ESPN’s player rankings are trash

[Moranis]

Ranking players sequentially is stupid.  I much prefer tier ranking like the Athletic does.  That being said there are 30 teams.  If you did a round robin draft, 101 would put White in the upper middle of the 4th round.  He probably should be a bit higher but he is not closer to the top 50 which would put him late 2nd round.  This is especially true since he's going to be 5th best on the Celts. 

Now they clearly aren't discounting defense when they have Smart at #59.  No way I'm taking Smart late 2nd round.  They have him ahead of Bane and Porzingis which is ridiculous.

This is important perspective.  There are 150 starters in the NBA.  Being top 100 means on average, you are one of the top 3 players on an average NBA team.  I don't know where White should be exactly, but would he be a top 3 player on the 15th best NBA team?  Maybe.

Another way to look at it is:

There are 5 positions in the NBA. So a top 100 divided by 5 means you are a top 20 player at your position.

I find that a more useful marker for who I expect to be "in or out" of top 100 lists.

When you look at it that way, I'm not sure White is a top 20 PG or a top 20 SG

[Who]

Ranking players sequentially is stupid.  I much prefer tier ranking like the Athletic does.  That being said there are 30 teams.  If you did a round robin draft, 101 would put White in the upper middle of the 4th round.  He probably should be a bit higher but he is not closer to the top 50 which would put him late 2nd round.  This is especially true since he's going to be 5th best on the Celts. 

Now they clearly aren't discounting defense when they have Smart at #59.  No way I'm taking Smart late 2nd round.  They have him ahead of Bane and Porzingis which is ridiculous.

This is important perspective.  There are 150 starters in the NBA.  Being top 100 means on average, you are one of the top 3 players on an average NBA team.  I don't know where White should be exactly, but would he be a top 3 player on the 15th best NBA team?  Maybe.

Another way to look at it is:

There are 5 positions in the NBA. So a top 100 divided by 5 means you are a top 20 player at your position.

I find that a more useful marker for who I expect to be "in or out" of top 100 lists.

When you look at it that way, I'm not sure White is a top 20 PG or a top 20 SG

I have D White in the 10-15 range at PG. In that 13-15 range along with CJ McCollum and Tyrese Maxey. I have Jrue in the next tier just ahead of them. I have Conley, VanVleet in the tier behind D White.

I am less sure where I would have D White at SG. I go back and forth. Sometimes I get really annoyed at his reluctance to shoot which is a pretty important part of being a shooting guard. It is in the name. You are the floor spacer. The release valve for when others collapse in double teams or help defense. When I am high on D White (when I love his glue guy stuff), I can keep him in that 10-15 range but when I get low on him at SG (lack of aggressiveness, shot making) I end up with him in that 20-25 range. So volatile & unsure where I rank him at SG.

[Moranis]

Ranking players sequentially is stupid.  I much prefer tier ranking like the Athletic does.  That being said there are 30 teams.  If you did a round robin draft, 101 would put White in the upper middle of the 4th round.  He probably should be a bit higher but he is not closer to the top 50 which would put him late 2nd round.  This is especially true since he's going to be 5th best on the Celts. 

Now they clearly aren't discounting defense when they have Smart at #59.  No way I'm taking Smart late 2nd round.  They have him ahead of Bane and Porzingis which is ridiculous.

This is important perspective.  There are 150 starters in the NBA.  Being top 100 means on average, you are one of the top 3 players on an average NBA team.  I don't know where White should be exactly, but would he be a top 3 player on the 15th best NBA team?  Maybe.

Another way to look at it is:

There are 5 positions in the NBA. So a top 100 divided by 5 means you are a top 20 player at your position.

I find that a more useful marker for who I expect to be "in or out" of top 100 lists.

When you look at it that way, I'm not sure White is a top 20 PG or a top 20 SG

I have D White in the 10-15 range at PG. In that 13-15 range along with CJ McCollum and Tyrese Maxey. I have Jrue in the next tier just ahead of them. I have Conley, VanVleet in the tier behind D White.

I am less sure where I would have D White at SG. I go back and forth. Sometimes I get really annoyed at his reluctance to shoot which is a pretty important part of being a shooting guard. It is in the name. You are the floor spacer. The release valve for when others collapse in double teams or help defense. When I am high on D White (when I love his glue guy stuff), I can keep him in that 10-15 range but when I get low on him at SG (lack of aggressiveness, shot making) I end up with him in that 20-25 range. So volatile & unsure where I rank him at SG.

Maxey is a lot better than White.  McCollum is closer, but probably better.  VanVleet is better.  Conley has probably aged himself behind White at this point.  It looks like you are missing some people or maybe not counting some guys at PG.  But I think these guys are all clearly better than White, in no particular order - Jrue, Lillard, Steph, Harden, Haliburton, Fox, Luka, LaMelo, Garland, Kyrie, Trae, Brunson, Murray so that is 13 right there.  That doesn't count for Ja Morant who I think most people call a PG or SGA who is often classified as a PG. If I'm projecting this year I think Cunningham and Giddey are going to be better than White.  Plus, Maxey and VanVleet. I think Smart is probably better still as well.  Then you have guys like CP3, Westbrook, Dinwiddie, and D-Lo Russell.  I just have a hard time putting White in the top 20 at PG and he is a better PG than SG.  He is a pretty much a classic combo guard and he is a very good one of those.

[Who]

Ranking players sequentially is stupid.  I much prefer tier ranking like the Athletic does.  That being said there are 30 teams.  If you did a round robin draft, 101 would put White in the upper middle of the 4th round.  He probably should be a bit higher but he is not closer to the top 50 which would put him late 2nd round.  This is especially true since he's going to be 5th best on the Celts. 

Now they clearly aren't discounting defense when they have Smart at #59.  No way I'm taking Smart late 2nd round.  They have him ahead of Bane and Porzingis which is ridiculous.

This is important perspective.  There are 150 starters in the NBA.  Being top 100 means on average, you are one of the top 3 players on an average NBA team.  I don't know where White should be exactly, but would he be a top 3 player on the 15th best NBA team?  Maybe.

Another way to look at it is:

There are 5 positions in the NBA. So a top 100 divided by 5 means you are a top 20 player at your position.

I find that a more useful marker for who I expect to be "in or out" of top 100 lists.

When you look at it that way, I'm not sure White is a top 20 PG or a top 20 SG

I have D White in the 10-15 range at PG. In that 13-15 range along with CJ McCollum and Tyrese Maxey. I have Jrue in the next tier just ahead of them. I have Conley, VanVleet in the tier behind D White.

I am less sure where I would have D White at SG. I go back and forth. Sometimes I get really annoyed at his reluctance to shoot which is a pretty important part of being a shooting guard. It is in the name. You are the floor spacer. The release valve for when others collapse in double teams or help defense. When I am high on D White (when I love his glue guy stuff), I can keep him in that 10-15 range but when I get low on him at SG (lack of aggressiveness, shot making) I end up with him in that 20-25 range. So volatile & unsure where I rank him at SG.

Maxey is a lot better than White.  McCollum is closer, but probably better.  VanVleet is better.  Conley has probably aged himself behind White at this point.  It looks like you are missing some people or maybe not counting some guys at PG.  But I think these guys are all clearly better than White, in no particular order - Jrue, Lillard, Steph, Harden, Haliburton, Fox, Luka, LaMelo, Garland, Kyrie, Trae, Brunson, Murray so that is 13 right there.  That doesn't count for Ja Morant who I think most people call a PG or SGA who is often classified as a PG. If I'm projecting this year I think Cunningham and Giddey are going to be better than White.  Plus, Maxey and VanVleet. I think Smart is probably better still as well.  Then you have guys like CP3, Westbrook, Dinwiddie, and D-Lo Russell.  I just have a hard time putting White in the top 20 at PG and he is a better PG than SG.  He is a pretty much a classic combo guard and he is a very good one of those.

Ah yeah, that is where we are apart. I don't have guys like Luka (SF), Harden (SG), SGA (SG), or LaMelo (SG) listed at PG.

I have the other 10 guys you have. I also have Beal just because that is where he will play this year for Phoenix. I have him in that tier just ahead of D White alongside guys like Kyrie & Jrue.

I forgot CP3 who is on the bench in my rankings now. He would be in that 10-15 range as well in that tier alongside D White, Maxey and McCollum. I also had Smart on the bench but he would be on that this tier also. So that would take us to 16 guys on my list with CP3 & Smart added to it. Beal already there. So I have D White in that #13-16 range.

I do have Giddey at PG. He could move ahead of D White this year if he continues to improve that 3 ball. I have him below White for the time being but I could see that change happening. I have Cade Cunningham listed as a wing. As a SG or SF.

I have Dinwiddie on the tier below the tier below D White's tier. So the first tier below D White would be Conley & VanVleet (small tier but better than the rest). Then Dinwiddie, the rookie Scoot Henderson, Giddey, Terry Rozier.

Not a fan of D'Angelo Russell. I have him another tier back on those other guys. Low to mid 20s at this stage. Westbrook, J Clarkson. Those guys are in the low to mid 20s in my rankings. Tyus Jones.

[Who]

I don't know about Klay Thompson at #41. I would have him in that 60-75 range.

[celticsclay]

How is luka 3 now? Any other guy in the top ten always has their team in the playoffs. Doncic couldn’t lead them to top ten. Maybe he  leads them this year, but he is already injured and doesn’t look in shape, 3 is ridiculous

[Celtics2021]

How is luka 3 now? Any other guy in the top ten always has their team in the playoffs. Doncic couldn’t lead them to top ten. Maybe he  leads them this year, but he is already injured and doesn’t look in shape, 3 is ridiculous

See the title of this thread.  The rankings are trash.

[Who]

I was surprised to see Smart and Porzingis ranked so close to one another again. I expected to see Porzingis in the 30s.

[ozgod]

I despise the man but I finally found something I agree with him on.

ClutchPoints
@ClutchPoints
Kyrie Irving reacts to ESPN ranking him the 34th best player in the NBA on IG 👀

"Who. TF. cares. I Never will. Rankings don't mean a [dang] thing in the league, especially not from ESPN or any of these other media platforms. Majority of the analysts are not credible sources in my eyes and I don't respect them or their opinions."

It all comes from our human need to stratify and rank things, to bring order out of chaos 

Think about it...what does it mean, that someone is 24 vs 23, or 21? But it's fun discussion for fans for sure 

[Who]

I despise the man but I finally found something I agree with him on.

ClutchPoints
@ClutchPoints
Kyrie Irving reacts to ESPN ranking him the 34th best player in the NBA on IG 👀

"Who. TF. cares. I Never will. Rankings don't mean a [dang] thing in the league, especially not from ESPN or any of these other media platforms. Majority of the analysts are not credible sources in my eyes and I don't respect them or their opinions."

I would've had him another 10 places lower.

44th sounds about right.

[Vermont Green]

Ranking players sequentially is stupid.  I much prefer tier ranking like the Athletic does.  That being said there are 30 teams.  If you did a round robin draft, 101 would put White in the upper middle of the 4th round.  He probably should be a bit higher but he is not closer to the top 50 which would put him late 2nd round.  This is especially true since he's going to be 5th best on the Celts. 

Now they clearly aren't discounting defense when they have Smart at #59.  No way I'm taking Smart late 2nd round.  They have him ahead of Bane and Porzingis which is ridiculous.

This is important perspective.  There are 150 starters in the NBA.  Being top 100 means on average, you are one of the top 3 players on an average NBA team.  I don't know where White should be exactly, but would he be a top 3 player on the 15th best NBA team?  Maybe.

Another way to look at it is:

There are 5 positions in the NBA. So a top 100 divided by 5 means you are a top 20 player at your position.

I find that a more useful marker for who I expect to be "in or out" of top 100 lists.

I like that, it distills it down to a more manageable number of players, 20 vs. 100, but it assumes that the 20th best PG has the same value as the 20th best Wing or PF.  White could be the 20th best PG but lower than 100 overall, for example.

As to White, the discussion on where he ranks as a PG is fair, I have not made a list but people seem to have him in the 20'ish range, which seems about right.  The thing with White is that he can give valuable minutes to a team as a SG also, he is a classic combo guard.  Other pure PGs may be better as a PG but can't offer that versatility.

I think that is the thing with Combo guards.  They are not as good at either position as some others but the versatility to play both is valuable.  It is true of other positions as well, such as swing/PF players.  I tend to like to see the primary players on a team playing their natural position, but the Celtics and other teams have been successful with multi-positional players in the mix, especially combo guard (Smart, White, Brogdon). 

I don't think a pure PG is all that important these days (and the Celtics did pretty well with Dennis Johnson as a starting combo guard back in the day), but if you start a combo guard at PG, there is some downside.  Holiday probably leans more natural PG than White, Smart, or Brogdon.  I think he is the guy to "have the ball in his hands", more so than White.  White is not a natural PG, he is a classic combo guard.  The result is he may not rank as high relative to all the natural PGs in the league, but how do you account for what he can give you as SG?