2019 Historical Draft Thread(TIME TO REVEAL THE WINNER!!!)

[Who]

LeBron was the guy I was most unsure of how to build around when entering the draft (if I were to land a pick high enough to get him).

Play him at SF. Go big and play him at PG. Go small and play him at PF. What type of big man would he play well with? Based on his level of success with his previous bigs (star ones, role player ones, older ones like Shaq). What type of PG would LeBron best play with? The wings were easier. More straight forward figure out which ones of them would work best with LBJ.

Although I have a firm idea now on how I would build around him but I was genuinely confused about how to do it prior to the draft. Far more so than any other player.

Largely because of how ball-dominant LeBron is.

...........

Also, I had no idea how I would build around Wilt. Never thought of drafting him. Bird was my first choice. My 2nd choice hasn't been picked yet. I'll say it when he is selected. Probably would been considered the biggest reach of the 1st since I was at #5. My 3rd choice was Hakeem.

Starting to get an idea of what I want to do with Wilt now though.

[Moranis]

I think there is a value in guys who don't need the ball in their hands all of the time. That is something I like about Kawhi. He can get you 25-30 but he does it in a way that doesn't effect negatively anyone else.

He allows everyone else time on the ball to express their own talents and show what they can do. Plus, he has the shooting range to provide floor spacing to give them room to what they want to do.

He is not dribbling the air out of the ball. He is taking bad shots (stealing shots from teammates). He is not a ball stopper (taking too long to decide while defense loads up on him). He is not killing your floor spacing or clogging the lane when of the ball(like my guy Wilt).

He allows everyone around him to operate at their fullest capacity.

......

This may be a negative issue when you surround him with a bunch of role players who are more limited offensively but in a game like this where you are surrounded with the best whoever played - it is an asset.

His best season (aka this year) was actually a bit of the opposite-he was a black hole whenever he touched the ball and had a pretty high usage rate. Not the best pick, but if you use him as a pure scorer+spot up shooter as well as a defensive specialist I can see the logic.

I don't see Kawhi's passing that way (black hole). He is not good at making the most incisive pass like LeBron is but Kawhi did draw help defense and move the basketball well when doubled. He gave the ball to a teammate in space with time to do something with it.

Was it the best possible pass? No (finding open teammate opposite side of court or waiting and finding a cutter for a layup - no)

Was it a good pass? Yes

Did it help team ball movement? Yes


.........

I think Kawhi's assists per game undersell the quality of his passing last season. Just because he wasn't making the killer pass doesn't mean he wasn't making good passes and enabling good team offense.

I don't actually think this past season was Kawhi's best season.  Either of his last two "full" seasons in San Antonio he was better in my opinion (higher WS/48, higher VORP, BPM, etc.), plus he played more games so you get more out of him.  he also was better awarded those seasons finishing in the top 3 of MVP and winning his 2nd DPOY the first year and finishing 3rd the last full year in San An.  And that last year there, they easily could have won the title had Kawhi not gone down in game 1 of the WCF so I don't even know that you can say well he won the title this year so he was better this year.

This is the type of thing that can be debated about any of the great players.  I, for example, have no idea which season I will end up using from Magic.  Probably will use 86/87, but am thinking about 81/82 or 89/90 for different reasons.  Early Magic was a much more active defensive player while later Magic was a pretty decent 3 point shooter.  Those could be more useful skills than just going with Magic at his absolute peak (i.e. 87). 

[Somebody]

I think there is a value in guys who don't need the ball in their hands all of the time. That is something I like about Kawhi. He can get you 25-30 but he does it in a way that doesn't effect negatively anyone else.

He allows everyone else time on the ball to express their own talents and show what they can do. Plus, he has the shooting range to provide floor spacing to give them room to what they want to do.

He is not dribbling the air out of the ball. He is taking bad shots (stealing shots from teammates). He is not a ball stopper (taking too long to decide while defense loads up on him). He is not killing your floor spacing or clogging the lane when of the ball(like my guy Wilt).

He allows everyone around him to operate at their fullest capacity.

......

This may be a negative issue when you surround him with a bunch of role players who are more limited offensively but in a game like this where you are surrounded with the best whoever played - it is an asset.

His best season (aka this year) was actually a bit of the opposite-he was a black hole whenever he touched the ball and had a pretty high usage rate. Not the best pick, but if you use him as a pure scorer+spot up shooter as well as a defensive specialist I can see the logic.

I don't see Kawhi's passing that way (black hole). He is not good at making the most incisive pass like LeBron is but Kawhi did draw help defense and move the basketball well when doubled. He gave the ball to a teammate in space with time to do something with it.

Was it the best possible pass? No (finding open teammate opposite side of court or waiting and finding a cutter for a layup - no)

Was it a good pass? Yes

Did it help team ball movement? Yes


.........

I think Kawhi's assists per game undersell the quality of his passing last season. Just because he wasn't making the killer pass doesn't mean he wasn't making good passes and enabling good team offense.

Agreed, black hole might've been too strong of a word. But most greats have at least enough creation abilities to exploit the double, while what Kawhi does is pretty much just pass out of it. Just don't see him creating enough value on offense to justify such a high pick, although it wasn't horrible. Definitely makes things interesting.

Yeah, I don't see Kawhi as the offensive engine of his team.

I see him more as a highly effective & efficient scorer without needing to dominate the ball so you can easily slot other high powered offensive players next to him. Allowing you to build a strong team offense another way.

Out of the players chosen in the first round, LeBron is the one I am most concerned about in terms of putting top offensive players around because he is so ball dominant. He is absolutely phenomenal at getting the best out of role players but he hasn't been as successful with his star teammates (who I cannot name). Those stars all had difficulties being their best self next to him.

My guy Wilt and also Shaq are two others who are more difficult because they are both paint dwellers who don't ever want to leave the basket area. So there are less opportunities for teammates to play in that area of the court.

Kobe would be another guy because he is such a shot happy player even when he did play with multiple star teammates and also in All-Star games and Team USA games.

It's why I dropped Bron to #3 on my draft board. Btw Shaq is perfectly scalable with his willingness and ability to pass by warping the defense instead of hunting for "Rondo assists" ala Wilt if you have enough spacing around him. To me Shaq is the easiest one to fit in any scheme out of the three.

[Who]

I mean, LeBron is easy to build around in terms of role players.

You go four out one in. Lots of shooting and a rim runner. It is easy to find players who fit those roles and are happy in those roles. If you are lucky you can get a 2nd star next to him and make that fit well.

But on a team full of stars ...

How many stars would be happy in such a lesser role offensively? Standing around watching LeBron do his thing.

And if they are not doing that and LeBron is playing more like he did on those Team USA teams ... just how valuable is LeBron? Is he is still a consensus top 4 pick in an All-Time draft? Or is he more like a 15-25 pick? Like a certain other do-it-all SF is likely to be.

LeBron is an interesting guy. The versatility. The style of play. That team could go in so many different ways. Some of them wonderful. Some really good. A few that are not.

I am really excited to see what happens with LeBron's team. It has a strange mix of flexibility (LeBron's position) and limitations (LeBron's style of play -- if trying to maximize LeBron's value). Or go another way again and make him the do-it-all hole filler like on Team USA who has big value but probably not top 10 top 5 all time value in such a role.

[Somebody]

I think there is a value in guys who don't need the ball in their hands all of the time. That is something I like about Kawhi. He can get you 25-30 but he does it in a way that doesn't effect negatively anyone else.

He allows everyone else time on the ball to express their own talents and show what they can do. Plus, he has the shooting range to provide floor spacing to give them room to what they want to do.

He is not dribbling the air out of the ball. He is taking bad shots (stealing shots from teammates). He is not a ball stopper (taking too long to decide while defense loads up on him). He is not killing your floor spacing or clogging the lane when of the ball(like my guy Wilt).

He allows everyone around him to operate at their fullest capacity.

......

This may be a negative issue when you surround him with a bunch of role players who are more limited offensively but in a game like this where you are surrounded with the best whoever played - it is an asset.

His best season (aka this year) was actually a bit of the opposite-he was a black hole whenever he touched the ball and had a pretty high usage rate. Not the best pick, but if you use him as a pure scorer+spot up shooter as well as a defensive specialist I can see the logic.

I don't see Kawhi's passing that way (black hole). He is not good at making the most incisive pass like LeBron is but Kawhi did draw help defense and move the basketball well when doubled. He gave the ball to a teammate in space with time to do something with it.

Was it the best possible pass? No (finding open teammate opposite side of court or waiting and finding a cutter for a layup - no)

Was it a good pass? Yes

Did it help team ball movement? Yes


.........

I think Kawhi's assists per game undersell the quality of his passing last season. Just because he wasn't making the killer pass doesn't mean he wasn't making good passes and enabling good team offense.

I don't actually think this past season was Kawhi's best season.  Either of his last two "full" seasons in San Antonio he was better in my opinion (higher WS/48, higher VORP, BPM, etc.), plus he played more games so you get more out of him.  he also was better awarded those seasons finishing in the top 3 of MVP and winning his 2nd DPOY the first year and finishing 3rd the last full year in San An.  And that last year there, they easily could have won the title had Kawhi not gone down in game 1 of the WCF so I don't even know that you can say well he won the title this year so he was better this year.

This is the type of thing that can be debated about any of the great players.  I, for example, have no idea which season I will end up using from Magic.  Probably will use 86/87, but am thinking about 81/82 or 89/90 for different reasons.  Early Magic was a much more active defensive player while later Magic was a pretty decent 3 point shooter.  Those could be more useful skills than just going with Magic at his absolute peak (i.e. 87).

Old Magic would be a good choice, not sure about young Magic due to his worrisome team stats though.

[Somebody]

LeBron was the guy I was most unsure of how to build around when entering the draft (if I were to land a pick high enough to get him).

Play him at SF. Go big and play him at PG. Go small and play him at PF. What type of big man would he play well with? Based on his level of success with his previous bigs (star ones, role player ones, older ones like Shaq). What type of PG would LeBron best play with? The wings were easier. More straight forward figure out which ones of them would work best with LBJ.

Although I have a firm idea now on how I would build around him but I was genuinely confused about how to do it prior to the draft. Far more so than any other player.

Largely because of how ball-dominant LeBron is.

...........

Also, I had no idea how I would build around Wilt. Never thought of drafting him. Bird was my first choice. My 2nd choice hasn't been picked yet. I'll say it when he is selected. Probably would been considered the biggest reach of the 1st since I was at #5. My 3rd choice was Hakeem.

Starting to get an idea of what I want to do with Wilt now though.

Imo the biggest reach was Kawhi. Wilt wasn't a horrible pick at #5.

[Who]

I don't actually think this past season was Kawhi's best season.  Either of his last two "full" seasons in San Antonio he was better in my opinion (higher WS/48, higher VORP, BPM, etc.), plus he played more games so you get more out of him.  he also was better awarded those seasons finishing in the top 3 of MVP and winning his 2nd DPOY the first year and finishing 3rd the last full year in San An.  And that last year there, they easily could have won the title had Kawhi not gone down in game 1 of the WCF so I don't even know that you can say well he won the title this year so he was better this year.

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing when I was thinking about drafting Kawhi.

(1) 2019 - worst regular season of the 3 years but phenomenal postseason, incredible numbers and led a good but unexceptional team to a title
(2) 2017 - phenomenal year but season ending injury in postseason (which I have a hard time looking past)
(3) 2016 - his passing was his worst. Least success in terms of bringing his team together. Most iso-dependent and least team orientated on the offensive side of the floor.

I decided 2019 because of the postseason. That carried the most weight with me.

Also it was his 3rd year at near MVP level. That carried weight with me too. Even though we are looking at individual seasons, the years around point to whether something was a fluke or not. How sustainable it was. How well it would translate to other teams and different roles.

So I decided I didn't care about the 20 missed regular season games and rated his postseason leading a team a Championship over his two other postseasons by a large degree. I prefer to think of these guys as healthy (right or wrong).

But yeah, Kawhi's season were uneven.

That did give me pause when thinking about drafting him before deciding to go ahead with it if he were available in the 2nd round and deciding on the 2019 season as my pick.

[Moranis]

6. Reach. Magic’s offense was incredible-he led one of the greatest offensive dynasties (even better than Bird’s Celtics) if not the greatest in his prime. However, his ball dominance and only average defense doesn’t endear me to the idea of picking him at #6.

I'm interested in this ball dominance you think Magic had.  At his absolute peak he only had a usage of 26.3 and his career usage is only 22.3.  I suspect those are both the lowest of any player that has been drafted so far and any player that will likely be drafted in round 2 (and perhaps round 3 as well).  Those Lakers teams thrived on ball movement and fast breaks.  Yes, Magic got a lot of assists, but he absolutely moved the ball and did so with ease.  He was never a black hole or a ball stopper.  I've honestly never heard Magic described as ball dominant and am curious why you believe that was the case.   

[Who]

I love 1987 Magic. The guy was a beast that year.

1991 Magic had a great year but more in terms of Magic's style of play being a star who elevated lesser players than a star fitting in on a team full of stars.

So for a game like this, I prefer his years when the Lakers were strong. It is a better indication of how he fits with other top players. LAL's best team was 1987 (doubles with Magic's best year which is nice) but also had great teams in 1985 and early 80s.

I would lean to any of those years over Magic's 1991 season (which was a one-man show type of team a lot of the time - a .500 team that Magic turned into a Finals team). Magic more ball dominant and iso dominant (also due to coach's preferred style of play) than earlier versions of Magic.



Edit: Also, I prefer Magic when he was the PG rather than a SG/SF so his years from 1984 to 1988 would be my main selection years with 1987 or 1985 the most likely choices.

The guy is so good with ball in the hands ... I just don't want to pair Magic with another PG in this fantasy league and have him spend more time off the ball.

[Who]

6. Reach. Magic’s offense was incredible-he led one of the greatest offensive dynasties (even better than Bird’s Celtics) if not the greatest in his prime. However, his ball dominance and only average defense doesn’t endear me to the idea of picking him at #6.

I'm interested in this ball dominance you think Magic had.  At his absolute peak he only had a usage of 26.3 and his career usage is only 22.3.  I suspect those are both the lowest of any player that has been drafted so far and any player that will likely be drafted in round 2 (and perhaps round 3 as well).  Those Lakers teams thrived on ball movement and fast breaks.  Yes, Magic got a lot of assists, but he absolutely moved the ball and did so with ease.  He was never a black hole or a ball stopper.  I've honestly never heard Magic described as ball dominant and am curious why you believe that was the case.

I thought Magic became ball dominant in 1990 and 1991. Largely out of necessity and also because that was the style his coach (Dunleavy) wanted. Less running. More halfcourt. More post ups. More isolations. 

I never thought of Magic as ball dominant in his earlier years when Kareem was around. Magic was (along with Bird) the ultimate teammate on the offensive side of the court.

He created so much for his teammates. So many layups. All those fastbreaks, hitting the cutter, drawing help defenders and getting teammates open. Unreal how much he created for his teammates and he did it without dominating the ball unlike the premier PGs of today's league.

[Silky]

so much basketball discussion.

I love it.

[Celtic Fan Forever]

LeBron was the guy I was most unsure of how to build around when entering the draft (if I were to land a pick high enough to get him).

Play him at SF. Go big and play him at PG. Go small and play him at PF. What type of big man would he play well with? Based on his level of success with his previous bigs (star ones, role player ones, older ones like Shaq). What type of PG would LeBron best play with? The wings were easier. More straight forward figure out which ones of them would work best with LBJ.

Although I have a firm idea now on how I would build around him but I was genuinely confused about how to do it prior to the draft. Far more so than any other player.

Largely because of how ball-dominant LeBron is.

...........

Also, I had no idea how I would build around Wilt. Never thought of drafting him. Bird was my first choice. My 2nd choice hasn't been picked yet. I'll say it when he is selected. Probably would been considered the biggest reach of the 1st since I was at #5. My 3rd choice was Hakeem.

Starting to get an idea of what I want to do with Wilt now though.

Fair points regarding LeBron but I picked him at 2 mostly because I felt like it left me open to more possibilities about how to set up the rest of my team.

I understand the “doesn’t work well with other stars” narrative, but I think his 2013 season proved he could to a much larger extent than people think. It’s also his most efficient and least ball dominant season of his prime.

His 30.15 usage rate is well below almost all of Jordan’s, Shaq’s and Kobe’s. I think he really showed he could let another star do his thing, while being able to move the ball around and serving as an elite defender and 3 point shooter that year as well.

[Silky]

LeBron was the guy I was most unsure of how to build around when entering the draft (if I were to land a pick high enough to get him).

Play him at SF. Go big and play him at PG. Go small and play him at PF. What type of big man would he play well with? Based on his level of success with his previous bigs (star ones, role player ones, older ones like Shaq). What type of PG would LeBron best play with? The wings were easier. More straight forward figure out which ones of them would work best with LBJ.

Although I have a firm idea now on how I would build around him but I was genuinely confused about how to do it prior to the draft. Far more so than any other player.

Largely because of how ball-dominant LeBron is.

...........

Also, I had no idea how I would build around Wilt. Never thought of drafting him. Bird was my first choice. My 2nd choice hasn't been picked yet. I'll say it when he is selected. Probably would been considered the biggest reach of the 1st since I was at #5. My 3rd choice was Hakeem.

Starting to get an idea of what I want to do with Wilt now though.

Fair points regarding LeBron but I picked him at 2 mostly because I felt like it left me open to more possibilities about how to set up the rest of my team.

I understand the “doesn’t work well with other stars” narrative, but I think his 2013 season proved he could to a much larger extent than people think. It’s also his most efficient and least ball dominant season of his prime.

His 30.15 usage rate is well below almost all of Jordan’s, Shaq’s and Kobe’s. I think he really showed he could let another star do his thing, while being able to move the ball around and serving as an elite defender and 3 point shooter that year as well.

Mike, Lebron and Bird are the easiest teams to build IMO.

Lebron almost the most of the 3.

[nickagneta]

4. Slight reach. Bird has a top 5 offensive peak but it didn’t match with his best defensive seasons in 80-84. Not sure if all time offense and above average defense (not elite or great) equals top 4.

Not sure how old you are Somebody, but this take makes me think you are fairly young and never got to see Bird.

Bird was all-time great offensively, from his sophomore season on and was a great team defender up until he got hurt in 1988. His All-Defense 2nd team selections were based not on Bird's individual defense but how, in an era of illegal defense calls and straight man to man defense, he was able to funnel his man into help, play passing lanes off ball, double team hard at the right time and help from the weak side. This was especially important as teams during that time used to love sticking one man on one side of the floor and four men on the other and let the player iso. Helping at the right time was huge.

Bird could score in an elite manner from everywhere. And he was already playing great defense in a team oriented style, something done way more after the defensive rule changes. His passing was better than LeBron's as was his rebounding.

Then you have his intangibles. He was as clutch as there was in this league ever. He was an incredible team leader that commanded respect. He made everyone who played with him better, something a lot of current stars don't really do. And he could blend styles of play like no other.

Bird was far from a reach at 4.

[RPGenerate]

Are we going to start a new thread for round 2, or are we just using this one?