Poll: Who should be the starting PF

[KG Living Legend]

Tacko should be the power forward with someone taller at Center!

 That's what I'm talking about! Creativity! I'm on the phone now hoping to find an 8 footer shoes off!

[Hoopvortex]

Judging by last year, at least, Theis played only as the lone big. It’s evident that the coaching staff considers him a “center” (I don’t know whether to put that word in quotes or not...).

Same thing with Timelord.

Grant Williams will get his shot and might even get rotation minutes in February when guys are out from injuries. But starting? Let’s keep things in perspective - or, better said, I’ll give him a 10% chance.

The trouble with these “who will start” polls, apart from leaving out obvious candidates like Tatum and Ojeleye, is that they never seem to say what the parameters are. Does it mean on opening night? Most games? The regular starter by Christmas, or by the All-Star break?

And how, in 2019, are we even defining “Power Forward”, since the league, and in particular, Boston’s head coach, aren’t using that term because they aren’t thinking that way anymore?

[Muzzy66]

I am absolutely mind blown that there are people here who would jump at the idea of trading Tatum for Siakam. 

Wow.

Siakam's Per-36 numbers over his first two seasons (at age 22/23):
11.6 points, 7.8 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.25 steals, 1.23 blocks, 1.4 turnovers, 3.9 fouls, 50% FG, 22% 3P%, 64% FT
13.0 PER

Tatum's Per-36 numbers over his first two seasons (at age 19/20):
17.33 points, 6.47 rebounds, 2.18 assists, 1.35 steals, 0.85 blocks, 1.74 turnovers, 2.49 fouls, 46% FG, 40% 3P%, 84% FT
15.2 PER

I've intentionally used Per-36 numbers to compensate for the fact that Siakam played far less minutes over his first two seasons, to help make the comparison more fair.  But even on a Per-36 basis Jayson Tatum clearly produced at a higher level then Siakam did over their first two seasons, despite being THREE years younger.

Even last season, when Siakam had his major breakout year, their numbers still weren't that far apart

Tatum (21 years old, 2nd NBA season, still learning): 15.7 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.1 APG, 1.1 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.5 TPG, 45% FG, 37% 3PT, 86% FT
Siakam (24 years old, 3rd NBA season, breakout year): 16.9 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 3.1 APG, 0.9 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.9 TPG, 55% FG, 37% 3PT, 79% FT

Now obviously nothing is ever guaranteed in the NBA and you never really know how things will turn out, but from what I can see it seems blatantly obvious that Tatum has a far higher ceiling then Siakam.  Siakam's breakout-year stats weren't THAT much better then Tatum's as a sophomore, and we haven't even SEEN Tatum's breakout year yet. It could well be this year. 

Trading Tatum for Siakam would be TITANIC mistake in my opinion, and one that I very strongly doubt Danny Ainge would even consider doing.  Siakam might be the better player right now and might win us more games this season (might: even that depends on how big a leap Tatum makes), but Tatum has a far higher ceiling and is a much better looking prospect and long term investment.

[Muzzy66]

And how, in 2019, are we even defining “Power Forward”, since the league, and in particular, Boston’s head coach, aren’t using that term because they aren’t thinking that way anymore?

I think it's a bit of a myth that the NBA isn't thinking that way any more. 

As much as people love to claim this is true, it's quite obviously NOT true when you look at how pretty much every team in the NBA is assembled.  Almost every team has a guy starting at PF who is bigger, stronger then the guy they have starting at SF.  Almost every team has a guy starting at PF who is a better rebounder and interior defender then the guy they have starting at SF.

In fact there clearly is a distinction between the PF spot and SF spot for example, because Brad would typically refer to PFs and Cs as "bigs" and SF/SG as "wings".

The line certainly can get blurred, especially when it comes to a player like Marcus Morris, who is pretty much just as capable playing a wing as he is playing a big.  But for the most part the distinction between those positions is still there.

And while you may well have seen moments last season here Brad may have gone small with say, Tatum and Morris up front - that's definitely more the exception then the rule, and would be something that would be done iin rare occasions just to match up differently or throw a different look out there.

[bellerephon]

The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

[wiley]

The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

edit:  as you can see I think swing refers to Marcus Morris type SF/PF.  and Wings includes shooting guards and small forwards....     noticed after I posted that I went by slightly different parameters...

In that case, I'd say our bigs are tilted towards centers too much and not enough towards power forwards.  Our Swings are lacking size, we only have one true swing (G. Williams).  Our wings are fine, but it's kind of crowded.  Ball handlers...we're all set. 



 

[RodyTur10]

I am absolutely mind blown that there are people here who would jump at the idea of trading Tatum for Siakam. 

Wow.

Siakam's Per-36 numbers over his first two seasons (at age 22/23):
11.6 points, 7.8 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.25 steals, 1.23 blocks, 1.4 turnovers, 3.9 fouls, 50% FG, 22% 3P%, 64% FT
13.0 PER

Tatum's Per-36 numbers over his first two seasons (at age 19/20):
17.33 points, 6.47 rebounds, 2.18 assists, 1.35 steals, 0.85 blocks, 1.74 turnovers, 2.49 fouls, 46% FG, 40% 3P%, 84% FT
15.2 PER

I've intentionally used Per-36 numbers to compensate for the fact that Siakam played far less minutes over his first two seasons, to help make the comparison more fair.  But even on a Per-36 basis Jayson Tatum clearly produced at a higher level then Siakam did over their first two seasons, despite being THREE years younger.

Even last season, when Siakam had his major breakout year, their numbers still weren't that far apart

Tatum (21 years old, 2nd NBA season, still learning): 15.7 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.1 APG, 1.1 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.5 TPG, 45% FG, 37% 3PT, 86% FT
Siakam (24 years old, 3rd NBA season, breakout year): 16.9 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 3.1 APG, 0.9 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.9 TPG, 55% FG, 37% 3PT, 79% FT

Now obviously nothing is ever guaranteed in the NBA and you never really know how things will turn out, but from what I can see it seems blatantly obvious that Tatum has a far higher ceiling then Siakam.  Siakam's breakout-year stats weren't THAT much better then Tatum's as a sophomore, and we haven't even SEEN Tatum's breakout year yet. It could well be this year. 

Trading Tatum for Siakam would be TITANIC mistake in my opinion, and one that I very strongly doubt Danny Ainge would even consider doing.  Siakam might be the better player right now and might win us more games this season (might: even that depends on how big a leap Tatum makes), but Tatum has a far higher ceiling and is a much better looking prospect and long term investment.

TP. I'm not the biggest Tatum-fan, but I was surprised as well that people were contemplating that Tatum for Siakam would be a reasonable deal. As it's clearly not.

It always happens, a team gets success and all the members of that team get credit for it and as a result become massively overrated.

Suddenly Leonard is regarded as the best player in the NBA (and he might well be), but one great playoff-run doesn't make him the new LeBron James. People forget how mediocre VanVleet was during the regular season, but after a few good playoff-games he has become a high commodity. Danny Green is seen as an excellent signing for the Lakers, because Toronto's success overshadows his poor overall numbers.

Let's wait and see what Pascal Siakam can do as primary offensive option with just Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka, Powell, VanVleet, Anunoby, Hollis-Jefferson and McCaw as companions. I think it's going to be ugly. 

[Who]

I am absolutely mind blown that there are people here who would jump at the idea of trading Tatum for Siakam. 

Wow.

Siakam's Per-36 numbers over his first two seasons (at age 22/23):
11.6 points, 7.8 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.25 steals, 1.23 blocks, 1.4 turnovers, 3.9 fouls, 50% FG, 22% 3P%, 64% FT
13.0 PER

Tatum's Per-36 numbers over his first two seasons (at age 19/20):
17.33 points, 6.47 rebounds, 2.18 assists, 1.35 steals, 0.85 blocks, 1.74 turnovers, 2.49 fouls, 46% FG, 40% 3P%, 84% FT
15.2 PER

I've intentionally used Per-36 numbers to compensate for the fact that Siakam played far less minutes over his first two seasons, to help make the comparison more fair.  But even on a Per-36 basis Jayson Tatum clearly produced at a higher level then Siakam did over their first two seasons, despite being THREE years younger.

Even last season, when Siakam had his major breakout year, their numbers still weren't that far apart

Tatum (21 years old, 2nd NBA season, still learning): 15.7 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.1 APG, 1.1 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.5 TPG, 45% FG, 37% 3PT, 86% FT
Siakam (24 years old, 3rd NBA season, breakout year): 16.9 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 3.1 APG, 0.9 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.9 TPG, 55% FG, 37% 3PT, 79% FT

Now obviously nothing is ever guaranteed in the NBA and you never really know how things will turn out, but from what I can see it seems blatantly obvious that Tatum has a far higher ceiling then Siakam.  Siakam's breakout-year stats weren't THAT much better then Tatum's as a sophomore, and we haven't even SEEN Tatum's breakout year yet. It could well be this year. 

Trading Tatum for Siakam would be TITANIC mistake in my opinion, and one that I very strongly doubt Danny Ainge would even consider doing.  Siakam might be the better player right now and might win us more games this season (might: even that depends on how big a leap Tatum makes), but Tatum has a far higher ceiling and is a much better looking prospect and long term investment.

TP. I'm not the biggest Tatum-fan, but I was surprised as well that people were contemplating that Tatum for Siakam would be a reasonable deal. As it's clearly not.

It always happens, a team gets success and all the members of that team get credit for it and as a result become massively overrated.

Suddenly Leonard is regarded as the best player in the NBA (and he might well be), but one great playoff-run doesn't make him the new LeBron James. People forget how mediocre VanVleet was during the regular season, but after a few good playoff-games he has become a high commodity. Danny Green is seen as an excellent signing for the Lakers, because Toronto's success overshadows his poor overall numbers.

Let's wait and see what Pascal Siakam can do as primary offensive option with just Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka, Powell, VanVleet, Anunoby, Hollis-Jefferson and McCaw as companions. I think it's going to be ugly.

A big part of Siakam's value is that he doesn't need to be the primary offensive option to have a big influence on the game (which is so valuable on winning teams in being able to play alongside other talented players). That is what would make him a better fit alongside guys like Kemba Walker (and Hayward & Jaylen).

Siakam is the type of player that improves good team into great teams. Tatum is the type of player (currently at least) that has diminishing returns on good teams.

Siakam is an All-League caliber defender. He is an ultra efficient scorer (TS% of 63% vs 55% for Tatum). Siakam doesn't need lots of touches or lots of shots. He plays off of others well whereas Tatum wants to go one-on-one.

[Th3M2n]

The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

[Vermont Green]

The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

[Th3M2n]

The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

Good point...tp

[indeedproceed]

........Semi Ojeleye


(ducks)

[mqtcelticsfan]

Breakout season for Timelord. He will be inconsistent but also put up big numbers like 20 points 15 boards 5 blocks 3 assists.

 
.

Why get Anthony Davis when your late first round pick who spent half of the last season in Maine can step in and be as good as him, right?

[Monkhouse]

I know this might be a hot take, but I would really like to see what Semi can do when given the starting role, considering he's still one of our best 1 on 1 defenders. This is all contingent upon how hard he is to move in the low post, improves his shot, and learns how to set better bone crushing screens.

[RockinRyA]

The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

Yes Ive been saying this.

Brad has classified the positions into 3 (or 4) Ballhandlers, Wings, (swings) and Bigs. Now what matters is what lineup is he using on the floor, is it a lineup with 2 bigs (Horford, Baynes), 2 Ballhandlers ( Irving, Smart), the dreaded three ballhandlers (IT, Bradley, Smart) etc.