Big Baby v. Collison

[winsomme]

One of the players that we talk a lot about bringing in via trade (not really sure of how realistic is , but anyway..) is Collison.

my question is: how much of an upgrade is he really?

Clearly Collison has a more polished offensive game but there is a pretty significant drop off in defense IMO and strength....and for a team that really prides itself on defense, I actually am feeling at this point that BBD is better for this team..

maybe not the better player, but better for this team.

and their per 36 stats are not wildly different....

[Cman]

This is an interesting topic.

First, I don't recall seeing many ideas that involve bringing in Collison.

Second, more importantly, I think you are right that BBD is the "better fit".  I have been thinking about this a lot today, thanks to an article that Mike Reiss wrote in his "Reiss's Pieces" blog about players that do well in the Pats' system but not elsewhere (Tully Banta Cain being an example).  I think BBD is a similar player -- he plays well in the Celtics system, but I can't see him doing well elsewhere.  This is one reason I think it is more realistic Powe gets traded than BBD -- I could see Powe fitting well in other systems, not BBD. 

To the OP's point: I agree, BBD is a better fit in Boston than Collison would be.  Or, put differently, why pay $6M for what Collison can bring to the table, when we can pay 1/6th that amount...

[BillfromBoston]

how many 15+ rebound games does Davis have? How many mid-range shots? Collison is a dream fit for this team - long, tough, can hit the jumper consistently...he's developing into the modern day Kurt Thomas...in a couple of years he'll be one of the players sought out as a key ingredient for teams looking for championship role players IMO...

I'd love Nick Collison...he's everything you hope Davis could be in terms of production consistency...

[Brickowski]

Yes, collison is very sound fundamentally. He's a better version of Oberto, and certainly an upgrade over BBD.  I like BBD but Collison is so much more seasoned.

[winsomme]

how many 15+ rebound games does Davis have? How many mid-range shots? Collison is a dream fit for this team - long, tough, can hit the jumper consistently...he's developing into the modern day Kurt Thomas...in a couple of years he'll be one of the players sought out as a key ingredient for teams looking for championship role players IMO...

I'd love Nick Collison...he's everything you hope Davis could be in terms of production consistency...

well BBD has never gotten the MPG that Collison has gotten over his career, so I'm not sure the number of 15+ rebound games is a fair criticism of BBD.

I agree that on offense Collison is way ahead if for no other reason than he has the experience and has been given the PT. His offensive game has way more polish.

but i think he is a downgrade on the defensive end (really struggles to defend the C position) and has IMO taken a step backwards overall as a player in a season where he should really be getting better....

BFB, you don't worry about Collison on the defensive end....his lateral quickness is slower than BBD who probably has 30 pounds on him...

the offense is enticing considering the lack of fire power from the bench, but i still the defense is a downgrade...

[Mencius]

Yes, interesting topic.

Collison might be an improvement offensively, but here is the thing about Baby.  In spite of being pretty short, he has such a prodigious center of mass that is fairly low to the ground, that he's virtually unmovable when he really sets himself.

He is suprisingly quite effective against the true giant big men.  Very much less effective against the real mobile centers, where Powe might be more useful.  I think Collison could give you some of what Powe does in that respect, but Collison could not guard the big centers that Baby does.

I honestly believe that if we get rid of Baby, we need another center that can guard large centers.  It's my feeling that Baby plays primarily backup 5, while Leon plays mainly backup 4.

Again, I think Collison gives you more of what Powe gives you, so, if for some reason you think Collison would be an upgrade over Leon, then maybe swap out Leon for him.

I think Baby's defense against big centers is a little undervalued.

Anyway, I don't know what a proposed package to get Collison would be, but I wouldn't get rid of Baby for him.  We'd be worse at backup C if we did.  Collison can't guard the Z's and Dwights of the world (and it's tough for Baby, or anybody else for that matter), but like I said, Baby's huge, low to the ground, center of mass does surprising well against those huge guys.

I can't really tell what the proposed deal is.  Is the question, would you rather have Baby or Collison?  I guess my answer is, for us, Baby, because he plays the 5 better than Collison could against big centers.

[winsomme]

Yes, interesting topic.

Collison might be an improvement offensively, but here is the thing about Baby.  In spite of being pretty short, he has such a prodigious center of mass that is fairly low to the ground, that he's virtually unmovable when he really sets himself.

He is suprisingly quite effective against the true giant big men.  Very much less effective against the real mobile centers, where Powe might be more useful.  I think Collison could give you some of what Powe does in that respect, but Collison could not guard the big centers that Baby does.

I honestly believe that if we get rid of Baby, we need another center that can guard large centers.  It's my feeling that Baby plays primarily backup 5, while Leon plays mainly backup 4.

Again, I think Collison gives you more of what Powe gives you, so, if for some reason you think Collison would be an upgrade over Leon, then maybe swap out Leon for him.

I think Baby's defense against big centers is a little undervalued.

Anyway, I don't know what a proposed package to get Collison would be, but I wouldn't get rid of Baby for him.  We'd be worse at backup C if we did.  Collison can't guard the Z's and Dwights of the world (and it's tough for Baby, or anybody else for that matter), but like I said, Baby's huge, low to the ground, center of mass does surprising well against those huge guys.

I can't really tell what the proposed deal is.  Is the question, would you rather have Baby or Collison?  I guess my answer is, for us, Baby, because he plays the 5 better than Collison could against big centers.

yeah, not sure what a deal would be either (thinking probably either Powe or BBD would be involved)...but was more wondering what exactly the net addition would be of Collison in the rotation....

it is often called for that we need additional or better big, but the thing about PJ last year is he really made his presence known in the blocks. I'm not sure that Collison has that kind of strength or edge to his game...

plus, i would worry about him making the rotations....

I agree, Men, when you say that BBDs defense against bigs is underrated. There aren't many bigs that can overpower him even when he is giving up sometimes 3 or 4 inches...