Author Topic: This year's Big rotation better than last years  (Read 7211 times)

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Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2019, 12:09:52 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Horford, Baynes and Morris, all front court players last year, are being replaced with worse players. How can the team be better in the frontcourt?

Horford is miles better than Kanter.
Baynes is proven vet that can ball in the playoffs and most likely much better than unproven, yet to play an NBA Poirier.
Morris is proven vet that can ball in the playoffs and is most likely much better than unproven, yet to play in the NBA Grant Williams.

And the only way to make up for that overwhelming step back in quality play is to hope Robert Williams becomes more than the absolute nothing he was last year and a 7'6" freak of nature who has extremely limited athletic ability and basketball skill, learns how to play basketball at a high NBA level?!?!?!

This frontcourt is no where near as good as last year's frontcourt and could be a disaster on the defensive end, even if we do end up with more block shots as a team.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2019, 12:13:33 PM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

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The fact that this thread's premise "all hinges on if Tacko is on the team" sort of reveals how flimsy the argument is.

Counterpoint: This year's big rotation is actually worse

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2019, 12:46:47 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Comparing to last season is missing the point.  Our team severely underachieved last season and in my opinion, it was due largely to lack of legit big depth.  So from that team that already was deficient, we lose Horford, Morris, and Baynes while adding Kanter, and 3 rookies (Poirier, GWilliams, Fall).

I agree that Kanter may give us most of what Horford gave us and Poirier may be able to replace Baynes' "production" (if you can call it that) plus RWilliams may improve and help but can't see GWilliams replacing Morris.  And no, I don't see Tacko being in the mix this season.

It was our weakness last season and will be our weakness this season.  We need another starter level big as we did last season.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2019, 12:51:00 PM »

Offline gpap

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The fact that this thread's premise "all hinges on if Tacko is on the team" sort of reveals how flimsy the argument is.

Counterpoint: This year's big rotation is actually worse

Suddenly, I'm in the mood for Mexican food

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2019, 01:09:40 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

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It won't be close. Last year's rotation was better. Not only are we underrating Horford, but we're forgetting Baynes's value too.

We are banking on unknowns this year. Can RWIII take a 2nd year leap? (I am not convinced just because he showed some things in summer league.) Will Poirier translate? (Again, not holding my breath since he's never faced NBA competition.)

I am, however, slightly optimistic about Kanter and Theis. Kanter's defense was improved last year, according to people who followed the Knicks and Blazers. He'll never be Hakeem Olajuwon, but I'm hoping that in Stevens's system he can be adequate and at least not a liability.

Theis on the other hand played through injuries last year (I can't remember exactly what... a knee?). His first year, he was a revelation. He won't body up the likes of Embiid, but I think he'll be much more valuable this year than RWIII, Poirier, etc.

Lastly, don't be surprised if you see Grant Williams at the 5 in small ball lineups on occasion. I guarantee Stevens will give this a significant look.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2019, 01:32:28 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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I'll be interested to see how this group performs. Our guards and wings are well above average so we just need our bigs not to suck. While Kanter isn't known for his defense, he should be able to guard well down low and grab lots of rebounds. I don't think we are losing much, if anything, on offense with him over Horford (Hayward will take over the front-court playmaking).

Poirier will likely play the Baynes role. Theis should be a less injured Theis. And hopefully TL will be able to provide some quality limited minutes by the end of the season. I do not think Tacko will make the team.

I know Morris was a big part of our rotation last season, but Hayward and Tatum will be eating up most of those minutes with Grant/Theis there for back-up.

Overall, I expect us to perform at least as well as last year on the whole (the entire team, not just bigs) with an okay chance at going to the ECF should we be hitting our stride at the right time.



 TP. Balanced analysis.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2019, 01:41:30 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Horford, Baynes and Morris, all front court players last year, are being replaced with worse players. How can the team be better in the frontcourt?

Horford is miles better than Kanter.
Baynes is proven vet that can ball in the playoffs and most likely much better than unproven, yet to play an NBA Poirier.
Morris is proven vet that can ball in the playoffs and is most likely much better than unproven, yet to play in the NBA Grant Williams.

And the only way to make up for that overwhelming step back in quality play is to hope Robert Williams becomes more than the absolute nothing he was last year and a 7'6" freak of nature who has extremely limited athletic ability and basketball skill, learns how to play basketball at a high NBA level?!?!?!

This frontcourt is no where near as good as last year's frontcourt and could be a disaster on the defensive end, even if we do end up with more block shots as a team.




 Morris is out of this conversation. Not a real big. Gordon Hayward can do everything he can offensively. Or go with Semi if you need defense.

 So it's Horford and Baynes both rock solid. Here is my point.

 Horford was the only real big we could rely on!

 Baynes just too fragile when he was hurt which was all the Time. Defense was trash.

 So for me it's Horford vs

Enes Kanter
Robert Williams
Tacko Fall
Pourier

 Depth wise for REAL big men. It's a no contest winner.

 I give Danny props for patching together the frontcourt with Giant men.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2019, 02:09:43 PM »

Offline footey

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I think Al will be missed more on offense than defense. His defense declined last season.  We got beat a lot on pick and rolls last season, and Al didn't cover the paint as well as he had in prior seasons. Totally anecdotal observation by me.  But it seemed like we got beat an awful lot by fast guards who, once they got by the perimeter defense, scored with ease.  Some of that has to be on Al.  Obviously I would not expect anything better from Kanter (probably worse), I'm just pointing out that we seem to be lamenting the loss of the image of Al Horford's interior defense, but not so much his actual performance, which slipped.


Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2019, 02:17:50 PM »

Offline blink

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The big rotation is def worse right now than last years team.  I know that we are all hoping that Timelord makes a leap, that Poirier is going to play nba level def, and that Grant Williams is ready to contribute right away.  But those three things might not happen, and even if they do none of them will be as good as Horford was last year as a 2 way player.


Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2019, 02:21:29 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Call me Oliver Optimistic.

 This all hinges on if Tacko is on the team. No Tacko and I'm out on this idea.

 Horford out Kanter in. Horford is better all around, defense is much better. However Kanter Is twice the rebounder and can actually score inside easily.

 That inside scoring and Superior rebounding is really going to help the team and the lack of defense we can fill in with other players.

 Like the Timelord. He's going to be a very useful player here. His passing is looking very good. Great shotblocker, lob catcher, and rebounder.

 Morris out Grant Williams in. Most played fantastic the first half of the season but count me In I'm glad he's gone he's been replaced with Grant Williams an ultimate team guy the guy that's never going to go I so crazy will play defense with the combination of a he and Semi. I really don't think we're losing much at all.

 Yabu out, Baynes out. 6'10" Vincent Pourier in. 7'7" Tacko Fall in.

2018

Horford 6'8" 9' SR
Mook 6'7"
Baynes 6'10"
Bob Williams 6'10"
Theis 6'8"
Yabu 6'7"
Baynes 6'10"

2019

Tacko 7'7" 10'2" SR 290 pounds
Timelord 6'10 7'5" wingspan 9'4" SR
Pourier 6'11"  7'3" wingspan
Kanter 6'10" 9'2" SR 260 pounds 7'2" WS
Theis 6'8"
Grant Williams 6'6" 6'11" WS 8'6" SR
Tatum 6'8" 9' SR


 As you can see. What we lack in talent we make up in size and length. I'm exciting to see the bigger bigs playing this year.

 but we better be keeping the biggest of all big or this guy's going to be unhappy. Cheers big guys.
last year's was better.  Horford is that much better than anyone in our front court this coming year.

Tacko won't see the court.  Kanter's D has been average at its best.  Poirier is a complete unknown against NBA talent.  Timelord looks pretty with his blocks but his team D and help D are still a work in progress to be kind.  Theis was getting abused last year by more established players which was disheartening after him being such a pleasant surprise his first year.

Our front court is in a sorry state to start the year.  maybe by the end of the year Timelord improves, Kanter improves his D to better than average and Poirier surprises us (pleasantly) but I'm not going to get my hopes up.  Anyone pinning their hopes on any production from Tacko is fooling themselves.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2019, 02:31:28 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Call me Oliver Optimistic.

 This all hinges on if Tacko is on the team. No Tacko and I'm out on this idea.

 Horford out Kanter in. Horford is better all around, defense is much better. However Kanter Is twice the rebounder and can actually score inside easily.

 That inside scoring and Superior rebounding is really going to help the team and the lack of defense we can fill in with other players.

 Like the Timelord. He's going to be a very useful player here. His passing is looking very good. Great shotblocker, lob catcher, and rebounder.

 Morris out Grant Williams in. Most played fantastic the first half of the season but count me In I'm glad he's gone he's been replaced with Grant Williams an ultimate team guy the guy that's never going to go I so crazy will play defense with the combination of a he and Semi. I really don't think we're losing much at all.

 Yabu out, Baynes out. 6'10" Vincent Pourier in. 7'7" Tacko Fall in.

2018

Horford 6'8" 9' SR
Mook 6'7"
Baynes 6'10"
Bob Williams 6'10"
Theis 6'8"
Yabu 6'7"
Baynes 6'10"

2019

Tacko 7'7" 10'2" SR 290 pounds
Timelord 6'10 7'5" wingspan 9'4" SR
Pourier 6'11"  7'3" wingspan
Kanter 6'10" 9'2" SR 260 pounds 7'2" WS
Theis 6'8"
Grant Williams 6'6" 6'11" WS 8'6" SR
Tatum 6'8" 9' SR


 As you can see. What we lack in talent we make up in size and length. I'm exciting to see the bigger bigs playing this year.

 but we better be keeping the biggest of all big or this guy's going to be unhappy. Cheers big guys.
last year's was better.  Horford is that much better than anyone in our front court this coming year.

Tacko won't see the court.  Kanter's D has been average at its best.  Poirier is a complete unknown against NBA talent.  Timelord looks pretty with his blocks but his team D and help D are still a work in progress to be kind.  Theis was getting abused last year by more established players which was disheartening after him being such a pleasant surprise his first year.

Our front court is in a sorry state to start the year.  maybe by the end of the year Timelord improves, Kanter improves his D to better than average and Poirier surprises us (pleasantly) but I'm not going to get my hopes up.  Anyone pinning their hopes on any production from Tacko is fooling themselves.



 Respectfully disagree.

 What about Horfords game slipping fast?

 Bottom line Horford is an older tweener Centerwho is leaving Boston in large part so we won't have to play center anymore because he's too short too weak to hang in there all year nowadays.

 bains was very solid in year one but in year two he's slipping faster than Horford can't stay on the court kind of useless to me now.

 And as of right now we have four legit centers on the roster with legitimate surveys legitimate standing reach legitimate wingspan legitimate strength and weight.

 I believe in strength in numbers, and I believe that at least two of these guys are going to step up big-time..

 Kanter is legit. Timelord is here.


 

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2019, 02:41:52 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Don't know what you mean by "better." The team dynamic this year will be 100% different from last. Not even close.

I think the team will be better by a small amount as it will be a team instead of that thing that we watched last year. It was awful and you know it.

Horford, Tatum, Baynes, Morris:
49 wins 33 losses, beat Pacers got crushed by Bucks
8th in points allowed
4th in FG% allowed
21st in rebounds

I'm supposed to "care" about not having that line up anymore? They got run out of the gym and started pointing fingers. Good bye.

New line up:
Kanter, Poirier, Tatum, G. Williams, maybe Semi (RWilliams or Tacko will get minutes? Not many left after these guys)

Are they better than last year?

The team is better than last year. It's a team sport, I don't care who isn't here anymore and what they "used" to do. Send a text to Belichick, he'll tell you to "stop talking about people that aren't here."

Faster, younger, longer, bigger team that will get more rebounds and actually play underneath and go up against the drive. Sure, opponents will scheme against two big euro thumpers (Poirier/Kanter). I don't care the rest of our team will kick their butts.

Better than last year. Going to be a "Steven's team" again and I can't wait. Horford's in Philly now? Do you see the lineup they have there? He's going to need to score 26 points a game to keep them in it and when he plays the Celtics? He'll need 30.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2019, 04:36:36 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Don't know what you mean by "better." The team dynamic this year will be 100% different from last. Not even close.

I think the team will be better by a small amount as it will be a team instead of that thing that we watched last year. It was awful and you know it.

Horford, Tatum, Baynes, Morris:
49 wins 33 losses, beat Pacers got crushed by Bucks
8th in points allowed
4th in FG% allowed
21st in rebounds

I'm supposed to "care" about not having that line up anymore? They got run out of the gym and started pointing fingers. Good bye.

New line up:
Kanter, Poirier, Tatum, G. Williams, maybe Semi (RWilliams or Tacko will get minutes? Not many left after these guys)

Are they better than last year?

The team is better than last year. It's a team sport, I don't care who isn't here anymore and what they "used" to do. Send a text to Belichick, he'll tell you to "stop talking about people that aren't here."

Faster, younger, longer, bigger team that will get more rebounds and actually play underneath and go up against the drive. Sure, opponents will scheme against two big euro thumpers (Poirier/Kanter). I don't care the rest of our team will kick their butts.

Better than last year. Going to be a "Steven's team" again and I can't wait. Horford's in Philly now? Do you see the lineup they have there? He's going to need to score 26 points a game to keep them in it and when he plays the Celtics? He'll need 30.



 TP bro. Well said and don't get me started on Kyrie. Oh man.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2019, 08:32:51 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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This is cute, but also crazy.

Horford and Baynes were two of the best defensive bigs in the NBA the past couple of seasons.  Both were also excellent catch and shoot guys who had range out to the three point line. 

I like what Kanter brings, but he is no Horford replacement. 

Kanter's Defensive RPM (-1.46) ranked 69/70 among NBA centers and 445/480 among all NBA players:
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/9
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/12/sort/DRPM

His Offensive RPM (-0.32, 17th among centers) was much better, but still a negative - with that offensive RPM putting him around guys like Clint Capella and Steven Adams, hardly elite offensive players. 

His overall RPM (-1.78) ranks him 58th out of 70 NBA centers, which is not exactly encouraging. By comparison Al Horford overall RPM has ranked top 5 among all centers the past two seasons. 

There is really no way to sugar coat this - going from Horford to Kanter is a massive, massive downgrade.  But I am OK with that, because I would rather have a 27 year old Kanter for 2 years / $9.7M and cop that downgrade rather then cripple the team by giving a 33 year old Al Horford 4 years / $109M.  Considering the position Danny was put in, obtaining Kanter on the deal he got is about the best possible outcome that was available. 

as for Marcus Morris was arguably our most consistent producer last year.  He has his issues, but he consistently produced on both ends of the court last year, and I can't even imagine how much worse this team might have been if he wasn't on the roster.  He put up good scoring numbers on efficient shooting, and also played solid defense.   I like to show faith in our young guys as much as the next person, but Robert Williams has still got a hell of a lot to prove, and the other Williams has yet to play a single NBA game. So I think we should proceed with major caution before expecting either one of those guys to replace what Morris gave this team.

I'm OK with where we are for the short term given the circumstances, but I wouldn't expect that Danny is satisfied with the Roster as it is currently constructed.  I expect he will be trying desperately to look for trade opportunities throughout the season to upgrade the front court, and if he fails at that then I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to utilise that Memphis pick to draft a talented young big man who can grow with Tatum and Brown moving forward.

Re: This year's Big rotation better than last years
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2019, 08:38:51 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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On what planet?