Where are we with the "second apron"?

[Roy H.]

According to Spotrac, we've got 13 players under contract, although not all of those contracts are guaranteed.

Then, we signed Lamar Stevens to a training camp contract only.

Similarly, we've reportedly signed Wenyen Gabriel to a training camp contract only.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/

Committed salaries:  $181,460,777

+ Stevens: $2,019,706

+ Gabriel:  $2,019,706

Total:  $185,500,189

Second Apron:  $182,794,000

And, as I understand it, that's not even including Jrue's $4.4 million in unlikely incentives.

Even with 14 players, I think we're over that second apron. 

[Donoghus]

Yeah, sounds that way. Ozgod posted this yesterday.

Well right now we have $1.333m of space before we hit the second apron, assuming that Blake and Kabengele's cap holds ($3.2m) come off our books when Blake retires and Kabengele signs elsewhere...so we would have to fit both Gabriel and Dwight into that $1.3m. So we would probably have to get rid of someone else...maybe Banton or Brissett?? But then we would be short wings 



Then again, as Phantom said, we're talking about insurance players here...Brad has decided to dole out the $$$ to players he expects will be playing, not players to sit the bench as insurance. We probably ascribe more importance to the 9-12 spots on the roster than they do.

[jambr380]

If Brad signs a couple of these guys now, trades them at the deadline (with cash and/or a 2nd), and then signs a couple of vets to pro-rated contracts midseason, would that help keep us under the 2nd apron or was there a change in the CBA that doesn't allow this anymore?

As long as we’re under the second apron we can do that. If we’re over, we can’t trade cash and can’t sign buyouts (but can sign other free agents) although it’s not clear to me if that restriction starts next year or this because of the phase-in.

I posted this in the Gabriel thread, but thought it was relevant here. C2021 obviously knows his stuff, so it looks like we could be over the apron, trade a player or two with a 2nd (no cash), and then sign a couple of FAs (Blake anyone?), but not buy-outs. We are so close to being under the 2nd apron - within a couple hundred thousand if we go into the season with 14 instead of 15. It would be odd if just say screw it and barely go over.

[otherdave]

Roy that looks perfect to me!

[Roy H.]

If Brad signs a couple of these guys now, trades them at the deadline (with cash and/or a 2nd), and then signs a couple of vets to pro-rated contracts midseason, would that help keep us under the 2nd apron or was there a change in the CBA that doesn't allow this anymore?

As long as we’re under the second apron we can do that. If we’re over, we can’t trade cash and can’t sign buyouts (but can sign other free agents) although it’s not clear to me if that restriction starts next year or this because of the phase-in.

I posted this in the Gabriel thread, but thought it was relevant here. C2021 obviously knows his stuff, so it looks like we could be over the apron, trade a player or two with a 2nd (no cash), and then sign a couple of FAs (Blake anyone?), but not buy-outs. We are so close to being under the 2nd apron - within a couple hundred thousand if we go into the season with 14 instead of 15. It would be odd if just say screw it and barely go over.

Some corrections:  the "no buyouts" clause applies to teams over the *first* apron, which we've left way in the dust.  Teams over the first apron wouldn't be allowed to sign players who were bought out that made more than the full non-taxpayer midlevel exception.  So, we'll have room to sign some guys making less than the full MLE.

The "no cash" thing doesn't apply until next season, and there are a bunch of other penalties next season, as well.

Next year's penalties:

1.  No sending cash in trades;

2.  We can't take back more than we send out in trades;

3.  We can't aggregate player salaries to match salary in a trade;

4.  We can't use the MLE or BAE;

5.  We can't use TPEs;

6.  We can't send out our own players in sign-and-trades.

7.  The pick freeze:

If a team is above the second apron as of the last day of the regular season, starting with the 2024-25 cap year (July 1, 2024), then its first-round pick seven years out cannot be traded. That’s called the frozen pick. If that team is also above the second apron in two of the ensuing four years, that frozen pick will also be moved to the end of the first round in that year. If more than one team has a frozen pick in a draft year, then they’ll draft in the reverse order of their finish in the standings in the season preceding that draft.

A team can unfreeze its pick if it is below or equal to the second-apron threshold in at least three of the next four years after it went over. It will then be allowed to be traded again, starting with the first day of the new salary-cap year after that third season not going over the second apron.

So if a team exceeds the second apron in the 2024-25 season, it means:

Their 2032 first-round pick (at least temporarily) cannot be traded.
It is unfrozen only if that team is at or under the second apron in at least three of the next four seasons. So the earliest they could trade their 2032 first-round pick is the day after the end of the 2027-28 regular season. (They could also gain the ability to trade it on July 1, 2029).
If they instead exceed the second apron in at least two of the ensuing four seasons, the 2032 pick moves to the bottom of the first round regardless of how they perform in the 2030-31 season, and it still cannot be traded.

https://theathletic.com/4607105/2023/06/28/nba-cba-new-rules/?access_token=6385178

[Celtics2021]

According to Spotrac, we've got 13 players under contract, although not all of those contracts are guaranteed.

Then, we signed Lamar Stevens to a training camp contract only.

Similarly, we've reportedly signed Wenyen Gabriel to a training camp contract only.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/

Committed salaries:  $181,460,777

+ Stevens: $2,019,706

+ Gabriel:  $2,019,706

Total:  $185,500,189

Second Apron:  $182,794,000

And, as I understand it, that's not even including Jrue's $4.4 million in unlikely incentives.

Even with 14 players, I think we're over that second apron.

With the second apron, the long-term penalties (eg draft picks) are measured at the end of the year, after bonuses are paid out.  When dealing with the cap at the apron, however, (because you used the MLE, for example) unlikely bonuses are included.  So the Celtics could be over now but finish under, because, say, the unlikely bonuses don’t kick in and the cut/trade one of Banton and Svi before the salary is fully guaranteed, and then fill that roster spot after the trade deadline.

[Roy H.]

Taking this from another thread:

Biyombo's per-36 numbers the last couple years are in line with the rest of his career.

He'd be a nice addition. But as an older vet, wouldn't his minimum salary oush us over the 2nd apron? Do we have means to shed salary to fit him in?

And can we theoretically use the $6.2m Grant Williams exception? I know if we use it now it would push us above the second apron obviously. And going over the apron a year early could hamstring us down the road, so I'm betting we don'tuse it this season. But can use it at the beginning of next offseason?

Afaik the new salary year starts on July 1. So we'd already be over the apron but would have 12 days to use it, as Grant was traded on July 12 2023.

Yes, we can use the TPE this season.  It would increase the amount we're over the second apron, but that particular bridge looks crossed.

And, unless we're signing an undrafted rookie, it looks like we'll be over the second apron in the short-term.  We could finagle our way around it financially later in the season -- trading non-guaranteed guys to another team, then picking up somebody for the pro-rated minimum -- but there's really no need to do so because the second apron doesn't itself impose any increase on tax payments. 

[jordb2k5]

I wasn’t even sure we could find a way to get below it still realistically. I think the only concern I have with being over the second apron now is the restrictions on trades. Some of those are just brutal.

I’m sure the team has made a decision  internally but imo if we are a second apron team we have to use the TPE. If we don’t use it we better get below the apron. Can’t halfway something like this.

[jambr380]

I wonder if it's a coincidence that we've traded/let go of two of our three players who were part of the NBPA and allowed such harsh restrictions to be implemented  . Sorry Jaylen, you're out next year when you can be traded. Everyone is bringing up Biyombo's name, but he is a hard no since he is also a VP /s

[green_bballers13]

Can we be done with the "Wyc is cheap" stuff?

[ozgod]

Yeah, sounds that way. Ozgod posted this yesterday.

Yes I posted that in response to someone who said we should push to sign Dwight to improve our big man depth. With so little wiggle room as it is before the second apron I'm sure Brad doesn't want Dwight to be the cause of us going over it for this year (even though the main roster building penalties which Roy mentioned don't start till next year).

I also put that table in chart form because I'm a visual person and maybe it will help other people who are visual people see where the team's money is spent. I split the Spotrac data into guaranteed money which was $174.9m (on the left), non guaranteed and training camp contracts in the middle ($8.5m) and our cap holds on the right which is basically Blake and Kabengele ($3.9m). I also put lines where the salary cap max is ($136m), the luxury tax ($165.3m) and the 2nd apron ($182.8m). If you add everything together excluding the training camp contracts we come up to $185.2m, which is active roster plus the cap holds, which is the number Spotrac has, which is above the apron. If you add the $4m in training camp contracts by signing those to active roster, then we're at $189.2m. If Blake retires and Kabengele signs elsewhere and those cap holds come off we would then be at $185.4m, still above the 2nd apron.



The good news is there are a lot of pieces, starting with Payton at $2.2m, which can be manipulated to get us below the 2nd apron. Whether we trade them for cash considerations or a pick or something. Maybe to sign the 2 training camp guys they waive some of the non guaranteed money like Kornet or Banton. My guess is Brad has been signing these filler guys not necessarily because they will make the team better, but for financial maneuvering to get around or below the 2nd apron.

What we do NOT have is space to splurge on another name-brand big or another wing that would make us all a lot more comfortable. There just isn't enough money going around for that unless they decide that this is THE year and to go all out for this year.

[Roy H.]

Yeah, sounds that way. Ozgod posted this yesterday.

Yes I posted that in response to someone who said we should push to sign Dwight to improve our big man depth. With so little wiggle room as it is before the second apron I'm sure Brad doesn't want Dwight to be the cause of us going over it for this year (even though the main roster building penalties which Roy mentioned don't start till next year).

I also put that table in chart form because I'm a visual person and maybe it will help other people who are visual people see where the team's money is spent. I split the Spotrac data into guaranteed money which was $174.9m (on the left), non guaranteed and training camp contracts in the middle ($8.5m) and our cap holds on the right which is basically Blake and Kabengele ($3.9m). I also put lines where the salary cap max is ($136m), the luxury tax ($165.3m) and the 2nd apron ($182.8m). If you add everything together excluding the training camp contracts we come up to $185.2m, which is active roster plus the cap holds, which is the number Spotrac has, which is above the apron. If you add the $4m in training camp contracts by signing those to active roster, then we're at $189.2m. If Blake retires and Kabengele signs elsewhere and those cap holds come off we would then be at $185.4m, still above the 2nd apron.



The good news is there are a lot of pieces, starting with Payton at $2.2m, which can be manipulated to get us below the 2nd apron. Whether we trade them for cash considerations or a pick or something. Maybe to sign the 2 training camp guys they waive some of the non guaranteed money like Kornet or Banton. What we do NOT have is space to splurge on another name-brand big or another wing that would make us all a lot more comfortable. There just isn't enough money going around for that unless they decide that this is THE year and to go all out for this year.

Very good stuff.  But the real question for me:  why worry about the second apron this season at all?  For this season, all it is is an arbitrary number, in between luxury tax penalty "bands".

[jordb2k5]

Yeah, sounds that way. Ozgod posted this yesterday.

Yes I posted that in response to someone who said we should push to sign Dwight to improve our big man depth. With so little wiggle room as it is before the second apron I'm sure Brad doesn't want Dwight to be the cause of us going over it for this year (even though the main roster building penalties which Roy mentioned don't start till next year).

I also put that table in chart form because I'm a visual person and maybe it will help other people who are visual people see where the team's money is spent. I split the Spotrac data into guaranteed money which was $174.9m (on the left), non guaranteed and training camp contracts in the middle ($8.5m) and our cap holds on the right which is basically Blake and Kabengele ($3.9m). I also put lines where the salary cap max is ($136m), the luxury tax ($165.3m) and the 2nd apron ($182.8m). If you add everything together excluding the training camp contracts we come up to $185.2m, which is active roster plus the cap holds, which is the number Spotrac has, which is above the apron. If you add the $4m in training camp contracts by signing those to active roster, then we're at $189.2m. If Blake retires and Kabengele signs elsewhere and those cap holds come off we would then be at $185.4m, still above the 2nd apron.



The good news is there are a lot of pieces, starting with Payton at $2.2m, which can be manipulated to get us below the 2nd apron. Whether we trade them for cash considerations or a pick or something. Maybe to sign the 2 training camp guys they waive some of the non guaranteed money like Kornet or Banton. My guess is Brad has been signing these filler guys not necessarily because they will make the team better, but for financial maneuvering to get around or below the 2nd apron.

What we do NOT have is space to splurge on another name-brand big or another wing that would make us all a lot more comfortable. There just isn't enough money going around for that unless they decide that this is THE year and to go all out for this year.

Cap holds can be renounced correct and they likely would in this case?

Svi and Banton are NGTD, so I think that's the more likely duo to be cut to help us get under the tax. I'm still not quite sure how that works we have to have a certain roster min, does just releasing them and signing a couple guys by end of year lower the bill because of pro rating?

I really am a bit torn on this overall, I just don't want a middle of the road approach. If we are going over this apron, you better use the Grant TPE and you have to extend Pritchard.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but won't we have bird rights on Kornet? Wouldn't shock me if this offseason they extend him at a generous amount but with team options annually. We have to be thinking ahead in the event we are a second apron team, we won't be able to aggregate salaries anymore which really hurts. So might as well have guys at the dollar amount you want that are flexible deals, packaged with picks to get the guy you want. Risky but also in general very hard for us to acquire any guys of value at this point at that apron without luck.

[ozgod]

Yeah, sounds that way. Ozgod posted this yesterday.

Yes I posted that in response to someone who said we should push to sign Dwight to improve our big man depth. With so little wiggle room as it is before the second apron I'm sure Brad doesn't want Dwight to be the cause of us going over it for this year (even though the main roster building penalties which Roy mentioned don't start till next year).

I also put that table in chart form because I'm a visual person and maybe it will help other people who are visual people see where the team's money is spent. I split the Spotrac data into guaranteed money which was $174.9m (on the left), non guaranteed and training camp contracts in the middle ($8.5m) and our cap holds on the right which is basically Blake and Kabengele ($3.9m). I also put lines where the salary cap max is ($136m), the luxury tax ($165.3m) and the 2nd apron ($182.8m). If you add everything together excluding the training camp contracts we come up to $185.2m, which is active roster plus the cap holds, which is the number Spotrac has, which is above the apron. If you add the $4m in training camp contracts by signing those to active roster, then we're at $189.2m. If Blake retires and Kabengele signs elsewhere and those cap holds come off we would then be at $185.4m, still above the 2nd apron.



The good news is there are a lot of pieces, starting with Payton at $2.2m, which can be manipulated to get us below the 2nd apron. Whether we trade them for cash considerations or a pick or something. Maybe to sign the 2 training camp guys they waive some of the non guaranteed money like Kornet or Banton. What we do NOT have is space to splurge on another name-brand big or another wing that would make us all a lot more comfortable. There just isn't enough money going around for that unless they decide that this is THE year and to go all out for this year.

Very good stuff.  But the real question for me:  why worry about the second apron this season at all?  For this season, all it is is an arbitrary number, in between luxury tax penalty "bands".

I agree, this season is kind of a soft entry into the 2nd apron, since the roster building penalties don't trigger till next year. Maybe for a team in our situation, where we have a lot of small contracts that are pushing us over it, its would be easier to re-tool to get under it next year if we went over it and it didn't work out this year. But if you have a team with less financial flexibility, they may end up having to substantially re-make their team or trade away a key piece because they were over the 2nd apron and getting under it wasn't just a matter or shedding one or two minimum wage guys. I imagine it's not a big deal to get rid of one or two end of bench guys, but less so if you had to get rid of a key piece at the end of the season.

In a way it reminds me of Leeds United in the Premier League, they massively overspent to try to win the Premier League and to get into the Champions League, they missed out, had to sell off half their team, got relegated and the impact of that overspending is still being felt today. We don't want to be in that situation...but I think where we're at right now, where we are a little bit over it and can easily fall under it if needed, with a minimal impact on the team, is not a bad place to be in.

[Vermont Green]

If Brad signs a couple of these guys now, trades them at the deadline (with cash and/or a 2nd), and then signs a couple of vets to pro-rated contracts midseason, would that help keep us under the 2nd apron or was there a change in the CBA that doesn't allow this anymore?

As long as we’re under the second apron we can do that. If we’re over, we can’t trade cash and can’t sign buyouts (but can sign other free agents) although it’s not clear to me if that restriction starts next year or this because of the phase-in.

I posted this in the Gabriel thread, but thought it was relevant here. C2021 obviously knows his stuff, so it looks like we could be over the apron, trade a player or two with a 2nd (no cash), and then sign a couple of FAs (Blake anyone?), but not buy-outs. We are so close to being under the 2nd apron - within a couple hundred thousand if we go into the season with 14 instead of 15. It would be odd if just say screw it and barely go over.

Some corrections:  the "no buyouts" clause applies to teams over the *first* apron, which we've left way in the dust.  Teams over the first apron wouldn't be allowed to sign players who were bought out that made more than the full non-taxpayer midlevel exception.  So, we'll have room to sign some guys making less than the full MLE.

The "no cash" thing doesn't apply until next season, and there are a bunch of other penalties next season, as well.

Next year's penalties:

1.  No sending cash in trades;

2.  We can't take back more than we send out in trades;

3.  We can't aggregate player salaries to match salary in a trade;

4.  We can't use the MLE or BAE;

5.  We can't use TPEs;

6.  We can't send out our own players in sign-and-trades.

7.  The pick freeze:

If a team is above the second apron as of the last day of the regular season, starting with the 2024-25 cap year (July 1, 2024), then its first-round pick seven years out cannot be traded. That’s called the frozen pick. If that team is also above the second apron in two of the ensuing four years, that frozen pick will also be moved to the end of the first round in that year. If more than one team has a frozen pick in a draft year, then they’ll draft in the reverse order of their finish in the standings in the season preceding that draft.

A team can unfreeze its pick if it is below or equal to the second-apron threshold in at least three of the next four years after it went over. It will then be allowed to be traded again, starting with the first day of the new salary-cap year after that third season not going over the second apron.

So if a team exceeds the second apron in the 2024-25 season, it means:

Their 2032 first-round pick (at least temporarily) cannot be traded.
It is unfrozen only if that team is at or under the second apron in at least three of the next four seasons. So the earliest they could trade their 2032 first-round pick is the day after the end of the 2027-28 regular season. (They could also gain the ability to trade it on July 1, 2029).
If they instead exceed the second apron in at least two of the ensuing four seasons, the 2032 pick moves to the bottom of the first round regardless of how they perform in the 2030-31 season, and it still cannot be traded.

https://theathletic.com/4607105/2023/06/28/nba-cba-new-rules/?access_token=6385178

Can someone clarify this regarding the TPE?  Based on the discussion, once we sign Wenyen Gabrial or some other min player, we are going to be over the second apron.  We could cut someone else and get back under it.  But what are the limitation on using the Grant TPE this season?