amount of projection involved.  He isn't going to dominate tomorrow.  So there is risk. 

But please stop using meaningless stats to buttress your stance.

So this means you have seen him play

And the issue here is not if he is good or not but the completely false impression that he plays in serious league against serious players and with serious teamates

I've seen him play as much as anyone else has.  And I've seen the scouting videos as much as anyone else has.  And I like the tools, especially for a player his age.

Now, if people came out and said, he is a virtual unknown that may never develop into anything.  There is too much risk involved.  Hey, I buy that.  But I am not going to listen to more talk about meaningless stats or "scouting" reports like those offered by picknroll that counter everything ever written about the guy.

This....too much of a risk at #3. You know some people fall in love with a player, not saying you in particular, and what that player's ceiling COULD be. I'm sure if we go back in time we'd could say the same thing for Porginis (sp)...but for the C's and where I think we are in the current progession, taking Bender, waiting (AND let's be honest) and hoping he develops is too much of a risk right now. Where would be be IF Bender doesn't turn into anything but a bench guy - which I think a lot of people are thinking based on what we see. Just my thought.

And that's fine.

And I've said many times already that I myself would not necessarily draft bender due to the risk.  But I would be excited if we did for two reasons; I am not all that excited about the other possibilities at #3 and, it would mean that DA thinks bender is worth the huge risk (which in my mind means that DA sees a potential star).

Bad reasons for not picking bender include his stats, his lack of strength, having to wait for him to develop, and his fit on the current team.  None of these things matter very much at all in my evaluation process.

As I have said countless times, you pick the player (i.e., talent) and don't think twice about anything else.  Every time.