Thoughts about Kobe & Jordan

[Dybdal]

Yesterday i think we saw the closest thing to Michael Jordan in this era when Kobe was hanging half way out of bounds, toung out and making a one handed layup. That was.. something special not alot of people can do that.

Why do i say that? because thats the first thing that came to mind to my friend who sat next to me when i saw it.. or rather that was the first thing he shouted into my ear followed by a long sylabal that sounded like i was shouted by Macho Man Randy Savage (yeah it was loud)

But after we sat though the rest of the game, listening to my friend whining about loosing another game and me being a jerk and rubbing it in that his team lost .. again we started rehashing that yay old Jordan-vs-Bryant conversation but for once we agreeed on one thing, Kobe Bryant will never win that conversation. ever.

Forget all the straight up comparisons of how Kobe's playing style reminds people of Jordan, its not going to make lickty split difference if Kobe wins more championships or MVP awards than Jordan because Jordan had something in his run in the NBA that Kobe will never ever get.. that mystique that most people call "the greatness of Jordan" is what im talking about.. but it really is more luck than anything.

Think about it like this, what if Michael Jordan wasnt the bar set for greatness what if he had never exsisted and Kobe Bryant was the bar of greatness and Lebron was the Air Aperent and then someone was to tell you the story of Michael Jordan to someone in a bar, would you even begin to believe that to be possible?

The instant impact he had, The First 3 Championships, The most will strong athlete in NBA history, The Shot in Cleveland, The Flu game, The Dreamteam and Jordan mania in Barcelona, the tragic side story of how the hero fell when his dad died and he left Basketball for Baseball to honor his dad, the heros rise back up from the deapths to take on the impossible hurdle and win another 3 championships?

This stuff reads just like a fairy tale, you could take every aspect of Jordan's run though the NBA and loosly translate it into a fantasy setting and release it as a book and it would be enjoyable and that is why Kobe Bryant will never.. or anyone for that matter will never reach the platau that Jordan went to and its not going to be something that can be messured in skill or ability, hell just look at Wilt.. he avaraged 50 points in a season and scored a 100 in a game and still 99% will still say Jordan.

Jordan was born on a bed made of 11 leaf clovers.

[Roy Hobbs]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

[Fafnir]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

Kobe is the fourth best player of his rough era, so he can't be the bar of greatness.

Shaq, KG, and Duncan were all better players who've had greater careers.

[Dybdal]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

It wasnt meant as what if Jordan never exsisted, then it would be Kobe by default, in my little rant here im not taking into account anyone else other than Kobe & Jordan (my opinon is that a combination of Magic & Bird most likely is the best player to have ever played this game, thats again just by my own opinon based on what kind of basketball i like to see) but try to forget for a moment, play into that ya old Kobe vs Jordan talk as if they every media expert was right when they say they are miles ahead of everyone else.

[FallGuy]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

Kobe is the fourth best player of his rough era, so he can't be the bar of greatness.

Shaq, KG, and Duncan were all better players who've had greater careers.

I love KG and I don't love Kobe but I'd like to hear the argument that KG has had a better career. I think you're climbing uphill on that one.

[footey]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

Kobe is the fourth best player of his rough era, so he can't be the bar of greatness.

Shaq, KG, and Duncan were all better players who've had greater careers.

I love KG and I don't love Kobe but I'd like to hear the argument that KG has had a better career. I think you're climbing uphill on that one.

Ditto.

[Fafnir]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

Kobe is the fourth best player of his rough era, so he can't be the bar of greatness.

Shaq, KG, and Duncan were all better players who've had greater careers.

I love KG and I don't love Kobe but I'd like to hear the argument that KG has had a better career. I think you're climbing uphill on that one.

Depends on how you view careers, are you one of the "count the rings" people?

KG has had more MVP quality years, produced more, and had a greater impact on both ends of the court than Kobe. KG has had virtually the same impact as Duncan, do you agree that Duncan has had a better career than Kobe?

Put KG on a team with Shaq during Shaq's prime and what do you think happens?

Part of KG/Duncan's/Shaq's value is that they area all 7 footers, and are rarer than SGs. But that's just part of basketball of course.

[FallGuy]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

Kobe is the fourth best player of his rough era, so he can't be the bar of greatness.

Shaq, KG, and Duncan were all better players who've had greater careers.

I love KG and I don't love Kobe but I'd like to hear the argument that KG has had a better career. I think you're climbing uphill on that one.

Depends on how you view careers, are you one of the "count the rings" people?

KG has had more MVP quality years, produced more, and had a greater impact on both ends of the court than Kobe.

Put KG on a team with Shaq during Shaq's prime and what do you think happens?

I actually think the Kobe vs. KG argument is closer than most but you can't ignore the rings. Kobe has four times as many.

What do you mean - "produced more"?

And while I happily concede KG's a better defensive player, on offense, how do you see that comparison?

[Fafnir]

If MJ never existed, the bar of greatness *still* wouldn't be Kobe.  He's not even in the top five.

When he's hot, though, Kobe can do some crazy things with the ball.  He's got more range than MJ, and makes more circus shots (probably because he takes more circus shots.)

Kobe is the fourth best player of his rough era, so he can't be the bar of greatness.

Shaq, KG, and Duncan were all better players who've had greater careers.

I love KG and I don't love Kobe but I'd like to hear the argument that KG has had a better career. I think you're climbing uphill on that one.

Depends on how you view careers, are you one of the "count the rings" people?

KG has had more MVP quality years, produced more, and had a greater impact on both ends of the court than Kobe.

Put KG on a team with Shaq during Shaq's prime and what do you think happens?

I actually think the Kobe vs. KG argument is closer than most but you can't ignore the rings. Kobe has four times as many.

What do you mean - "produced more"?

And while I happily concede KG's a better defensive player, on offense, how do you see that comparison?

Kobe didn't win any rings, the Laker's did. Kobe was only the best player for one title team, same as KG. And KG's ring came directly against Kobe.

KG has been just as efficient on the offensive end, take a look. Kobe has just shot more over the course of his career. Offensively they're equal, maybe slight edge Kobe if you really care about .009 TS% and .8 more assists.

But then you have to consider the defensive end of the court, and KG blows Kobe away in that department.

When I say productive I mean producing for his team, that's possessions/points/rebounds everything. KG has done more for his team's than Kobe has over their careers. Both in absolute terms and on a per minute basis.

[Kiorrik]

Good opening post. Agree to the fullest. Being accused of rape doesn't help Kobe either.

[Dybdal]

Good opening post. Agree to the fullest. Being accused of rape doesn't help Kobe either.

Thanks, seems as though the thread has taken a life of its own but cant blame people as when your talking about the greatest ever things tends to get opinonated very uickly.

The point of the thread was more based around MJ's carrer being a one in a million (lucky) and thats why no one will ever catch up to him.. unless we somehow clone a lepracauhn with Birds DNA.. as a matter of fact thats a great idea

Must... find... leprachaun

[dlpin]

The instant impact he had, The First 3 Championships, The most will strong athlete in NBA history, The Shot in Cleveland, The Flu game, The Dreamteam and Jordan mania in Barcelona, the tragic side story of how the hero fell when his dad died and he left Basketball for Baseball to honor his dad, the heros rise back up from the deapths to take on the impossible hurdle and win another 3 championships?

This stuff reads just like a fairy tale, you could take every aspect of Jordan's run though the NBA and loosly translate it into a fantasy setting and release it as a book and it would be enjoyable and that is why Kobe Bryant will never.. or anyone for that matter will never reach the platau that Jordan went to and its not going to be something that can be messured in skill or ability, hell just look at Wilt.. he avaraged 50 points in a season and scored a 100 in a game and still 99% will still say Jordan.

Jordan was born on a bed made of 11 leaf clovers.

Clovers? Are you saying that was luck? How can that be luck when he had a direct hand in everything except the creation of the dream team and his dad's issue?

[Kiorrik]

The instant impact he had, The First 3 Championships, The most will strong athlete in NBA history, The Shot in Cleveland, The Flu game, The Dreamteam and Jordan mania in Barcelona, the tragic side story of how the hero fell when his dad died and he left Basketball for Baseball to honor his dad, the heros rise back up from the deapths to take on the impossible hurdle and win another 3 championships?

This stuff reads just like a fairy tale, you could take every aspect of Jordan's run though the NBA and loosly translate it into a fantasy setting and release it as a book and it would be enjoyable and that is why Kobe Bryant will never.. or anyone for that matter will never reach the platau that Jordan went to and its not going to be something that can be messured in skill or ability, hell just look at Wilt.. he avaraged 50 points in a season and scored a 100 in a game and still 99% will still say Jordan.

Jordan was born on a bed made of 11 leaf clovers.

Clovers? Are you saying that was luck? How can that be luck when he had a direct hand in everything except the creation of the dream team and his dad's issue?

In Dybdals defense, Michael Jordan was:

1) A great basketball player
2) A smart guy
3) Brilliantly marketed
4) At the right time
5) A very nice guy (at least to the media, count this one under brilliantly marketed)

A few of those things are of his own hand, some other ones are luck.

[Kiorrik]

Good opening post. Agree to the fullest. Being accused of rape doesn't help Kobe either.

Thanks, seems as though the thread has taken a life of its own but cant blame people as when your talking about the greatest ever things tends to get opinonated very uickly.

The point of the thread was more based around MJ's carrer being a one in a million (lucky) and thats why no one will ever catch up to him.. unless we somehow clone a lepracauhn with Birds DNA.. as a matter of fact thats a great idea

Must... find... leprachaun

Myeh, I get what you're saying though; Jordan had luck on his side in being at the right place at the right time. He was exactly what basketball needed, and thus embraced. Also, he was a great athlete, competitor and a high IQ basketball player.

It was kinda sorta "the perfect storm".

[Dybdal]

The instant impact he had, The First 3 Championships, The most will strong athlete in NBA history, The Shot in Cleveland, The Flu game, The Dreamteam and Jordan mania in Barcelona, the tragic side story of how the hero fell when his dad died and he left Basketball for Baseball to honor his dad, the heros rise back up from the deapths to take on the impossible hurdle and win another 3 championships?

This stuff reads just like a fairy tale, you could take every aspect of Jordan's run though the NBA and loosly translate it into a fantasy setting and release it as a book and it would be enjoyable and that is why Kobe Bryant will never.. or anyone for that matter will never reach the platau that Jordan went to and its not going to be something that can be messured in skill or ability, hell just look at Wilt.. he avaraged 50 points in a season and scored a 100 in a game and still 99% will still say Jordan.

Jordan was born on a bed made of 11 leaf clovers.

Clovers? Are you saying that was luck? How can that be luck when he had a direct hand in everything except the creation of the dream team and his dad's issue?

Yeah i am saying that the stars aligned just right for Michael Jordan, when you look back at it in retrospective alot went right for Michael Jordan that simply wont go right for others down the line.

He got sick against the Jazz in a must win sitiuation back then it would have been called very bad luck, but when your looking at it retrospectively that game added so much to his legacy, what if he wasnt sick that day? and they still won by the same margin?

What if he was injured after the 1992 season and didnt go with the Dreamteam?

What if he had stayed with Basketball and didnt have his stint with Baseball? would the Bulls win another championship with a un-motivated Jordan? what would that have done to his legacy?

And what about suffering a major injury? that didnt happen.

Am i taking anything away from Michael Jordan as a person or player? absolutly not, but during his years when he was building his legacy.. not a whole lot went wrong for Michael Jordan and that does make him lucky in my book.

edit: Before everyone goes off on me, luck does not take away from Skill or Ability, everyone is lucky to some extent is what i believe, Jordan just had more of it than most will have in a lifetime, if Pippen wasnt Born who knows what would have happend with Jordan's carrer, that dosnt make him any less of a Basketball player. Its a game of "What If"

But within my hypothesis, tell me this then.. would you believe the story of Michael Jordan's carrer if he had never exsisted? this is what interrested me during the conversation i had with my best friend, because i dont think i would.