Horford to start?

[Celtics2021]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

Because it puts Brown at SG and Tatum at SF which gives Boston an immense advantage.  It also keeps them fresher with less wear since they will be matched up against smaller players with less time in the paint.  Because Tatum is at his best at SF on both ends and he is Boston's best player.  So by maximizing Tatum, you maximize the team

I also agree with JJ and Moranis. The bolded part is really the key.

It also means that we never or hardly ever get the two big, which is BAD.  I know what people are trying to do given what the Celts have in terms of the reserves.  But the small lineup full time will be exposed.

White and Holiday are both 6’4”, Brown is 6’6”, Tatum is at least 6’8”, and Porzingis is 7’3”. How is that a small lineup?

Two wings, two guards, and one big.  That’s a small lineup regardless of how how they are.  I think the defense especially will suffer.

90% of teams in the NBA don’t use a “double big” starting lineup. Tatum is a modern day 4. Horford and Porzingis are modern 5’s.

but Denver,  Milwaukee, GS, and LAL do (or at least GS did, not sure this year).  And Harris in Philly isn't exactly small as PF.  Cleveland goes big as well. Miami, LAC, and maybe Phoenix are really the only good team that go small.

Tobias Harris is the same size as Jayson Tatum.  And that’s the point — Tatum is absolutely PF-sized these days.

[Vermont Green]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

Because it puts Brown at SG and Tatum at SF which gives Boston an immense advantage.  It also keeps them fresher with less wear since they will be matched up against smaller players with less time in the paint.  Because Tatum is at his best at SF on both ends and he is Boston's best player.  So by maximizing Tatum, you maximize the team

I also agree with JJ and Moranis. The bolded part is really the key.

It also means that we never or hardly ever get the two big, which is BAD.  I know what people are trying to do given what the Celts have in terms of the reserves.  But the small lineup full time will be exposed.

White and Holiday are both 6’4”, Brown is 6’6”, Tatum is at least 6’8”, and Porzingis is 7’3”. How is that a small lineup?

Two wings, two guards, and one big.  That’s a small lineup regardless of how how they are.  I think the defense especially will suffer.

90% of teams in the NBA don’t use a “double big” starting lineup. Tatum is a modern day 4. Horford and Porzingis are modern 5’s.

but Denver,  Milwaukee, GS, and LAL do (or at least GS did, not sure this year).  And Harris in Philly isn't exactly small as PF.  Cleveland goes big as well. Miami, LAC, and maybe Phoenix are really the only good team that go small.

Tobias Harris is the same size as Jayson Tatum.  And that’s the point — Tatum is absolutely PF-sized these days.

Last season, PHI went out and got PJ Tucker to be their PF so that Harris could play his natural position which is SF.  PJ Tucker is undersized as a PF but he is a PF and has been his entire career.  Grant Williams is smaller than Tatum but he plays PF, Grant is not a SF.  I am not suggesting that Tatum isn't a PF because he isn't big enough to be a PF.  He could be a fine PF if he wanted to be but he is the best SF in the entire NBA.

If I build my team, the first thing I do is take my best player and put him at his best position.  For the Celtics, the best player is Tatum and his best position is SF/Wing.  Then I build around that.  I want a ball handler (Holiday), I want some shooting and/or secondary scoring (Brown), I want a mobile scoring big, could be PF or C, (I am pretty happy with Porzingis) and then I want a defensive, blue-collar big, again, I don't care if it is a PF or a C (that is going to have to be Horford).  To me, that is the perfect team to put around Tatum.

Could Tatum be the "mobile scoring big/PF", sure, but why would you do that?  You only do that if you are forced to due to other roster limitations.  If you do that, it forces Porzingis to be the defensive big, not his natural role.  It forces Brown to forward over guard, which in my mind negates an advantage Brown has when playing SG (but otherwise, Brown at SF is fine, just not as good as Tatum at SF), then you have to add another guard to the line up (White), who doesn't give you anything you aren't already getting from other guards.

I am not trying to debate anyone in particular on this.  I recognize that I am in the minority, which is actually surprising to me.  This is just how I see it.

[RodyTur10]

The reasoning behind the objection to Tatum as a PF on paper is on defense right?

On offense I think Tatum has a considerable speed advantage when defended by traditional (big) PF's which is more favorable than the general size advantage against other SF's. The last two years units have shined with Tatum as instigator on offense as a PF with one big.

But on defense we never let Tatum guard dangerous PF's. That's Brown's job.
So I don't see the issue here. And with both White and Tatum you have enough rim protection in addition to Porzingis.

[PAOBoston]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

Because it puts Brown at SG and Tatum at SF which gives Boston an immense advantage.  It also keeps them fresher with less wear since they will be matched up against smaller players with less time in the paint.  Because Tatum is at his best at SF on both ends and he is Boston's best player.  So by maximizing Tatum, you maximize the team

I also agree with JJ and Moranis. The bolded part is really the key.

It also means that we never or hardly ever get the two big, which is BAD.  I know what people are trying to do given what the Celts have in terms of the reserves.  But the small lineup full time will be exposed.

White and Holiday are both 6’4”, Brown is 6’6”, Tatum is at least 6’8”, and Porzingis is 7’3”. How is that a small lineup?

Two wings, two guards, and one big.  That’s a small lineup regardless of how how they are.  I think the defense especially will suffer.

90% of teams in the NBA don’t use a “double big” starting lineup. Tatum is a modern day 4. Horford and Porzingis are modern 5’s.

but Denver,  Milwaukee, GS, and LAL do (or at least GS did, not sure this year).  And Harris in Philly isn't exactly small as PF.  Cleveland goes big as well. Miami, LAC, and maybe Phoenix are really the only good team that go small.

Tobias Harris is the same size as Jayson Tatum.  And that’s the point — Tatum is absolutely PF-sized these days.

Last season, PHI went out and got PJ Tucker to be their PF so that Harris could play his natural position which is SF.  PJ Tucker is undersized as a PF but he is a PF and has been his entire career.  Grant Williams is smaller than Tatum but he plays PF, Grant is not a SF.  I am not suggesting that Tatum isn't a PF because he isn't big enough to be a PF.  He could be a fine PF if he wanted to be but he is the best SF in the entire NBA.

If I build my team, the first thing I do is take my best player and put him at his best position.  For the Celtics, the best player is Tatum and his best position is SF/Wing.  Then I build around that.  I want a ball handler (Holiday), I want some shooting and/or secondary scoring (Brown), I want a mobile scoring big, could be PF or C, (I am pretty happy with Porzingis) and then I want a defensive, blue-collar big, again, I don't care if it is a PF or a C (that is going to have to be Horford).  To me, that is the perfect team to put around Tatum.

Could Tatum be the "mobile scoring big/PF", sure, but why would you do that?  You only do that if you are forced to due to other roster limitations.  If you do that, it forces Porzingis to be the defensive big, not his natural role.  It forces Brown to forward over guard, which in my mind negates an advantage Brown has when playing SG (but otherwise, Brown at SF is fine, just not as good as Tatum at SF), then you have to add another guard to the line up (White), who doesn't give you anything you aren't already getting from other guards.

I am not trying to debate anyone in particular on this.  I recognize that I am in the minority, which is actually surprising to me.  This is just how I see it.

This. I agree 100%. You play your best player at his best position. Tatum is a wing. He is not a big. It’s fine in small spurts in small ball lineups during games but not sure why you’d want him get the extra beating against bigger players. Basketball is still a game of size and teams that have employed double bigs lineups have down well in the playoffs (and finals) for a few years now.

[Goldstar88]

90% of teams in the NBA don’t use a “double big” starting lineup. Tatum is a modern day 4. Horford and Porzingis are modern 5’s.

I am not so sure about this.  Didn't the GM just vote that Tatum was the best SF in the league?  Not the best modern day PF (or 4) but SF.  Giannis was voted the best PF.  But it is Tatum who is a modern day PF?  I don't believe this is true nor do I believe that only 10% of NBA teams play "2-big" line up.  I will note that Durant did get 1 vote for best PF (probably the MIL GM) but Tatum did not get even 1 vote as a PF.  SF is Tatum's natural position and he is the best SF in the league.  Why would you not play him as a SF?

To me, you can make a parallel to football.  Sometimes teams play with 2 TEs.  Usually 1 TE is the core line up.  Sometimes No TEs but 5 receivers.  But TEs are still TEs and WRs are still WRs.  Just because a basketball team decides to play with an extra wing does not mean that that wing is a PF.

Let’s look at the other teams in the conference. The majority have large wing players (which is what Tatum is) at the 4.


Nets- Cam Johnson 6’8”

76ers- PJ Tucker 6’5” and Tobias Harris 6’7”

Knicks- Julius Randle 6’8”

Raptors- Pascal Siakam 6’8”

Bulls- Patrick Williams 6’7”

Pistons- Isiah Stewart 6’8”

Cavs- Mobley is 6’11” but only 215lbs

Pacers- Obi Toppin 6’9”

Hawks- Sadiq Bay 6’7”

Hornets- PJ Washington 6’7”

Heat- Jimmy Butler 6’6”

Magic- Paolo Banchero 6’10

Wizards- Kyle Kuzma 6’9”

[Goldstar88]

Dup

[Moranis]

A lot of those aren't correct.  Johnson or Okongwu start in Atlanta as an example.  Both bigger than Bey who starts at SF (so a big SF as well).  The Nets have essentially been starting Simmons at PF so far this year (Dinwiddie and Bridges also starting with Johnson and Claxton). So they are huge at basically every position.  See if they keep doing that or if they move Dinwiddie to bench and put Ben at PG. In Detroit Stewaet is their center and he is shorter but he is a massive man. 6'10" Bagley is their PF.

And it more than just height to being a big.  I mean Durant is one of the tallest players in the sport, but no one would call him a big.

[tonydelk]

I think the team likes the double big linkeup but like most of us we just don't see the depth to do it.  If Rob was still here it would be a much easier decision.  The issue is DWhite has earned the minutes and Jrue is a starter not a bench player.  It's a tough position to be in and I'm sure every other team would like to have the top 6-8 that we do. 

[No Nickname]

A lot of those aren't correct.  Johnson or Okongwu start in Atlanta as an example.  Both bigger than Bey who starts at SF (so a big SF as well).  The Nets have essentially been starting Simmons at PF so far this year (Dinwiddie and Bridges also starting with Johnson and Claxton). So they are huge at basically every position.  See if they keep doing that or if they move Dinwiddie to bench and put Ben at PG. In Detroit Stewaet is their center and he is shorter but he is a massive man. 6'10" Bagley is their PF.

And it more than just height to being a big.  I mean Durant is one of the tallest players in the sport, but no one would call him a big.

Even though this trade works on the Trade Machine I seem to recall that Pritchard's new deal changes the amount of salary we can take back in a trade.

Anyway, let's say around the end of December that Gallinari is looking pretty good in his return from injury.  Wouldn't this trade help fix our need for a backup big?

Or would we then lament the lack of point guard depth?

We could even throw in one of our million 2nd rounders.

https://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yvtozdlj

[droopdog7]

90% of teams in the NBA don’t use a “double big” starting lineup. Tatum is a modern day 4. Horford and Porzingis are modern 5’s.

I am not so sure about this.  Didn't the GM just vote that Tatum was the best SF in the league?  Not the best modern day PF (or 4) but SF.  Giannis was voted the best PF.  But it is Tatum who is a modern day PF?  I don't believe this is true nor do I believe that only 10% of NBA teams play "2-big" line up.  I will note that Durant did get 1 vote for best PF (probably the MIL GM) but Tatum did not get even 1 vote as a PF.  SF is Tatum's natural position and he is the best SF in the league.  Why would you not play him as a SF?

To me, you can make a parallel to football.  Sometimes teams play with 2 TEs.  Usually 1 TE is the core line up.  Sometimes No TEs but 5 receivers.  But TEs are still TEs and WRs are still WRs.  Just because a basketball team decides to play with an extra wing does not mean that that wing is a PF.

Let’s look at the other teams in the conference. The majority have large wing players (which is what Tatum is) at the 4.


Nets- Cam Johnson 6’8”

76ers- PJ Tucker 6’5” and Tobias Harris 6’7”

Knicks- Julius Randle 6’8”

Raptors- Pascal Siakam 6’8”

Bulls- Patrick Williams 6’7”

Pistons- Isiah Stewart 6’8”

Cavs- Mobley is 6’11” but only 215lbs

Pacers- Obi Toppin 6’9”

Hawks- Sadiq Bay 6’7”

Hornets- PJ Washington 6’7”

Heat- Jimmy Butler 6’6”

Magic- Paolo Banchero 6’10

Wizards- Kyle Kuzma 6’9”

Are you SERIOUSLY only looking at height? 

Anyway, we'll get our answer soon enough.  I agree with what a lot of people see in terms of the obvious.  On paper, Al is our sixth best starter.  On paper, White and Holiday are two outstanding defenders.  On paper, PP (our primary back up guard) is better than any back up big or small forward we have on the team.  So the choice to start White instead of Al seems obvious, on paper.

So, after saying all this, AL is the starter when he plays, then everyone shall have their answer.  If, despite all the evidence that has been presented, we get two bigs to start, it should be plainly obvious that some people are missing something. 

That something is that playing a lineup that the Jays in positions where they have physical advantages, a lineup up that has a stronger backline defense, is better than the alternative. 

[droopdog7]

The reasoning behind the objection to Tatum as a PF on paper is on defense right?

On offense I think Tatum has a considerable speed advantage when defended by traditional (big) PF's which is more favorable than the general size advantage against other SF's. The last two years units have shined with Tatum as instigator on offense as a PF with one big.

But on defense we never let Tatum guard dangerous PF's. That's Brown's job.
So I don't see the issue here. And with both White and Tatum you have enough rim protection in addition to Porzingis.

It's defense, but not defense just for JT.  It's team defense.  No matter how good white and holiday are, it's much better having a strong backline defense for at least part of the time.

[Goldstar88]

A lot of those aren't correct.  Johnson or Okongwu start in Atlanta as an example.  Both bigger than Bey who starts at SF (so a big SF as well).  The Nets have essentially been starting Simmons at PF so far this year (Dinwiddie and Bridges also starting with Johnson and Claxton). So they are huge at basically every position.  See if they keep doing that or if they move Dinwiddie to bench and put Ben at PG. In Detroit Stewaet is their center and he is shorter but he is a massive man. 6'10" Bagley is their PF.

And it more than just height to being a big.  I mean Durant is one of the tallest players in the sport, but no one would call him a big.

What I posted is what ESPN has listed. Take it up with them. Looks like Durant will be playing PF this year. Further proving the point.

[Moranis]

A lot of those aren't correct.  Johnson or Okongwu start in Atlanta as an example.  Both bigger than Bey who starts at SF (so a big SF as well).  The Nets have essentially been starting Simmons at PF so far this year (Dinwiddie and Bridges also starting with Johnson and Claxton). So they are huge at basically every position.  See if they keep doing that or if they move Dinwiddie to bench and put Ben at PG. In Detroit Stewaet is their center and he is shorter but he is a massive man. 6'10" Bagley is their PF.

And it more than just height to being a big.  I mean Durant is one of the tallest players in the sport, but no one would call him a big.

What I posted is what ESPN has listed. Take it up with them. Looks like Durant will be playing PF this year. Further proving the point.

Durant is 7 feet tall. Since height is what you use to determine if a player is a big, Phoenix is clearly a 2 big lineup.

And ESPN has both Horford and Porzingis starting for Boston. So if you are going by them, then Boston is starting 2 bigs.

[Goldstar88]

A lot of those aren't correct.  Johnson or Okongwu start in Atlanta as an example.  Both bigger than Bey who starts at SF (so a big SF as well).  The Nets have essentially been starting Simmons at PF so far this year (Dinwiddie and Bridges also starting with Johnson and Claxton). So they are huge at basically every position.  See if they keep doing that or if they move Dinwiddie to bench and put Ben at PG. In Detroit Stewaet is their center and he is shorter but he is a massive man. 6'10" Bagley is their PF.

And it more than just height to being a big.  I mean Durant is one of the tallest players in the sport, but no one would call him a big.

What I posted is what ESPN has listed. Take it up with them. Looks like Durant will be playing PF this year. Further proving the point.

Durant is 7 feet tall. Since height is what you use to determine if a player is a big, Phoenix is clearly a 2 big lineup.

And ESPN has both Horford and Porzingis starting for Boston. So if you are going by them, then Boston is starting 2 bigs.

Right, Durant is a big wing. I never said that Horford isn’t going to start, said that the team would be better off having him off the bench.

[droopdog7]

A lot of those aren't correct.  Johnson or Okongwu start in Atlanta as an example.  Both bigger than Bey who starts at SF (so a big SF as well).  The Nets have essentially been starting Simmons at PF so far this year (Dinwiddie and Bridges also starting with Johnson and Claxton). So they are huge at basically every position.  See if they keep doing that or if they move Dinwiddie to bench and put Ben at PG. In Detroit Stewaet is their center and he is shorter but he is a massive man. 6'10" Bagley is their PF.

And it more than just height to being a big.  I mean Durant is one of the tallest players in the sport, but no one would call him a big.

What I posted is what ESPN has listed. Take it up with them. Looks like Durant will be playing PF this year. Further proving the point.

Durant is 7 feet tall. Since height is what you use to determine if a player is a big, Phoenix is clearly a 2 big lineup.

And ESPN has both Horford and Porzingis starting for Boston. So if you are going by them, then Boston is starting 2 bigs.

Right, Durant is a big wing. I never said that Horford isn’t going to start, said that the team would be better off having him off the bench.

Do you think, with all the "obvious" reasons people are stating for Al not to start would also be obvious to the coach?  If Al starts, it isn't because the coach went against something that was better.  It's because people thinking that Al should not start are missing something.  And that something is that starting Al is best.