Why are some words ok and others are not?

[Rondo2287]

But Crownsy Im in no way for not discussing this topic.  I am all about discussing this topic and why people use the words they do.  And to a certain extent when you use the word retarded you are belittling those born with mental handicaps whether its your intention or not.  When you use the word because your friend fell while drunk, you belittle the family of the mentally handicapped that devote their lives to make sure that those who may not be able to fend for themselves are taken care of after they are gone or no longer able to care for them.

(Hypothetical you, not you crownsy or anybody else here)

No, in your opinion, those people are belittling that group, and that's the heart of the political correctness movement. That idea that people should be censored based on the fact that what they say may be offensive. and that's the scary part of political correctness, it forces a majority's opinion of what is and isn't offensive on others and inhibits free speech based on the ideal that people are morons, and won't be able to figure out on their own what is offensive and intolerable speech.

But do you see how 1) that's unfair, your projecting your interpretation of what the word says or the speakers meaning onto others. I.E policing their thoughts for them.

and 2) It doesn't help to bring the actual issue, that the person is unlearned on the plight of the mentally handicapped, to light.

Do you honestly think that just because people don't use racist terms in the south, due to the political correctness movement, that racism has gotten better? It just means those racists who would have been easily identified and stigmatized by their hate speech now hide behind the very movement that trumpets to oppose them by affecting outrage and disfavor whenever a real, biting racial issue is brought to light.

And for what, a false sense of normalcy that doesn't actually exist? I must have missed where in the constitution it said that everyone had a duty to be non-offensive to everyone else.

It's ok to get offended at times, it provokes discussion, and perhaps even real analysis of the issues. Political correctness promotes social falsehood to avoid actually addressing issues that matter.

Well I guess what I am trying to do is explain why people shouldnt say the word by explaining why it is offensive.  I am very happy that we are discussing this, as I  said I really thought there would be more people that agreed with me on this one so I am happy that I had a chance to express my views on the topic.  

[Kwhit10]

All im saying is, if you throw hurtful words around in passing you never know who is hearing it.  If you can stop from ruining somebodys day just by replacing one word in your vocabulary why are you so hesitant about it.  But I mean really its the golden rule, do you think you would people throwing it around if say you had a brother who is retarded.  I do and personally I find it incredibly ignorant.  

As I had stated earlier I don't go around saying it in public social conversation, I use it in private.  And even then you still hoped that I had used a different word.  If I use it in private I obviously know the company I keep, I don't use it as a derogatory word for the mentally handicapped I use it as a synonym of stupid (as per the definition).  So how does it ruin someone's day if I use it in private and those people aren't offended that I used retarded instead of stupid?

[crownsy]

But Crownsy Im in no way for not discussing this topic.  I am all about discussing this topic and why people use the words they do.  And to a certain extent when you use the word retarded you are belittling those born with mental handicaps whether its your intention or not.  When you use the word because your friend fell while drunk, you belittle the family of the mentally handicapped that devote their lives to make sure that those who may not be able to fend for themselves are taken care of after they are gone or no longer able to care for them.

(Hypothetical you, not you crownsy or anybody else here)

No, in your opinion, those people are belittling that group, and that's the heart of the political correctness movement. That idea that people should be censored based on the fact that what they say may be offensive. and that's the scary part of political correctness, it forces a majority's opinion of what is and isn't offensive on others and inhibits free speech based on the ideal that people are morons, and won't be able to figure out on their own what is offensive and intolerable speech.

But do you see how 1) that's unfair, your projecting your interpretation of what the word says or the speakers meaning onto others. I.E policing their thoughts for them.

and 2) It doesn't help to bring the actual issue, that the person is unlearned on the plight of the mentally handicapped, to light.

Do you honestly think that just because people don't use racist terms in the south, due to the political correctness movement, that racism has gotten better? It just means those racists who would have been easily identified and stigmatized by their hate speech now hide behind the very movement that trumpets to oppose them by affecting outrage and disfavor whenever a real, biting racial issue is brought to light.

And for what, a false sense of normalcy that doesn't actually exist? I must have missed where in the constitution it said that everyone had a duty to be non-offensive to everyone else.

It's ok to get offended at times, it provokes discussion, and perhaps even real analysis of the issues. Political correctness promotes social falsehood to avoid actually addressing issues that matter.

Well I guess what I am trying to do is explain why people shouldnt say the word by explaining why it is offensive.  I am very happy that we are discussing this, as I  said I really thought there would be more people that agreed with me on this one so I am happy that I had a chance to express my views on the topic.  

Oh me too, though in fairness, we should probley split this discussion of the PC movement in general into another thread, as we started based on one word.

As to that specific word, I'll go back to my original post as my last thought.

When used in hate, It's an awful slur. When it's used to call your friend dumb...im not so sure. I don't use it often, but i don't begrudge my friends when its context is clearly "wow, that was an incredibly silly/dumb thing to do"

[screwedupmaniac]

What if the person is a Laker fan?

then it's the truth, and it's okay! haha jk. i agree with the OP, i know i'm guilty of using the word retard wayyy too much, but it's so difficult to stop using it. i've caught myself starting to say it around people who are mentally challenged and would feel terrible if it ever slipped out. i will do my best to cut insults such as this out of my vocab...TP for getting us thinking about what is and isn't acceptable in society, how we can adjust what we do everyday as to not offend or hurt others, and for the "Office" quote as well. best. show. ever!

[Fan from VT]

When you say something, it's not up to you to decide whether or not the person hearing it is offended. It is up to the person hearing the word to decide whether or not you offended them.


The rest is just a matter of critical numbers, a "tipping point" if you will.

[crownsy]

When you say something, it's not up to you to decide whether or not the person hearing it is offended. It is up to the person hearing the word to decide whether or not you offended them.


The rest is just a matter of critical numbers, a "tipping point" if you will.

exactly. the censor, if you don't like the way the word is used, should come from you, not an imposed doctrine.

If someone offends you, bring up that you think they are wrong and discuss it, or simply infer that they are not someone who you would like to know anymore.

[Fan from VT]

When you say something, it's not up to you to decide whether or not the person hearing it is offended. It is up to the person hearing the word to decide whether or not you offended them.


The rest is just a matter of critical numbers, a "tipping point" if you will.

exactly. the censor, if you don't like the way the word is used, should come from you, not an imposed doctrine.

If someone offends you, bring up that you think they are wrong and discuss it, or simply infer that they are not someone who you would like to know anymore.

Well, not necessarily.

Here's how I see it.

If person A says something to Person B, or says something publicly in easy range of person B, person A does not get to decide whether or not person B should feel offended. Person B gets to decide whether or not they have been offended.


However, In addition, there exists an inexact population (unique for each word) for which if that number of people agree that Person B has a legitimate reason to be offended by person A's comment, then Person A's comment is deemed "unacceptable" or "offensive."

There is a very ambiguous line between Person B being laughed off as overly sensitive and Person A being a Bigot.


The nature of this dynamic depends on many factors. For example:
-History of power gradient
-Degree of negative connotation
-Vocality of offended group/individual
-Number of offended & allies
-Ability of offended to represent themselves
-Levels of education
-Amount of hatred behind the history of the word
-Baggage, innuendo, and hidden meaning of a word

I'm sure there are many more factors, and they are fluid over time.

Look at the word "Cracker." It used to be incredibly offensive, and used to degrade Irish-Americans by English-Americans. It carried a tremendous amount of historical baggage, hatred, and exemplified a major power dynamic. Today, that word is not nearly as offensive, because the English/Irish American boundary is much less clear and more fluid today. Some people will of course argue that the use of "cracker" by members of ethnic minorities is analogous; it simply is not the same due to the noticeable lack of history of subjugation, exploitation, and power dynamic at work.



I may be offended by someone using the word Peanut Butter. I have every right to be upset by use of that word and to say so. In addition, whomever uses the word Peanut Butter cannot say whether or not I have a right to be offended. They do, however, have a right to continue to use the word and not care if I am offended. And if no one else is offended by the use of Peanut Butter, and no one else sympathizes with my offense, then I'm not going to get anywhere and Peanut Butter will still be used. But if enough people look at the situation and decide that the phrase Peanut Butter is a derogatory term that has only so far existed because me and my fellow non-Peanut Butterians have been to weak to have our voices heard, and have a history of being exploited, then common usage of Peanut Butter may stop. 


Case study:

To "Gyp" someone is to rip them off. It's a slang word derived from the word "Gypsy," which implies that ripping people off (theft, betrayal and dishonesty) is inherent in Gypsy people. Is this word offensive? Would it be offensive if Gypsies had a stronger ethnic presence in America? Were more vocal? If the root of the word was more widely understood? 


Further examples: I hear people say they "J--ed down" the cost of something. Is this more or less offensive than "Gyp?" Why?
And what if you "N-----ed up" a situation? More or less offensive, why?

This is not to mention the colloquial use of B---- or C---, which are just deplorable.



In general, I see no reason to use words that are even borderline offensive. Using such words is a lazy and ambiguous shortcut because you are relying on the hidden meanings of such words. Anything you want to say using slang can be said much more clearly with genuine words.



Edit: This cycle is made even more complicated by the Reclamation of derogatory terms as well as satirical social commentary and the subsequent lack of recognition of such satire (see: Chappelle, Dave)

[Rondo2287]

All im saying is, if you throw hurtful words around in passing you never know who is hearing it.  If you can stop from ruining somebodys day just by replacing one word in your vocabulary why are you so hesitant about it.  But I mean really its the golden rule, do you think you would people throwing it around if say you had a brother who is retarded.  I do and personally I find it incredibly ignorant.  

As I had stated earlier I don't go around saying it in public social conversation, I use it in private.  And even then you still hoped that I had used a different word.  If I use it in private I obviously know the company I keep, I don't use it as a derogatory word for the mentally handicapped I use it as a synonym of stupid (as per the definition).  So how does it ruin someone's day if I use it in private and those people aren't offended that I used retarded instead of stupid?

OK, but if you regulate when you say it there has to be a filter somewhere in your head that tells you its wrong to say. 

[Eja117]

But what if that person is slow, physically, and is retarding the progress of the group.

funniest thing I've read in a month. TP

[Eja117]

Since nobody owns language I refuse to believe there are words that aren't ok and I refuse to believe that words have any power. I find the whole "He said a bad word!" to be very 3rd graderish and fully expect it to be followed with "Mommy!"

I only own the language I use and so I have to take responsibility for what I say as others do. People can call me whatever they want and that's their deal. I know who and what I am. 

But then there are natural consequences for what you say, so what is ok and what isn't is up to you.

However this question has been around since language existed. Scientists now know monkeys have words and lie.

In the Ten Commandments there are two or three commandments involving language, and one in particular was because people at one time thought words have power.

But that was thousands of years ago and I refuse to think that way.

[dark_lord]

words can be powerful and indeed hurt someone.  the same way that people should be careful what they say and how it can impact others......other people should also thicken their skin.  its a mix of both things and it really depends on individual situations.

personally the only words i find truly offensive are racial slurs.

[celticsclay]

Bring back antoine walker?

[Chris]

I think this comes down to a few things:

1. you have a right to say what you want
2. you are responsible for what you say, and where you say it

If you call your friend a retard, and there is a mentally challenged person next to you that hears it, I feel like they have the social right (although maybe not legal) to punch you in the face.

If you call your friend an "F" at work, and your boss overhears you, he or she can certainly use that as grounds to fire you, depending on the particular job.

And so on and so forth.

Fan from VT was absolutely right that whether something you say offends someone depends 100% on the personal feelings of the person who hears it.  Whether it is offensive in a more general sense has to do with cultural "tipping points".  But either way, as long as you are not using the words while committing a hate crime (which is not really what is being discussed here), then you can say whatever you want...just beware the social consequences.

[Bankshot]

Bring back antoine walker?

Word!

[cdif911]

I saw this thread this am at work and thought, it's not gonna last til I get home...and here it is, alive and kicking....

my 2 cents - certain words make me cringe no matter who says them to who - the n, the f, the r are among them...you're g....that's a bad one too...I'm not a fan, not a fan at all; some words should be left to die as they serve no constructive purpose and implicitly show racism, homophobia, etc.