Horford to start?

[liam]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

Well said!

[Moranis]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

Because it puts Brown at SG and Tatum at SF which gives Boston an immense advantage.  It also keeps them fresher with less wear since they will be matched up against smaller players with less time in the paint.  Because Tatum is at his best at SF on both ends and he is Boston's best player.  So by maximizing Tatum, you maximize the team

[droopdog7]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

People have his all wrong.  Al should most definitely start.  I think it's obvious, though sure, there are downsides given the depth.  But a lineup that starts white is simply too small. Al MUST start.

[GetLucky]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

People have his all wrong.  Al should most definitely start.  I think it's obvious, though sure, there are downsides given the depth.  But a lineup that starts white is simply too small. Al MUST start.

White 6'4"
Holiday 6'5"
Brown 6'6"
Tatum 6'8"
Porzingis 7'3"

strikes me as plenty big. Keep in mind these guys all have + wingspans, and most NBA players were listed at 1-2" taller than their actual height until recently. For example, Dwight Howard is 6'10" under the most recent height rules, and Timelord and Al are both 6'9".

EDIT:
More heights
Embiid 7'0"
Jokic 6'11"
Anthony Davis 6'10"

[Goldstar88]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

People have his all wrong.  Al should most definitely start.  I think it's obvious, though sure, there are downsides given the depth.  But a lineup that starts white is simply too small. Al MUST start.

White 6'4"
Holiday 6'5"
Brown 6'6"
Tatum 6'8"
Porzingis 7'3"

strikes me as plenty big. Keep in mind these guys all have + wingspans, and most NBA players were listed at 1-2" taller than their actual height until recently. For example, Dwight Howard is 6'10" under the most recent height rules, and Timelord and Al are both 6'9".

EDIT:
More heights
Embiid 7'0"
Jokic 6'11"
Anthony Davis 6'10"

I thought Tatum was at least 6’11” at this point… possibly still growing, too.

[droopdog7]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

People have his all wrong.  Al should most definitely start.  I think it's obvious, though sure, there are downsides given the depth.  But a lineup that starts white is simply too small. Al MUST start.

White 6'4"
Holiday 6'5"
Brown 6'6"
Tatum 6'8"
Porzingis 7'3"

strikes me as plenty big. Keep in mind these guys all have + wingspans, and most NBA players were listed at 1-2" taller than their actual height until recently. For example, Dwight Howard is 6'10" under the most recent height rules, and Timelord and Al are both 6'9".

EDIT:
More heights
Embiid 7'0"
Jokic 6'11"
Anthony Davis 6'10"

It's not just height.  It's position and skill.  Tatum at the four is not a rim protector.  Al, who may actually be shorter, is.  NBA guards and super skilled and can generally get by pretty much anyone.  What stops them isn't just the guy in front of them, but also the back line near the rim.  Without a back line, there could be a layup line to the rim.

[Celtics2021]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

People have his all wrong.  Al should most definitely start.  I think it's obvious, though sure, there are downsides given the depth.  But a lineup that starts white is simply too small. Al MUST start.

White 6'4"
Holiday 6'5"
Brown 6'6"
Tatum 6'8"
Porzingis 7'3"

strikes me as plenty big. Keep in mind these guys all have + wingspans, and most NBA players were listed at 1-2" taller than their actual height until recently. For example, Dwight Howard is 6'10" under the most recent height rules, and Timelord and Al are both 6'9".

EDIT:
More heights
Embiid 7'0"
Jokic 6'11"
Anthony Davis 6'10"

It's not just height.  It's position and skill.  Tatum at the four is not a rim protector.  Al, who may actually be shorter, is.  NBA guards and super skilled and can generally get by pretty much anyone.  What stops them isn't just the guy in front of them, but also the back line near the rim.  Without a back line, there could be a layup line to the rim.

What do you think Porzingis’ job on defense will be?  That’s always been his forte — he’s a far superior shot blocker at the rim to Al.  We aren’t going to suffer for only having one such player in the starting lineup.

[droopdog7]

I honestly can't think of a single good reason to start Horford over Derrick White.

White is younger and better at everything on offense except for maybe the corner three. He's second team All-Defense and even a better rim protector than Horford at this point. He had the best plus-minus in the Eastern Conference.

If we have Horford come off the bench, that means there's always a strong big coming in for Porzingis. It means more minutes for Pritchard and fewer for Kornet, which is a win.

Also, if we start Horford, that means we'll be going back and forth between a big lineup and a small lineup every time Al or Porzingis have to sit during a back-to-back.

I mean, showing respect for a trusted veteran is the best excuse I can come up with for starting Horford, but the Celtics are simply a better team when Derrick White is on the floor.

People have his all wrong.  Al should most definitely start.  I think it's obvious, though sure, there are downsides given the depth.  But a lineup that starts white is simply too small. Al MUST start.

White 6'4"
Holiday 6'5"
Brown 6'6"
Tatum 6'8"
Porzingis 7'3"

strikes me as plenty big. Keep in mind these guys all have + wingspans, and most NBA players were listed at 1-2" taller than their actual height until recently. For example, Dwight Howard is 6'10" under the most recent height rules, and Timelord and Al are both 6'9".

EDIT:
More heights
Embiid 7'0"
Jokic 6'11"
Anthony Davis 6'10"

It's not just height.  It's position and skill.  Tatum at the four is not a rim protector.  Al, who may actually be shorter, is.  NBA guards and super skilled and can generally get by pretty much anyone.  What stops them isn't just the guy in front of them, but also the back line near the rim.  Without a back line, there could be a layup line to the rim.

What do you think Porzingis’ job on defense will be?  That’s always been his forte — he’s a far superior shot blocker at the rim to Al.  We aren’t going to suffer for only having one such player in the starting lineup.

That's one, but two is better.  Anyway, we can go back and forth all day long, but we'll find out soon.  And I am betting on the two big starting line up.

[cman88]

our best 5 man lineup talent wise is

holiday/white/brown/tatum/KP

also starting horford screws up our rotation of bigs IMO. id rather have Horford coming on for KP

[Vermont Green]

The best top line up that we have had in the last few season is (Note:  Based on the most used line up for the season in terms of minutes):

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford
RWilliams

In 2021/22, this top line up (the most used line up) was on the court for 34 games, put up a staggering +218.  A net rating of 24.6, look at whatever stat you want, this was the best line up.

The line up of:

Smart
White
Brown
Tatum
Horford

in 2022/23 was the top line up and used in 35 games for a +103, NRTG of 12.2.  Not bad, but not nearly as good as the 2021/22 2-big line up.  I think the only reason they didn't go back to Horford and Williams in 2022/23 was because Williams was injured so much, particularly at the start of the season.  Williams was never the player in 2022/23 that he was in 2021/22.

For this season, we have Holiday and Porzingis instead of Smart and RWilliams.   So which way do you go?  More like 2021/22 or more like 2022/23?  We can easily do either, at least to start the season as everyone is healthy.

I only real argument in my mind against starting Horford and Porzingis is that our depth does not support this as well as starting White and bringing Horford off the bench (and I am assuming that Holiday starts in any case).  I am less concerned about who starts than what line up is the most used (although generally it is best if this is the same).

I say go big or go home, the Horford/Porzingis should be the primary, most used, starting, finishing line up.

[Big333223]

I think it Horford starts, it's to allow the veteran the rhythm of starting but he gets pulled early so he can still play back 5. Horford would start and White would come off the bench but Horford would play around 22-24 minutes and White would play around 32 minutes.

I don't think that's the best way to do things but I think that might be what happens.

[Celtics2021]

The best top line up that we have had in the last few season is (Note:  Based on the most used line up for the season in terms of minutes):

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford
RWilliams

In 2021/22, this top line up (the most used line up) was on the court for 34 games, put up a staggering +218.  A net rating of 24.6, look at whatever stat you want, this was the best line up.

The line up of:

Smart
White
Brown
Tatum
Horford

in 2022/23 was the top line up and used in 35 games for a +103, NRTG of 12.2.  Not bad, but not nearly as good as the 2021/22 2-big line up.  I think the only reason they didn't go back to Horford and Williams in 2022/23 was because Williams was injured so much, particularly at the start of the season.  Williams was never the player in 2022/23 that he was in 2021/22.

For this season, we have Holiday and Porzingis instead of Smart and RWilliams.   So which way do you go?  More like 2021/22 or more like 2022/23?  We can easily do either, at least to start the season as everyone is healthy.

I only real argument in my mind against starting Horford and Porzingis is that our depth does not support this as well as starting White and bringing Horford off the bench (and I am assuming that Holiday starts in any case).  I am less concerned about who starts than what line up is the most used (although generally it is best if this is the same).

I say go big or go home, the Horford/Porzingis should be the primary, most used, starting, finishing line up.

I think there’s a really big assumption on your part that Porzingis will mesh the same way, especially defensively, with Horford as a healthy Rob did, and also that Horford will perform similarly to how he did two years ago, now 37 years old.  I expect they’ll play together in stretches (if Al plays 24-26 minutes a game and Porzingis 30-32 there will necessarily be some overlap, and certainly Al could move into the lineup on nights when someone else is our), but Al is no longer one of our five best players, and our top 5 look like they should compliment each other very well.

Also, if Al is going to take off on one night of back to backs (and he seems to be the only player that rule is skates to apply to all year), then it also makes sense to bring him from the bench so the starting lineup has more continuity from night to night.

[Vermont Green]

The best top line up that we have had in the last few season is (Note:  Based on the most used line up for the season in terms of minutes):

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford
RWilliams

In 2021/22, this top line up (the most used line up) was on the court for 34 games, put up a staggering +218.  A net rating of 24.6, look at whatever stat you want, this was the best line up.

The line up of:

Smart
White
Brown
Tatum
Horford

in 2022/23 was the top line up and used in 35 games for a +103, NRTG of 12.2.  Not bad, but not nearly as good as the 2021/22 2-big line up.  I think the only reason they didn't go back to Horford and Williams in 2022/23 was because Williams was injured so much, particularly at the start of the season.  Williams was never the player in 2022/23 that he was in 2021/22.

For this season, we have Holiday and Porzingis instead of Smart and RWilliams.   So which way do you go?  More like 2021/22 or more like 2022/23?  We can easily do either, at least to start the season as everyone is healthy.

I only real argument in my mind against starting Horford and Porzingis is that our depth does not support this as well as starting White and bringing Horford off the bench (and I am assuming that Holiday starts in any case).  I am less concerned about who starts than what line up is the most used (although generally it is best if this is the same).

I say go big or go home, the Horford/Porzingis should be the primary, most used, starting, finishing line up.

I think there’s a really big assumption on your part that Porzingis will mesh the same way, especially defensively, with Horford as a healthy Rob did, and also that Horford will perform similarly to how he did two years ago, now 37 years old.  I expect they’ll play together in stretches (if Al plays 24-26 minutes a game and Porzingis 30-32 there will necessarily be some overlap, and certainly Al could move into the lineup on nights when someone else is our), but Al is no longer one of our five best players, and our top 5 look like they should compliment each other very well.

Also, if Al is going to take off on one night of back to backs (and he seems to be the only player that rule is skates to apply to all year), then it also makes sense to bring him from the bench so the starting lineup has more continuity from night to night.

I don't think Porzingis is going to mesh in the same way as RWill but I still think he will mesh just fine.  And it is fair to be concerned about Horford not playing back to backs and his inevitable decline in general.  I just feel that the big line up will be our best line up and I would like to see that line up on the court the most minutes.

It is hard to say that White is better than Horford so the team will be better with White over Horford, it just isn't that simple or straight forward in my view.  You are taking a big off the floor and putting another guard on the floor.  A lot changes with that.  I am going to look forward to checking the line up stats on NBA.com as the season progresses.  I think both of these line ups or 5-man units are going to be strong, both should do well.  But if Horford does decline more than I think, who knows.  White has a way of impacting +/- and NRTG.  It is a luxury that this roster will have the versatility to play big or small and be really strong in either case.

As to Horford off the bench, I actually agree that it would be a great role for him, makes it easier to manage his minutes.  It is what I was expecting before we traded RWilliams.  Again, starting and most used may not need to be the same, even if they usually are.  I think back on some of the recent GSW teams where Looney started.  When the rest of the team is stacked, that 5th starter doesn't have to be all that good.  So in my mind, if you decide to bring Horford off the bench, I still prefer to "start" another big but we don't have that player on the roster right now.

[Phantom255x]

Horford needs to come off the bench. I think a lot of people forget, but last season they load managed him especially on back-to-back games, and despite that he still looked off in the postseason and at times looked like he was laboring. Maybe he was dealing with an injury, but at the same time Horford is getting up there with age. I think he should primarily come off the bench. He can still occasionally start some games when guys are hurt, or resting, but not often.

White-Holiday-Jaylen-Tatum-Porzingis, Horford/Pritchard/Hauser/Walsh off the bench, and any mix of Gabriel/Brissett/Kornet/Svi behind them.

[Vermont Green]

I was curious to look back at GSW in the playoffs in 2021/22.  Their top 3 most used line ups all included the same 4 core players:

Curry
Thompson
Wiggins
Green

The 5th player was by order of most used:

Looney    +18.7 NRTG  (172 min)
Poole      +13.8 NRTG  (104 min)
Porter      +4.7 NRTG   (72 min)

You could argue that Looney was not as good as either Poole or Porter but the team did well with him on the court.  All these units were pretty good for them, based more on the other 4 players.  This is why I think the Celtics will be fine with a top 4 of Holiday, Brown, Tatum, Porzingis.  Whether you put Horford or White or even Brissett out there with them, the team is going to be good.

For contrast, that same playoff run but the Celtics, their "big 4" was:

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford

The top 3 units were these 4 plus:

Grant      -7.0 NRTG   (161 min)
RWill      +3.5 NTRG   (138 min)
White     -8.2 NTRG    (121 min)

In the finals, these same units were top 3 for the Celtics:

RWill    +13.3 NRTG
White   -25.3 NRTG
Grant   -19.0 NRTG

For Golden State:

Looney   +20.9 NRTG
Porter      -9.7 NRTG
Poole       -4.5 NRTG

White and Poole would be higher ranked players than RWill and Looney but the teams did much better with the extra guard out and a big in.  Past performance is not an indication of future results of course but this is what I am looking at when I conclude that Horford in over White will produce better results.  As I said though, I feel the core 4 are so good that the team will be good almost no matter who you put out there with them, much like GSW in that playoff run (Note:  I looked at playoffs because Green missed about half the season for GSW).