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Beyond the Association => Maine Celtics / G-League => Topic started by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 12:00:19 PM

Title: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 12:00:19 PM
I agree, the NBA as a whole will benefit from Europe developing it's youth but to the same degree legit Minor league would.

How can Stern, as the leagues CEO, continue to sink money into a failing league (WNBA has recorded a loss in profit every year in business) and not develop an NBA farm system?

It doesn't make sense to me that with the billions the NBA takes in, the popularity of the sport and NBA teams share farm clubs? Its absurd.

I firmly believe here in New England alone we could support 8 Teams:

Lowell, MA
Worcester, MA
Springfield, MA
Providence, RI
Hartford, CT
Manchester, NH
Burlington, VT
Bristol/New Haven CT?

There is underdeveloped youth taking up roster spots as well veterans with gas in the tank losing there jobs to potential. A good system will solve both these issues...
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: Donoghus on September 25, 2008, 12:30:59 PM
I think the NBDL is about the best that you're gonna get.  Other than that, you'll have those independent leagues that are floating around the nation (I think there is a current incarnation of the CBA floating around these days).  One of the problems having a "true" minor league system is the limited number of roster spots on an NBA basketball team.  There's not a lot of space to play around with in regards to flexability.

Another thing to consider is the question of fan turnout at these things?  Are people really going to pay and see a bunch of has-beens and once-be college stars running up and down the basketball court hoping to get called up to the big time?  The real legit prospects are going to be on an NBA roster right away so I don't think you'll really see many "up and comers".  One of the features of baseball's minor league system is seeing the "stars of tomorrow". This draws fans. I just don't that type of system in regards to basketball.  Different sports, different dynamics.

The other issue is that it would most likely be competing with college basketball.  I don't like the chances of a NBA "minor league" system going up against college basketball.  College basketball is established and these guys are still amateurs.  Plus you have alumni loyalties and such that will naturally draw in fans.   

Diehards might go but I don't see a minor league drawing in big crowds.  I don't know if the NBA really wants to pump hardcore money into something will, most likely, struggle.  Therefore, the salaries offered will be minimal and most guys will still jump ship to Europe if they can't make the NBA.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on September 25, 2008, 12:45:20 PM
The problem with the current NBA system is the limited roster spots and on who those roster spots are spent. I don't care if it's through a minor league or what not, but the NBA has to allow teams to stockpile their talent some how.

What's the current consequence of the current system? Teams are forced to fill their roster spots on projects and unprepared players. Teams are forced to play lesser players on a roster instead of better proffesionals.

Currently, the only way teams have of going around this roster spot problem is by having rights to a player and sending them to play over Europe. That shouldn't be necessary. Teams should be allowed to keep 20-25 players under contract wether they make the final team roster or not.

This should allow teams to fill their team (the roster that actually plays) with people who are actually NBA ready and able to contribute. It should improve the skill level throughout the season. It'll also allow bad teams to rebuild quicker.

I really don't care how the NBA does it, but a system that allows teams to stockpile talent is a must in my opinion. And it starts by fixing the roster spots situation.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 12:58:17 PM
The problem with the current NBA system is the limited roster spots and on who those roster spots are spent. I don't care if it's through a minor league or what not, but the NBA has to allow teams to stockpile their talent some how.

What's the current consequence of the current system? Teams are forced to fill their roster spots on projects and unprepared players. Teams are forced to play lesser players on a roster instead of better proffesionals.

Currently, the only way teams have of going around this roster spot problem is by having rights to a player and sending them to play over Europe. That shouldn't be necessary. Teams should be allowed to keep 20-25 players under contract wether they make the final team roster or not.

This should allow teams to fill their team (the roster that actually plays) with people who are actually NBA ready and able to contribute. It should improve the skill level throughout the season. It'll also allow bad teams to rebuild quicker.

I really don't care how the NBA does it, but a system that allows teams to stockpile talent is a must in my opinion. And it starts by fixing the roster spots situation.

I agree, and a minor league team could provide up to 15 more roster spots...

If I could add, Donoghus,

The NBA can offer more then the NBDL with teams sharing rotating clubs.

Fan turn-out would be better than Hockey and in my opinion fan support would be mediocre to great with sell outs every weekend in the cities I listed. The NBA has a young demographic. Young people in Manchester (for example) will be begging to go to these games.

As far as young prospects: Think Jermaine O'neal, Gerald Green (highlight dunking alone draws crowds) and the Kendrick Perkins of the world.

I would also suggest adding a 3rd round to the NBA draft.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 01:05:11 PM
Also, through marketing and the promotion of both there team and the game of basketball NBA Teams would achieve a ROI on a $7 -$10 million a year commitment.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: nickagneta on September 25, 2008, 01:09:54 PM
It will never happen. For all intents and purposes NCAA basketball is the minor leagues for the NBA and it costs the NBA exactly zero dollars to run it. The NCAA takes kids and showcases them and gives them excellent talent to compete with while at the same time giving the young prospects time to mature.

Why would the NBA want to set up a minor league system to develop players that will find it difficult to make a team as the 14th and 15th player on a team when the NCAA is already developing the majority of the 1st round picks that go on to be the stars, starters, and important bench players that make up most of the NBA? There's no incentive financially for them to do so.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: jgod213 on September 25, 2008, 01:17:42 PM
The problem with the current NBA system is the limited roster spots and on who those roster spots are spent. I don't care if it's through a minor league or what not, but the NBA has to allow teams to stockpile their talent some how.

What's the current consequence of the current system? Teams are forced to fill their roster spots on projects and unprepared players. Teams are forced to play lesser players on a roster instead of better proffesionals.

Currently, the only way teams have of going around this roster spot problem is by having rights to a player and sending them to play over Europe. That shouldn't be necessary. Teams should be allowed to keep 20-25 players under contract wether they make the final team roster or not.

This should allow teams to fill their team (the roster that actually plays) with people who are actually NBA ready and able to contribute. It should improve the skill level throughout the season. It'll also allow bad teams to rebuild quicker.

I really don't care how the NBA does it, but a system that allows teams to stockpile talent is a must in my opinion. And it starts by fixing the roster spots situation.

I agree, and a minor league team could provide up to 15 more roster spots...

If I could add, Donoghus,

The NBA can offer more then the NBDL with teams sharing rotating clubs.

Fan turn-out would be better than Hockey and in my opinion fan support would be mediocre to great with sell outs every weekend in the cities I listed. The NBA has a young demographic. Young people in Manchester (for example) will be begging to go to these games.

As far as young prospects: Think Jermaine O'neal, Gerald Green (highlight dunking alone draws crowds) and the Kendrick Perkins of the world.

I would also suggest adding a 3rd round to the NBA draft.

I don't know about fan support being "great."

The reason baseball is able to have such a successful minor league system (besides the fact that it's the nation's past time and has more roster flexibility) is because college baseball is pretty much irrelevant compared to other college sports - except for a handful of campuses.

In basketball's case, college basketball is huge and march madness continues to grow in popularity.  Most basketball fans have strong allegiences to either a college program, a pro team, or both.  I don't think you'd see all the 'Heel and Blue Devil faithful lineing up for tickets to see the Durham Dribblers.

I agree that, in places like New England, you could probably get a decent fan base, but i dunno about places like Memphis, Minnesotta, or Oklahoma.  
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: Donoghus on September 25, 2008, 01:19:02 PM
The problem with the current NBA system is the limited roster spots and on who those roster spots are spent. I don't care if it's through a minor league or what not, but the NBA has to allow teams to stockpile their talent some how.

What's the current consequence of the current system? Teams are forced to fill their roster spots on projects and unprepared players. Teams are forced to play lesser players on a roster instead of better proffesionals.

Currently, the only way teams have of going around this roster spot problem is by having rights to a player and sending them to play over Europe. That shouldn't be necessary. Teams should be allowed to keep 20-25 players under contract wether they make the final team roster or not.

This should allow teams to fill their team (the roster that actually plays) with people who are actually NBA ready and able to contribute. It should improve the skill level throughout the season. It'll also allow bad teams to rebuild quicker.

I really don't care how the NBA does it, but a system that allows teams to stockpile talent is a must in my opinion. And it starts by fixing the roster spots situation.

I agree, and a minor league team could provide up to 15 more roster spots...

If I could add, Donoghus,

The NBA can offer more then the NBDL with teams sharing rotating clubs.

Fan turn-out would be better than Hockey and in my opinion fan support would be mediocre to great with sell outs every weekend in the cities I listed. The NBA has a young demographic. Young people in Manchester (for example) will be begging to go to these games.

As far as young prospects: Think Jermaine O'neal, Gerald Green (highlight dunking alone draws crowds) and the Kendrick Perkins of the world.

I would also suggest adding a 3rd round to the NBA draft.

I think you're underestimating the significance of hockey in this region (New England).  Hockey, despite the waning interest in the NHL from the country, is still immensely popular here.  The problem, at least in my opinion, is that the Bruins have been so mediocre for so long that it might seem like the hockey interest is waning here.  Part of the problem, besides the product, is the ridiculous prices charged by Jacobs to attend a game.  For the most part, its more expensive than going to a Celtics game.  That's turned off a lot of people and alienated one of the great fanbases in all of sports (Bruins fans).  

I just thought I'd point out the attendance numbers for some local AHL teams.  I have serious doubts that an NBA farm system team could match these numbers.  Those numbers are pretty impressive (besides Lowell and Worceser post-IceCats) for a minor league.  AHL is one of the primary feeder systems into the NHL.

('07-08 Avg. Attendeance Numbers)

Manchester: 6,706
Providence: 6.107
Portland: 4,861
Hartford: 4,405
Worcester: 4,344
Springfield: 3,481
Lowell: 2,102

From a purely business standpoint, I just don't see the NBA investing in anything signficant for a minor league system.

I don't think people are going to go crazy to see a game involving some 19 year old kid out of high school who was second or third tier in the McDonalds All-American game one or two years ago.  I think most kids who do have NBA potential will do the year in college until they're eligible for the draft.  Under the current situation and using the NBA affiliations suggested, this league can't even use the top high school guys 'cause they're ineligible.
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: Chris on September 25, 2008, 01:56:37 PM
I think if the NBA could have a true minor league system, it would be great.  It would help both the players, and the league.

However, I just don't see it happening.  It is just way too much money.  The players association won't agree to it unless the players are still getting NBA salaries, and the owners are not going to play NBA salaries for so many players to fill out minor league teams with top talent. Since the main purpose of the minor leagues would be to develop the top young talent (meaning top of the draft guys), its just not going to work.

This is why Stern loves the fact that young players are starting to consider playing in Europe.  He knows that Europe can essentially become their minor leagues.  He knows that even if some players decide to stay in Europe, for every 1 that wants to stay, 100 will be coming right back to the NBA after some seasoning and maturing on someone else's dime.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 02:12:01 PM
It will never happen. For all intents and purposes NCAA basketball is the minor leagues for the NBA and it costs the NBA exactly zero dollars to run it. The NCAA takes kids and showcases them and gives them excellent talent to compete with while at the same time giving the young prospects time to mature.

Wow, I can't believe how many Cbers don't but into a legit Minor league system here...

For the players who want to go to College
I believe this system would help NCAA basketball "jeez, if I declare for the NBA now I'll be in the minors anyway. I like this atmosphere, I might as well finish my degree and develop my game here"

For players that don't want to go to college
This system can offer a legitimate alternative and an opportunity to stay in the USA

Quote
Why would the NBA want to set up a minor league system to develop players that will find it difficult to make a team as the 14th and 15th player on a team when the NCAA is already developing the majority of the 1st round picks that go on to be the stars, starters, and important bench players that make up most of the NBA? There's no incentive financially for them to do so.

I'm proposing they drop the age limit back down to 18 years old and add an additional in the draft. The result of this will contribute to a better NBA product as most 18 year olds were not ready to make an impact on an NBA roster but still taking up a roster spot.

I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 02:20:37 PM
Quote
I don't think people are going to go crazy to see a game involving some 19 year old kid out of high school who was second or third tier in the McDonalds All-American game one or two years ago.  I think most kids who do have NBA potential will do the year in college until they're eligible for the draft.  Under the current situation and using the NBA affiliations suggested, this league can't even use the top high school guys 'cause they're ineligible.(Donoghus)

I'm suggesting the age limit go back down to 18 and a 3rd round be added to the draft...
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: Chris on September 25, 2008, 02:27:36 PM
I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.

Why is it worth the investment though?  If they can't bring in major revenue that will offset the extra expenses of a farm team, and extra players on the payroll, it doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 02:35:23 PM
Quote
I don't know about fan support being "great."

The reason baseball is able to have such a successful minor league system (besides the fact that it's the nation's past time and has more roster flexibility) is because college baseball is pretty much irrelevant compared to other college sports - except for a handful of campuses.

In basketball's case, college basketball is huge and march madness continues to grow in popularity.  Most basketball fans have strong allegiences to either a college program, a pro team, or both.  I don't think you'd see all the 'Heel and Blue Devil faithful lineing up for tickets to see the Durham Dribblers.

I agree that, in places like New England, you could probably get a decent fan base, but i dunno about places like Memphis, Minnesotta, or Oklahoma.  (jgod213)

I would not suggest the places you've listed...

Areas of the country that would find success


2 coast Leagues
4 divisions
30 Teams

East:

Northeast (New England)

New York & East Central (Buffalo, Albany, Metro, South Jersey ect. Down to the Carolinas)

West:

Coast (Seattle to SD, Fresno, Metro ect.)

West Inland (Tempe, Reno ect.)



I don't think it's unrealistic but I could sure see why it wouldn't happen. I just think it would be cool. :)
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 02:38:09 PM
I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.

Why is it worth the investment though?  If they can't bring in major revenue that will offset the extra expenses of a farm team, and extra players on the payroll, it doesn't make much sense.

As I said, through marketing and the promotion of both there team and the game of basketball NBA Teams would achieve a ROI on a $7 -$10 million a year commitment....

Also, think it would also result in a (mature/better) NBA product.
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on September 25, 2008, 02:50:42 PM
For all I care they could keep the NBDL system as is, but the roster rules have to change. For example, teams should be able to send players to the NBDL without them counting against the 15-man roster.  These protect's the teams insterest in developing young assets (keeping their rights to them), while opening up roster spots for people that can actually perform in the NBA as is.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: Chris on September 25, 2008, 03:37:14 PM
I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.

Why is it worth the investment though?  If they can't bring in major revenue that will offset the extra expenses of a farm team, and extra players on the payroll, it doesn't make much sense.

As I said, through marketing and the promotion of both there team and the game of basketball NBA Teams would achieve a ROI on a $7 -$10 million a year commitment....

Also, think it would also result in a (mature/better) NBA product.

I missed that...but I am a little confused.  First, what is ROI?  Also, where are you getting the $7-$10 million figure?  And would this be all of the money that goes to the NBA owners?

I think the real problem here is that in order to have a true minor league system, the rosters are going to expand.  The only way the players association will buy into it is if 1. first round picks are still on pro contracts, and 2. they are convinced that this will open up more roster spots for veterans (which should be the case).  This means that instead of having 3 or 4 spots per team filled up with young guys on tiny contracts, those spots would then be filled with veterans on larger contracts.  Or put more simply, this is going to be a significant investment by the owners, and they will want to see very good reason for doing it.

I also think you are really overestimating the kind of interest there would be in this minor-league.  I think you need to look at the NBDL attendance to get an idea of what to expect.  And you are basically looking at attendance numbers anywhere from 700-3300 (based on 2006-2007 attendance numbers).  It might be slightly higher if there are more recognizable names on the teams, and they are in the same region as their affiliate, but I wouldn't expect too much more.  Remember, even the Celtics were having a very hard time filling seats just a couple of years ago.  If they are only bringing in that many people (or even twice that many), they are not going to be able to sustain in places like Lowell or Worcester (the price of operation at the Tsongas arena and Centrum would likely be higher than the actual ticket revenue...and they would likely just keep the dates open to try to attract concerts, which bring in much more money).
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: nickagneta on September 25, 2008, 03:41:24 PM
Jsaad, it's a commendable idea but the NBA will only invest money in global expansion and markets, not the super saturation of a market that already has two very successful forms of basketball in it, that being the NBA and the NCAA.

With the economy being like it is people have only so much money to spend for entertainment. Minor league basketball will not be one of them. But the economy in other parts of the world is growing and the entertainment dollars to be spent their could easily be spent on NBA quality basketball. With a South American division, a European division and a Southeast Asia/Australian division the NBA would tap into untold amounts of new NBA talent and bring in thousands times more money.

Think about it. Does the NBA want to invest in untapped giant metropolitan markets where they then might get kids who would ordinarily grow up playing soccer to then make basketball their main sport, expand the sport and make tons of cash, or do they want to invest in a minor league system where they might get 5000 people filling some nothing arena in Louisville, Birmingham, Nashua, Boise, Omaha, and Santa Fe?

Stern wants teams in Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid, Athens, Moscow, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janiero, Brasilia, and places of that ilk. The last thing he wants to do is try to squeeze more pennies out of the American market when there's billions to be made elsewhere.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 03:57:48 PM
I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.

Why is it worth the investment though?  If they can't bring in major revenue that will offset the extra expenses of a farm team, and extra players on the payroll, it doesn't make much sense.

As I said, through marketing and the promotion of both there team and the game of basketball NBA Teams would achieve a ROI on a $7 -$10 million a year commitment....

Also, think it would also result in a (mature/better) NBA product.

I missed that...but I am a little confused.  First, what is ROI?  Also, where are you getting the $7-$10 million figure?  And would this be all of the money that goes to the NBA owners?

I think the real problem here is that in order to have a true minor league system, the rosters are going to expand.  The only way the players association will buy into it is if 1. first round picks are still on pro contracts, and 2. they are convinced that this will open up more roster spots for veterans (which should be the case).  This means that instead of having 3 or 4 spots per team filled up with young guys on tiny contracts, those spots would then be filled with veterans on larger contracts.  Or put more simply, this is going to be a significant investment by the owners, and they will want to see very good reason for doing it.

I also think you are really overestimating the kind of interest there would be in this minor-league.  I think you need to look at the NBDL attendance to get an idea of what to expect.  And you are basically looking at attendance numbers anywhere from 700-3300 (based on 2006-2007 attendance numbers).  It might be slightly higher if there are more recognizable names on the teams, and they are in the same region as their affiliate, but I wouldn't expect too much more.  Remember, even the Celtics were having a very hard time filling seats just a couple of years ago.  If they are only bringing in that many people (or even twice that many), they are not going to be able to sustain in places like Lowell or Worcester (the price of operation at the Tsongas arena and Centrum would likely be higher than the actual ticket revenue...and they would likely just keep the dates open to try to attract concerts, which bring in much more money).

ROI = Return on investment. I estimated $7 - $10 Million max for Players and coaching staff. The owners of the club would be responsible for the rest (travel, lodge, venue, practice facility) just like baseball.

Contracts: (again like baseball)
Major league
Minor league

- Rookies stay the same with 3rd round picks making a tad less.
- Raise the salary cap and luxury Tax zone up by 10 million.

NBDL #'s would not be accurate for this league because teams have no affiliate of identity. Imagine if the Celtics have a Pawsox like minor league team in Lowell or Manchester!? The fact they are affiliated with the Celtics along would draw 4000 a night and sold out on weekends.

 

Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 04:13:19 PM
Jsaad, it's a commendable idea but the NBA will only invest money in global expansion and markets, not the super saturation of a market that already has two very successful forms of basketball in it, that being the NBA and the NCAA.

With the economy being like it is people have only so much money to spend for entertainment. Minor league basketball will not be one of them. But the economy in other parts of the world is growing and the entertainment dollars to be spent their could easily be spent on NBA quality basketball. With a South American division, a European division and a Southeast Asia/Australian division the NBA would tap into untold amounts of new NBA talent and bring in thousands times more money.

Think about it. Does the NBA want to invest in untapped giant metropolitan markets where they then might get kids who would ordinarily grow up playing soccer to then make basketball their main sport, expand the sport and make tons of cash, or do they want to invest in a minor league system where they might get 5000 people filling some nothing arena in Louisville, Birmingham, Nashua, Boise, Omaha, and Santa Fe?

Stern wants teams in Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid, Athens, Moscow, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janiero, Brasilia, and places of that ilk. The last thing he wants to do is try to squeeze more pennies out of the American market when there's billions to be made elsewhere.

Tp Nick, great point, there is more money and could be unspeakable amounts of talent developed is the places you've mentioned and a for-profit cooperation will go for the doe...

I do still believe a legit Minor league here in the states would be profitable, popular and allow the families that aren't going to NBA games now (because of the cost) the opportunity to see high level professional basketball.

But I concede, it probably won't happen...

If you have pocket Aces and given the choice are you going bet 1000 chips to $10,000 or $100,000,000?

Easy decision.
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: cordobes on September 25, 2008, 04:17:29 PM
I agree with Nick and Doug. The NCAA is already a formidable farm system. What would make that league more appealing than the NBDL, jsaad? And there's a reason why so many minor basketball leagues in the US have no success.

Allowing NBA franchises to keep more than 15 players under contract would only be significant if the salary cap is substantially raised. But that's a terrible idea in the long term, as would put most of the teams out of contention and eventually erode the fanbase.

Quote
Stern wants teams in Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid, Athens, Moscow, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janiero, Brasilia, and places of that ilk. The last thing he wants to do is try to squeeze more pennies out of the American market when there's billions to be made elsewhere.

I agree with your general reasoning Nick, but I think that the expansion is a terrible idea in the foreseeable future (apart from being a logistic nightmare). There aren't enough basketball/NBA fans, simple as that; and those that exist are mostly club fans - no Real Madrid (or Joventut, Siena, Maccabi, PAO, etc.) fan would change the allegiance from his club to some new NBA franchise.

But, as Stern has noticed, every basketball fan is a potential NBA fan. Eventually, he'll subscribe to sports channels that broadcast NBA games (check), buy apparel and NBA merchandising (check), spend some holidays in the US to see NBA games live (check) and be well aware of products and services offered by the NBA sponsors (check). The same can't be said about someone who doesn't even know the rules of the game - a sizable majority of the European population.

p.s. - Side note to Steve Weinman: in your next interview with Mr. Silver, you may want to ask him if it doesn't make more sense to offer international NBA fans the chance of buying the League Pass instead of talking about semi-utopic expansion projects. It's not like we don't have access to it anyway, they're just losing money.
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: Donoghus on September 25, 2008, 04:19:17 PM
I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.

Why is it worth the investment though?  If they can't bring in major revenue that will offset the extra expenses of a farm team, and extra players on the payroll, it doesn't make much sense.

As I said, through marketing and the promotion of both there team and the game of basketball NBA Teams would achieve a ROI on a $7 -$10 million a year commitment....

Also, think it would also result in a (mature/better) NBA product.

I missed that...but I am a little confused.  First, what is ROI?  Also, where are you getting the $7-$10 million figure?  And would this be all of the money that goes to the NBA owners?

I think the real problem here is that in order to have a true minor league system, the rosters are going to expand.  The only way the players association will buy into it is if 1. first round picks are still on pro contracts, and 2. they are convinced that this will open up more roster spots for veterans (which should be the case).  This means that instead of having 3 or 4 spots per team filled up with young guys on tiny contracts, those spots would then be filled with veterans on larger contracts.  Or put more simply, this is going to be a significant investment by the owners, and they will want to see very good reason for doing it.

I also think you are really overestimating the kind of interest there would be in this minor-league.  I think you need to look at the NBDL attendance to get an idea of what to expect.  And you are basically looking at attendance numbers anywhere from 700-3300 (based on 2006-2007 attendance numbers).  It might be slightly higher if there are more recognizable names on the teams, and they are in the same region as their affiliate, but I wouldn't expect too much more.  Remember, even the Celtics were having a very hard time filling seats just a couple of years ago.  If they are only bringing in that many people (or even twice that many), they are not going to be able to sustain in places like Lowell or Worcester (the price of operation at the Tsongas arena and Centrum would likely be higher than the actual ticket revenue...and they would likely just keep the dates open to try to attract concerts, which bring in much more money).

ROI = Return on investment. I estimated $7 - $10 Million max for Players and coaching staff. The owners of the club would be responsible for the rest (travel, lodge, venue, practice facility) just like baseball.

Contracts: (again like baseball)
Major league
Minor league

- Rookies stay the same with 3rd round picks making a tad less.
- Raise the salary cap and luxury Tax zone up by 10 million.

NBDL #'s would not be accurate for this league because teams have no affiliate of identity. Imagine if the Celtics have a Pawsox like minor league team in Lowell or Manchester!? The fact they are affiliated with the Celtics along would draw 4000 a night and sold out on weekends.

 



I have serious doubts that a minor league team consisting on one or two guys who might crack an NBA roster and a bunch of nobodies will draw in serious crowds despite the affiliation.  

I really don't think that you'll get 5,000 people to see Bill Walker & Friends take on Josh McRoberts & Crew.

  
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: PerkinsERA43 on September 25, 2008, 06:39:03 PM
what should happen is that the NBA adjusts to a system much like soccer. Professional soccer teams have an active roster of about 15, with 11 starters and 4-7 subs who can come in at any time (with a limit of 3 total substitutions per game). Then, each team has a large group of 8-12 reserve players. These players are under contract, practice with the team, but until they are designated as either substitutes or starters, they are not allowed to enter game action. This would allow teams to stockpile talent, and actually have more project big men pan out. Of course, you could never have 8-12 reserves, since there are only 5 men on the court at a time. Something like 4-6 sounds reasonable.

The idea of a minor league is a good one in theory, but no one would watch the games, and it would hemmorage money. The reserve system, I think, is the ideal middle ground. Score one for Futbol.


/ERA
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: nickagneta on September 25, 2008, 09:46:24 PM
I agree with Nick and Doug. The NCAA is already a formidable farm system. What would make that league more appealing than the NBDL, jsaad? And there's a reason why so many minor basketball leagues in the US have no success.

Allowing NBA franchises to keep more than 15 players under contract would only be significant if the salary cap is substantially raised. But that's a terrible idea in the long term, as would put most of the teams out of contention and eventually erode the fanbase.

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Stern wants teams in Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid, Athens, Moscow, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janiero, Brasilia, and places of that ilk. The last thing he wants to do is try to squeeze more pennies out of the American market when there's billions to be made elsewhere.

I agree with your general reasoning Nick, but I think that the expansion is a terrible idea in the foreseeable future (apart from being a logistic nightmare). There aren't enough basketball/NBA fans, simple as that; and those that exist are mostly club fans - no Real Madrid (or Joventut, Siena, Maccabi, PAO, etc.) fan would change the allegiance from his club to some new NBA franchise.

But, as Stern has noticed, every basketball fan is a potential NBA fan. Eventually, he'll subscribe to sports channels that broadcast NBA games (check), buy apparel and NBA merchandising (check), spend some holidays in the US to see NBA games live (check) and be well aware of products and services offered by the NBA sponsors (check). The same can't be said about someone who doesn't even know the rules of the game - a sizable majority of the European population.

p.s. - Side note to Steve Weinman: in your next interview with Mr. Silver, you may want to ask him if it doesn't make more sense to offer international NBA fans the chance of buying the League Pass instead of talking about semi-utopic expansion projects. It's not like we don't have access to it anyway, they're just losing money.
I agree cordobes. I am not sure logistically that the NBA could ever pull off the expansion I suggested but I do believe that the idea is Stern's long term dream for the sport and something he would be more willing to invest in for the future rather than a minor league system.

Also, if Stern is going to pull off something like that it would more than likely have to be a situation where the existing teams(Olympiakos, Maccabi T.A., CSKA Moscow, Real Madrid, etc.) in cities the NBA would expand to would be teams that would be brought into the NBA circa the ABA-NBA merger. That way Stern could set up an American League and an International League like baseball with each league playing exclusively with teams in their league and then have a true World Championship after each league crowns it's champion.

Anyway, I think that would be the only feasible way of doing it and it would mean investing a ton money into some of these teams and their facilities. Just an idea by that is something that Stern would invest in.
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: JSD on September 25, 2008, 11:57:36 PM
Nick, Why has David Stern and the NBA invested into the WNBA? The Woman's league has never had a single profitable season.
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: Gainesville Celtic on September 26, 2008, 12:56:34 AM
Jsaad I agree with you 10000% about the benefits of a true Triple A minor league -- it will let trams like the Cs keep giddens, pruitt etc in the minors and instead spend the money on a guy like pargo who's proven he belongs ib the NBA.

On other role of a minor leauge system -- teams would be wise to draft semi-regionally. Guys like gerry macnamara, dan cross (4 year UF guard) etc have followings in college and while they may never be NBA all-stars can clearly play the game.

Finally some of the costs would be paid for through local sponsorships.

And I know that I'd follow the Tampa or Jackdsonville magic and see them when they'd play the worcester celtics.

Just my 4 cents :)
Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: JSD on September 26, 2008, 07:21:08 AM
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I have serious doubts that a minor league team consisting on one or two guys who might crack an NBA roster and a bunch of nobodies will draw in serious crowds despite the affiliation. 

I really don't think that you'll get 5,000 people to see Bill Walker & Friends take on Josh McRoberts & Crew.(Donoghus)

Wouldn't you agree people are infatuated with the P word? <potential>... I think it would be a fascinating league and I'm confident many others would.

Gabe Pruitt, Bill walker,  Semih Erden and possibly O'Bryant, Darious miles and Giddens would all be getting some minor league love at some point this season.
Also consider rehab starts. Tony Allen could have been starting in the league a good portion of last season and would have benefited from it on many different levels (especially the confidence department).
Title: Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
Post by: thebirdman on September 26, 2008, 07:55:32 AM
So how much would these guys get payed? There is no way a European prospect would come over to play in some "minor" league for small money...

Title: Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
Post by: Donoghus on September 26, 2008, 10:11:31 AM
Quote
I have serious doubts that a minor league team consisting on one or two guys who might crack an NBA roster and a bunch of nobodies will draw in serious crowds despite the affiliation. 

I really don't think that you'll get 5,000 people to see Bill Walker & Friends take on Josh McRoberts & Crew.(Donoghus)

Wouldn't you agree people are infatuated with the P word? <potential>... I think it would be a fascinating league and I'm confident many others would.

Gabe Pruitt, Bill walker,  Semih Erden and possibly O'Bryant, Darious miles and Giddens would all be getting some minor league love at some point this season.
Also consider rehab starts. Tony Allen could have been starting in the league a good portion of last season and would have benefited from it on many different levels (especially the confidence department).


People do like potential.  Minor league baseball is thriving due in large part to that.  The problem is that I don't really see many legit NBA potential guys playing in this league for several reasons.  Top talent (1st round picks and some 2nd rounders) are going to go straight to an NBA roster.  The rest of these guys are going to have an outside chance, at best, at ever seen an NBA roster.  So you're talking about guys who are held by NBA teams but don't realistically have much of a shot at making an NBA roster.  Most of the NBA ready talent that can't get drafted yet are going to be playing NCAA basketball.  That's the way its been and that's the way I seeing it continuing. 

Its pretty obvious that you're not the typical, casual basketball fan.  I have NO doubts that this league would be of interest to YOU.  However, the names Gabe Pruitt, Semith Erden and such are not going to attract the typical casual basketball fan to the arena.  I don't see the interest level being extremely high among the non-diehards.  From that point alone, I don't see the NBA investing in something like this.  They already the NBDL and if they're getting guys from the NCAA and Europe at no cost to them, why would they want to pump money into something?