Bored Trade Idea

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I've seen various deals with Miles Turner coming back to Boston, but I've never seen one with Brogdon coming back as well. Presumably that's because people think that he can't be had.

I don't think that's true. While he made some noise this year, I don't think he was actually as good as people think. 44/31/90 shooting getting only 3 free throws a game. Assists looked good, but I think you could argue some of that was synergistic off of Sabonis. Since Oladipo came back, he hasn't played great either.

Hayward is a better player than Brogdon and can play off ball a little better. He's a better defender (Brogdon is a bit overrated there). Indiana connections make sense and Hayward's contract runs up the same year as Oladipo, which gives cap flexibility.

Now, let's be honest. Turner and Brogdon for just Hayward is a very unfair trade. All three are in the same range as players on the court. I think the Cs would need to send back Theis as well, who can do about 70% of what Turner does. I think Theis and Hayward are smart players who could help Oladipo blossom even more.

That's still not enough to seal a trade. It might pain me, but I'd be willing to include one of Robert Williams or Romeo Langford, the Memphis pick, and a future conditional first that likely becomes two seconds.

The Pacers start Holliday-Oladipo-Hayward-Warren-Sabonis with Langford, Memphis 1st, Theis, McDermott, Holliday off the bench. They sell Brogdon high and buy Hayward low in this deal.

The Celtics start Walker-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Turner with Brogdon, Williams, Williams, Ojeleye, Wanamaker, Green, Mid-level (for a swing-4), and Kanter.

It's not perfect, I admit. I'm just arguing that there might be a voice in Indiana that says, "Good trade for six reasons: 1) Buy Hayward low. 2) Sell Brogdon high, especially with injury concerns. 3) Make roster fit better together without Turner. 4) Bring Indiana boys home. 5) Cap flexibility in summer of 2021 to resign Oladipo and Hayward and go for another player. 6) Increase youth and draft capita for homegrown talent or future trades."

[hardlyyardley]

neat....love both Turner and Brogdon

[DefenseWinsChamps]

neat....love both Turner and Brogdon

I think he is massively overpaid. Is he the 20th best point guard in the NBA? Players like that aren't that different and normally you can get by without paying someone 21 million a year.

Still, he would sure up our second unit offensively. He's also big which fits our switching system.

I also like that we would have a different sizable contract on our roster over the next few seasons. I'm not sure if Ainge would go big-fish hunting, but if something came up that would fit, we'd have the contract without giving up other key players just for salary fodder.

[Csfan1984]

I think it depends on if you want to keep Hayward. I'm okay with the deal because of managing the salary and guarantees keeping talent.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I think it depends on if you want to keep Hayward. I'm okay with the deal because of managing the salary and guarantees keeping talent.

I do want to keep Hayward. I don't think I'd be happy if this deal was done.

[Jvalin]

@DefenseWinsChamps

TP for an interesting idea. Don't think the Pacers would do it though. If I were them, I would rather have Smart instead of Theis + Langford + picks.

Hayward + Smart for Turner + Brogdon

Not sure whether I'd pull the trigger, but it's a more balanced trade. The Pacers part ways with 2 core guys in Brogdon + Turner. The C's part ways with 2 core guys in Hayward + Smart.

I think he (Brogdon) is massively overpaid. Is he the 20th best point guard in the NBA? Players like that aren't that different and normally you can get by without paying someone 21 million a year.

I would argue that Brogdon is a top 15 PG in this league. Possibly even top 10. I like his contract a lot. Don't think he's overpaid. What worries me is his injury history.

[footey]

I like our team much better as is. I expect improvement from Rob Williams and Langford next year.  Hayward is very valuable for us.  I think Myles Turner has slid in value to be honest.  He hasn't improved this season much if at all.

Brogdon seems kind of redundant to Smart; obviously a better shooter, but they both are the same athletic wise and as play makers. Smart laps him both in terms of defense, intangibles, and contract value.

Huge pass on this.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I like it for the C's. Don't think the Pacers would do it though. If I were them, I would rather have Smart instead of Theis + Langford + picks.

Hayward + Smart for Turner + Brogdon

Not sure whether I'd pull the trigger, but it's a more balanced trade. The Pacers part ways with 2 core guys in Brogdon + Turner. The C's part ways with 2 core guys in Hayward + Smart.

I think he (Brogdon) is massively overpaid. Is he the 20th best point guard in the NBA? Players like that aren't that different and normally you can get by without paying someone 21 million a year.

I would argue that Brogdon is a top 15 PG in this league. Possibly even top 10. I like his contract a lot. Don't think he's overpaid. What worries me is his injury history.

I realize that they would want Smart, but the Cs don't include both. You are probably right that this is where the imagined talks break down.

I disagree on Brogdon: Paul-Lillard-Curry-Irving-Walker-Young-Doncic-Harden-Lowry-Murray gets you to 10. He might be in the group with Bledsoe-Dinwiddie-Hill-Smart-Rose-Schroeder-Booker-Russell-Morant-Lou Williams-Van Fleet. You could certainly argue for him above those guys. But Brogdon has more injury concerns than any player on that list, and he has the second biggest contract. That stuff matters.

Time has shown that players of that range signed for a middle-high tier contract are almost always bad contracts. Some are neutral contracts.

[blink]

I think this is a reasonable idea for us, I just don't think Indy deals both Turner and Brogdon for Hayward and filler.  I agree we would need to sweeten with either Smart or add Theis + more filler.  Unfortunately I don't like losing Smart or Theis.  I normally would say keep Smart no matter what, but Theis was playing exceptional basketball before the season got cancelled.  Could Theis get minutes with Turner on the floor at the same time?

(trading Hayward / Smart0
starters: Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Theis, Turner
bench:  Brogdon, Romeo, Wanamaker, Grant Williams, Robert Williams

or

(trading Hayward / Theis)
starters:  Kemba, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Turner
bench:  Brogdon, Romeo, Wannamaker, Grant Williams, Robert Williams

I think Brogdon and Turner would fit well with Brown, Tatum and the rest of the team though.  They are a closer fit timeline wise than Hayward, who at 30 isn't going to magically turn into the Gordon Hayward of 2016-2017 again.  Either way we still need a shooter off the bench, hopefully Romeo develops further.

[tstorey_97]

TP to DWC for a basketball post.

I think the trade(s) is reasonable. It made me think of our team next year should Hayward opt in.

Walker
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Theis

Smart and Whomever.

Injuries stand in the way as they do for all teams, but, that lineup has caused nothing but trouble for every top team the Celtics faced.

They never played together because of injuries, but, the defensive commitment and offensive talent by midway through the third quarter? The other team would start to fold up.

Too many guys who play really well at both ends. You can trap Kemba and then? You die. You can double Tatum, but then...?

It's easy to say on a home forum in a plague shortened season, but, just who among the top teams dominated the Celtics this year?

This year's team did not have a bench. Kanter popped for about 20 games.  Grant made some progress, but, really there wasn't much beyond the "big 6" listed above was there? Wanamaker finished the season with the best free throw percentage in the NBA, but, heez Wanamaker.

If trading Hayward will keep the starters the same and somehow help the bench? I'm game...it's just Kemba, Brown, Tatum and Hayward are all star level players with Smart as the 6th man? You need something to somehow make that group better and it isn't easy.

It is a "wing league" and Stevens has four wings that are all right up there. 

You have to have Theis because everyone can't make big money....where else are you going to get Theis for no money?

[Jvalin]

I like it for the C's. Don't think the Pacers would do it though. If I were them, I would rather have Smart instead of Theis + Langford + picks.

Hayward + Smart for Turner + Brogdon

Not sure whether I'd pull the trigger, but it's a more balanced trade. The Pacers part ways with 2 core guys in Brogdon + Turner. The C's part ways with 2 core guys in Hayward + Smart.

I think he (Brogdon) is massively overpaid. Is he the 20th best point guard in the NBA? Players like that aren't that different and normally you can get by without paying someone 21 million a year.

I would argue that Brogdon is a top 15 PG in this league. Possibly even top 10. I like his contract a lot. Don't think he's overpaid. What worries me is his injury history.

I realize that they would want Smart, but the Cs don't include both. You are probably right that this is where the imagined talks break down.

I disagree on Brogdon: Paul-Lillard-Curry-Irving-Walker-Young-Doncic-Harden-Lowry-Murray gets you to 10. He might be in the group with Bledsoe-Dinwiddie-Hill-Smart-Rose-Schroeder-Booker-Russell-Morant-Lou Williams-Van Fleet. You could certainly argue for him above those guys. But Brogdon has more injury concerns than any player on that list, and he has the second biggest contract. That stuff matters.

Time has shown that players of that range signed for a middle-high tier contract are almost always bad contracts. Some are neutral contracts.

Talent-wise, Young >>> Brogdon. It's not even close. Having said that, I have zero trust in Young to play winning basketball. Brogdon has been playing winning basketball since his very first season in the NBA. Remember this game? It was during Brogdon's rookie season.

Bucks @ Celtics, 3/28/2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CEUr463ZC4

He single-handedly won the game for the Bucks in the clutch.

The way I see it, Young is an entertainer. Brogdon is a heady player. He understands basketball at a high level and does all the little things that help his team win.

- Great basketball IQ
- Willing passer, excellent court vision
- Can play both guard positions
- Doesn't need the ball in his hands to maximize his effectiveness (which is rare for a PG)
- Very good shooter (50.5-42.6-92.8 shooting split last season, albeit next to Giannis)
- Above average defender. He's neither quick nor explosive, but his size/length allows him to guard multiple positions.

If the #1 incentive is to increase revenue and sell tickets, gimme Young over Brogdon. If the #1 incentive is to win games, gimme Brogdon over Young all day long.

I have Brogdon in the same group with Lowry and Murray. Both of them are paid max money. Brogdon is signed for way less than that (85 mil/4 years).

But Brogdon has more injury concerns than any player on that list

Yep, this is a legitimate concern. If it weren't for his injury history, I would most likely pull the trigger.

[slamtheking]

I like our team much better as is. I expect improvement from Rob Williams and Langford next year.  Hayward is very valuable for us.  I think Myles Turner has slid in value to be honest.  He hasn't improved this season much if at all.

Brogdon seems kind of redundant to Smart; obviously a better shooter, but they both are the same athletic wise and as play makers. Smart laps him both in terms of defense, intangibles, and contract value.

Huge pass on this.

right there with you.  don't like this deal in any of its variations.  C's are overpaying