Poll

If We Fail to Win the NBA Championship in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?

Yes unless we make it to the NBA Finals
5 (10.4%)
Yes unless we make it to the Eastern Conference Finals (Again...)
1 (2.1%)
No
38 (79.2%)
Undecided
4 (8.3%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Voting closed: January 08, 2021, 02:21:32 AM

Author Topic: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?  (Read 6208 times)

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Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2020, 02:22:28 AM »

Offline slamdunk

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He had them set up to get Davis from NO. It's not his fault Davis pretty much forced a trade to LA.

Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2020, 09:10:50 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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The Lakers just won championship 17 and LeBron just won his fourth championship since our last appearance in the NBA Finals. Oh, and Rondo just won his second NBA championship, this time as a Laker. Who’s laughing now?

But all of you are really happy with us not winning championships? We’re content watching LeBron/Rondo pass us for 18 first? In Danny we trust? I ask, “what have you done for us lately, Danny and Brad? We were in game 7 of the ECF two years ago, half a quarter away and much closer than this time, but just like two years ago we’d have lost this year no matter what even if we had made it. How are we getting over this hump?”

Popovich and Tony Bennett may be options after 2020-2021. If either of them are available and we do not have championship 18, we need to jump on it and let Ainge/Stevens go...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 09:33:19 AM by GreenlyGreeny »

Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2020, 09:55:52 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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This team needs a major infusion of size and toughness in the middle. If Ainge Ainge and Stevens would focus on that in this year’s off season it would be nice. We’d be ready to roll against any team in the league.

I hate Ainge’s general lack of interest in a deep, large front court. I get the small ball stuff - we have that covered. We need some quality big guys via the draft (who can grow long term with Tatum, Brown and Smart) and BOS free agency and’r smallish trades to get some veteran big guys with toughness - Baynes comes to mind.

Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2020, 10:16:21 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Since I remember the direction of this team from before Ainge, I am happy to say keep Ainge.


If only two top 5 players in today's NBA wanted to force themselves to Boston like the did to LA?   Heck, even forcing themselves to the Clippers. 


And yes, I understand the lack of big men depth this year, but it is not something Ainge just ignores.   He did sign Hortford (not to mention the big trade for KG)   in the past.   But players like that are not going to be available to the Celtics right now.   They need to just upgrade the depth to fill the different roles.  Not a single big man is going to do it.

Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2020, 10:44:57 AM »

Offline td450

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If we falter in 2021, you can still say Ainge is a good GM. But there's good, and there's championship good.

He is in a place where he can set  the franchise up for multiple championships, or we can linger where we are indefinitely, and perhaps even convince Tatum or Brown to want out at some point.

I think they can win a title with a simple formula

Full focus around Tatum and Brown
Get second tier buy in and support performance from Walker, Hayward and Smart
Trade up for Okongwu with our other picks. If we need to give up Langford or Grant Williams too, then do it.
Get normal development and improvement out of Langford, Williams and Williams, depending on who is here
Be lucky enough to be healthy at crunch time.

 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 10:51:43 AM by td450 »

Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2020, 11:07:31 AM »

Offline Mike Pemulis

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YES AND TRADE EVERYONE. THESE IDEAS RULE. I LOVE KLEENEXES. YOU GUYS - IT'S OKAY TO BE IRRATIONAL WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR TEAM. AFTER ALL ISNT THAT WHAT BEING A BOSTON FAN IS ALL ABOUT. BANNER 18! HOW'S IT GOING JABRONIS? DO WE BRING BACK ISAIAH THOMAS? SHOULD WE TRADE TATUM FOR JAMES YOUNG?
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Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2020, 09:28:24 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Well, I admit I may be wrong.

Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2020, 09:45:26 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Unless we can trade Ainge for LeBron or Davis, I don't see the point.

Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2020, 11:52:58 AM »

Online Moranis

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Since I remember the direction of this team from before Ainge, I am happy to say keep Ainge.


If only two top 5 players in today's NBA wanted to force themselves to Boston like the did to LA?   Heck, even forcing themselves to the Clippers. 


And yes, I understand the lack of big men depth this year, but it is not something Ainge just ignores.   He did sign Hortford (not to mention the big trade for KG)   in the past.   But players like that are not going to be available to the Celtics right now.   They need to just upgrade the depth to fill the different roles.  Not a single big man is going to do it.
Ainge took over in the middle of a 44 win season and ECS appearance which followed a 49 win season and a ECF appearance.  Ainge immediately blew that team up with a string of terrible moves (and let's be clear that team was all basically in their mid-20's so it had years left).  But for KG becoming available, Ainge would have had a vastly different tenure in Boston.  Then he miraculously made the Nets trade, which obviously has kept Boston relevant, but he has also mismanaged the team a lot since that trade was made by wasting assets, not pulling the trigger on moves he should have made, etc.
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Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2020, 05:06:34 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Since I remember the direction of this team from before Ainge, I am happy to say keep Ainge.


If only two top 5 players in today's NBA wanted to force themselves to Boston like the did to LA?   Heck, even forcing themselves to the Clippers. 


And yes, I understand the lack of big men depth this year, but it is not something Ainge just ignores.   He did sign Hortford (not to mention the big trade for KG)   in the past.   But players like that are not going to be available to the Celtics right now.   They need to just upgrade the depth to fill the different roles.  Not a single big man is going to do it.
Ainge took over in the middle of a 44 win season and ECS appearance which followed a 49 win season and a ECF appearance.  Ainge immediately blew that team up with a string of terrible moves (and let's be clear that team was all basically in their mid-20's so it had years left).  But for KG becoming available, Ainge would have had a vastly different tenure in Boston.  Then he miraculously made the Nets trade, which obviously has kept Boston relevant, but he has also mismanaged the team a lot since that trade was made by wasting assets, not pulling the trigger on moves he should have made, etc.
Seems a bit dishonest to list one good thing Ainge has done in the last 10 years
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Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2020, 07:09:37 PM »

Online Moranis

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Since I remember the direction of this team from before Ainge, I am happy to say keep Ainge.


If only two top 5 players in today's NBA wanted to force themselves to Boston like the did to LA?   Heck, even forcing themselves to the Clippers. 


And yes, I understand the lack of big men depth this year, but it is not something Ainge just ignores.   He did sign Hortford (not to mention the big trade for KG)   in the past.   But players like that are not going to be available to the Celtics right now.   They need to just upgrade the depth to fill the different roles.  Not a single big man is going to do it.
Ainge took over in the middle of a 44 win season and ECS appearance which followed a 49 win season and a ECF appearance.  Ainge immediately blew that team up with a string of terrible moves (and let's be clear that team was all basically in their mid-20's so it had years left).  But for KG becoming available, Ainge would have had a vastly different tenure in Boston.  Then he miraculously made the Nets trade, which obviously has kept Boston relevant, but he has also mismanaged the team a lot since that trade was made by wasting assets, not pulling the trigger on moves he should have made, etc.
Seems a bit dishonest to list one good thing Ainge has done in the last 10 years
The Nets trade was awesome.  As was Fultz/Tatum trade.   But it really isn't all that debatable that Ainge's indecision on bigger moves and then the disastrous Irving trade have really set the team back from where it could be.  You can't just say well he won a title a decade ago and pulled off the great Nets trade and end the discussion.  Especially when Boston went two full off-seasons (between the Irving trade and Walker acquisition, Boston did almost nothing in the summer) and two trade deadlines (the last two, I think you can give a pass on the one three years ago, though Boston didn't do anything then either), without doing a single thing when the team was on the cusp of having a real shot at making the finals.  I liked his moves last summer, but he left the team with a very shallow bench and unbalanced roster, which he didn't fix at the trade deadline (and could have).  And had he fixed some of those issues, Boston probably would have beaten Miami (I don't think there were moves out there that would have beaten the Lakers, but Miami was certainly beatable).  I mean the Sixers acquired Alec Burks and Glenn Robinson for three 2nd round picks.  Either one would have helped Boston's bench a great deal in the playoffs, let alone both.  WCS got traded for a 2nd pick as well.  Alex Len was available for almost nothing.  And on and on.  Just a little move could have made the difference in a close playoff series. 

Basically since Ainge made the Nets trade, has tried to win, while also building for the future and that failure to pick a direction caused him to harm the title odds of both paths.  The Irving trade on its own wasn't the failure, it was the decision to not follow it up and pull the trigger on the bigger move.  Boston should have acquired Kawhi or Davis.  Or any of the other "stars" out there.  You don't acquire Irving and then don't give him the support he needed to really compete.  If he wasn't going to make the follow-up moves, he never should have acquired Irving and wasted future assets.  And it was that way before Irving, I mean he could have acquired George for basically Crowder, Smart, and the pick that became Robert Williams (or some other mid to late 1st rounder), but Ainge just had to wait to use cap space on Hayward and the George trade went away.  He should have just pulled the trigger and figured out how to acquire Hayward later or just be content with the better player.  And he would have still had Bradley on the roster so he still could have acquired Irving with a Bradley, Thomas, Nets pick package.  Before all the George rumors were the Butler ones or countless other stars that were available that Ainge didn't acquire, and then picked the worst possible star to acquire in Irving (a one dimensional crazy person should never be the person you build around).  For basically a decade Ainge has had the inability to pull the trigger.  He fell in love with his assets and forgot to build a team. 
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Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2020, 08:33:01 AM »

Offline biggs

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The #1 problem is ownership. They wanted to compete while tanking. Took the rebuild in two different directions.

Make money, while getting draft picks? "Yes please," says ownership.

It does kind of feel like Ainge has hit a wall with his strategy though. All these mid-round picks don't mean squat these days, and the type of player that he obsesses over; the defensive-minded guards that can't shoot?

Hayward has been abysmal. Stevens does not know how to control the flow of the game, and make adjustments when needed. They both need to go. But, beyond that, this team feels like they have a bright future, however they severely lack experience when it comes down to the wire.

We need to get back some of what we lost in Morris.

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Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2020, 08:55:20 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Quote
Basically since Ainge made the Nets trade, has tried to win, while also building for the future and that failure to pick a direction caused him to harm the title odds of both paths.

This is a pretty apt summary of the last 3-5 years.  Ainge has tried to play both sides of the coin a little too much and ended up seemingly squandering opportunities. 

I'm not advocating Wyc fire Danny, and I'm still pleased with the totality of his work during his time here, but his mistakes have absolutely had consequences that have held the team back.

Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2020, 11:55:45 AM »

Offline Big333223

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No.

And might I add: lol

Ainge built a champion last decade and then rebuild that team into one that has made the ECF 3 of the last 4 years. The team's two best players in the playoffs were 23 and 22 years old. Ainge is doing a terrific job.
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Re: If We Falter in 2021, Should We Move On From Ainge?
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2020, 01:43:03 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Basically since Ainge made the Nets trade, has tried to win, while also building for the future and that failure to pick a direction caused him to harm the title odds of both paths. 


I disagree with this pretty strongly. 


Like any smart GM, Ainge has set his franchise up to have multiple paths to follow toward success, rather than placing all of the team's resources on one plan.


Ainge spent most of the period between 2014 and 2017 piling up assets to make a move.  There were potentially some opportunities for guys like George and Butler, but nothing that was a slam dunk because it was never really possible to get those guys with more than a single season left on his deal.

Thanks to the IT trade working out super well and Brad being a very good coach, the Celts were still competitive during that asset compilation period.  That competitiveness allowed the team to sign Al Horford in 2016 and then Hayward in 2017. 

Danny managed to trade for Kyrie Irving, a B-Tier star who had shown some MVP level upside during the 2016 playoff run, without trading away any of his best assets.  This then set up the team to contend for a couple years with Kyrie, Hayward, and Horford, while leaving the door open for an even bigger deal for the next major name to become available.

We now know that Ainge had Anthony Davis on his mind for several years before Davis ever became available.  I think it's pretty obvious now that the idea was that the team would thrive with Kyrie, Hayward, and Horford, leading Kyrie to want to stick around, and then Kyrie's cache as a star would give the Celts a chance to convince AD to want to come here.  Trading for AD was supposed to be Ainge's follow-up to the KG trade.  The major headline grabbing move that would change the NBA landscape and lead directly to Banner 18.


Unfortunately, the Hayward injury basically ruined all of those plans.  The team still made the ECF in 2018, but that run actually threw off the plans even further in some respects because it created a rift between Irving (who didn't participate in that run) and the younger guys who introduced themselves to a national audience.  It also made it that much harder to consider trading Tatum and Brown given what they'd shown.


This all culminated with Kyrie checking out almost a full year before he actually left in free agency, and Davis signing with Klutch and deciding he wanted to be a Laker over a year before his team was really willing to trade him.


Despite all of this, the Celts were still in a great position to transition to building around Tatum and Brown.  They made the ECF yet again this summer despite not looking like a roster that would be favored to win a second round series as recently as last October.




The bottom line is that if Ainge had "chosen a direction" as you seem to suggest he should have done, there's a good chance that the Celtics would be in a much worse position now.  Ainge could have easily gone all-in trading for a guy like Butler, Kawhi, or George, only to have that guy leave after one season.  The team could have likewise traded for Davis, gotten one half-hearted season from him knowing that he was never planning to stay, and then watched him leave.


Many franchises would have simply been crippled by an injury like the one Hayward sustained.  Thanks to Danny Ainge decidedly NOT putting too much emphasis on one plan or direction, the Celts have been able to shift gears and are now poised to remain among the upper echelon of teams while building around a 22 year old All-NBA talent and a 23 year old perennial All-Star type talent.


I guarantee that the same people complaining that Ainge didn't "choose a direction" would have excoriated him if he

(a) used all his trade assets in the mid-2010s to go after a superstar or two and that player left in FA before winning a title or

(b) traded away / chose not to sign any vets and focused on developing the young players, resulting in several 1st and 2nd round exits in a row.
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