Author Topic: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?  (Read 12198 times)

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Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« on: February 13, 2009, 11:52:56 AM »

Offline drza44

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I was reading the comments in the game recap for the Mavs game, when I saw this quote from TheAncientRivalry:

"Was anyone else unimpressed by KG picking up a cheap foul and tech and pretty much taunting dirk? I dont know, It was somewhat childish, dirk scored on KG twice in a row and then KG pretty much through a temper tantrum and was a non factor the rest of the way…I couldnt help but roll my eyes when reggie started giving KG all this credit for the comeback…if anyone else in the league had 19/15/14 its all youd be hearing about..not KG getting up into a guy whos known to back down"

The bolded sections touch on some things I wanted to hear some opinions on, but I was afraid it'd get buried if I replied in the recap so I decided to give it it's own thread.  The topic I'm curious about is what part you believe head games can play in some outcomes.  As AncientRivalry points out, Dirk had been scoring relatively easily all game when KG went nuts.  Up to that point (2:15 left in 3rd Q) Dirk had 31 points on 11-for-18 shooting from the field, then after KG's "tantrum" Dirk went 0-for-7 over the next 12 minutes of the game. 

Now, I have rightly seen Leon Powe's 4th quarter defense praised here, and I also remember Big Baby and Pierce taking a few turns on Dirk during that stretch as well.  They basically took away the paint and forced Dirk to shoot jumpers, and he couldn't knock them down.  Excellent.  BUT, I will say that IMO many of the shots that Dirk missed in the 4th are shots that he often makes when he's comfortable.  And there-in brings me back to the question of if KG's head games factor in here.

Because, as AncientRivalry points out, Dirk has been known to back down when challenged physically.  And during KG's stalking/bumping/antagonizing of Dirk when he picked up the fouls, KG pulled out the defense move that I can only really remember him doing often against Chris Bosh (another guy he seems to intimidate): KG goes deep into a defensive stance, all the way up in the opponent's personal space.  It's actually terrible defense, as if the player drives at all it's an automatic foul since he's so close.  But it's almost a contemptuous type of stance, like he's telling them that he has so little respect for their offensive game that he can get up in their skin and there's nothing they can do about it.  I know there's a picture of him doing it to Bosh somewhere, so let me see if I can find it...(long search)...OK, found it.  Here is what I was trying to describe.



KG has done that particular overly aggressive stance twice to Bosh this season and now once to Dirk, and this was the situation/result each time:

1) 11/10/08, the infamous "KG pointed at Calderon" game.  KG pulled out that stance on Bosh right around the same time that he pointed at Calderon, with the Celts down by 6 points with 1 minute left in the third quarter.  After those incidents Bosh and Calderon made a COMBINED 1 field goal for the rest of the game with Bosh throwing up a goose egg.  Pierce gets fired up has a huge scoring 4th quarter.  Celtics win by 6.

2) 1/12/09: Raptors up 2 points with 8 minutes left in the 4th, Bosh leading the way with 16 points.  KG comes into the game, gets aggressive, pulls out the "you're beneath me" defensive stance and Bosh proceeds to go without a field goal for the rest of the fourth quarter and overtime.  Pierce gets fired up and has a huge scoring game.  Celtics win.

3) 2/12/09: Mavs up 7 points with 2:16 left in the 3rd Q of a game when the Cs had been listless.  Dirk has 31 points and is on fire.  KG gets way into Dirk's personal space and (maybe) his head, does the "you're beneath me" thing, and Dirk goes 0-for-7 on jumpers that he often makes for the next 12 minutes of the game.  Pierce gets fired up and has a huge scoring 4th quarter.  Celtics win.

Now, the obvious difference is that in those two Raptors examples KG was still defending Bosh afterward whereas against the Mavs it was mainly Powe on Dirk.  But game situation, opponent caliber, and possible opponent intimidation index were all exactly the same.  And the results (both for the individual opponent and the game) were the same in all 3 cases, almost verbatim: KG's opponent disappears, Pierce gets fired up and scores a lot of points, Celtics win.

So, after this book that I wrote (never intended it to be this in depth), my question to you is: do you buy it?  Do you agree with AncientRivalry that it was just a KG temper tantrum and that KG didn't factor into what came after?  Or do you think that Reggie Miller was right, that KG intentionally went off and got into Nowitzki's head to energize his teammates and deflate his opponents? 

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 11:56:06 AM »

Offline Chris

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I think KG knows exactly what he is doing, and he also knows exactly who he is doing it against.  You don't see him doing this type of thing against guys like Duncan, not because he is afraid of Duncan, but because he knows he can't get into Duncan's head.  With guys like Dirk on the other hand, he can absolutely get into his head, and he takes advantage of it. 


Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 11:59:52 AM »

Offline Scalablob990

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Well in each of the games where this has occurred, we were losing for stupid reasons. I'd rather have a nice blow out win instead of KG's mind games on someone when we're losing.
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Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 12:00:19 PM »

Offline drza44

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Since this post was so long I ended up making it into a fan blog post.  Should this thread be deleted?  If so, can one of the mods take care of that?  Of course, I don't mind if it stays open either, I just don't want to be redundant.

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 12:02:30 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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headgames are legit.   Rodman vs Malone, for example.  The Great Gary Payton use to do this stuff all the time as well.

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 12:04:15 PM »

Offline JSD

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TP, Great post and interesting topic.

I think in large part in depends on the mental make up of the person receiving the "taunting" (for lack of a better word).

Conclusion: Results will vary.
The only color that matters is GREEN

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 12:05:39 PM »

Offline wahz

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That is it exactly, Chris: KG knows who he can do this against and who he can't. And I also think he knows when he needs to do it to fire up the team.

Boy did Powe play well. It wasn't that he just stayed on Dirk, he worked hard for every loose ball. He made it look like we don't need anyone else off the bench. Tibs did a really nice job sticking with those guys.

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 12:05:46 PM »

Online Amonkey

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Since this post was so long I ended up making it into a fan blog post.  Should this thread be deleted?  If so, can one of the mods take care of that?  Of course, I don't mind if it stays open either, I just don't want to be redundant.

I don't understand where you are coming from.  This seems like a legitimate topic of discussion, better than the 9027th "must see" trade proposals.

Anyway, Dirk was going off up to that moment.  He was like in one of those Pierce's moments where anything he threw up it would go in.  After that, it seems like everything had stalled.  That may be part of KG going off (which I would be extremely p---ed if I was Dallas fan because he was going nuts), but it can also be part of Doc getting thrown off OR most importantly, Tibby taking over.  Notice how they played more basic basketball after those moment (just giving to the hot man) and started focusing on defense.
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Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 12:13:43 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Great, well-researched post.  TP for you.

I don't know if KG did it intentionally in the sense of thinking "Ok, I'm gonna get really worked up and in Dirk's face now", but I think he had the instincts to know in the back of his head that 1. Dirk was killing us (and him) and 2. The team needed to be fired up ASAP.  That 5th foul was a mistake, but it led to the energy of the team going even higher with KG on the bench and Doc in the locker room.

And it wasn't a coincidence that Dirk suddenly went icecold for the next 10-12 minutes - part of it was some solid D by Leon, but a lot of it was that he was flatout rattled.  When Dirk's in his comfort zone he can light up any team in the league, but his comfort zone is in a finesse, Euro-style game, not a high-contact, trash talking, aggressive game like we played for the last 18 minutes or so. 

Bottom line, it was a smart move by KG, and I think it was a combination of vet instincts and being frustrated by Dirk scoring so well against him. 

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 12:29:48 PM »

Offline JSD

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Since this post was so long I ended up making it into a fan blog post.  Should this thread be deleted?  If so, can one of the mods take care of that?  Of course, I don't mind if it stays open either, I just don't want to be redundant.

I don't understand where you are coming from.  This seems like a legitimate topic of discussion, better than the 9027th "must see" trade proposals.

Anyway, Dirk was going off up to that moment.  He was like in one of those Pierce's moments where anything he threw up it would go in.  After that, it seems like everything had stalled.  That may be part of KG going off (which I would be extremely ****ed if I was Dallas fan because he was going nuts), but it can also be part of Doc getting thrown off OR most importantly, Tibby taking over.  Notice how they played more basic basketball after those moment (just giving to the hot man) and started focusing on defense.

Amonkey, this was the OP seeking clarification.
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Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 12:38:43 PM »

Offline wahz

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Since this post was so long I ended up making it into a fan blog post.  Should this thread be deleted?  If so, can one of the mods take care of that?  Of course, I don't mind if it stays open either, I just don't want to be redundant.

I don't understand where you are coming from.  This seems like a legitimate topic of discussion, better than the 9027th "must see" trade proposals.

Anyway, Dirk was going off up to that moment.  He was like in one of those Pierce's moments where anything he threw up it would go in.  After that, it seems like everything had stalled.  That may be part of KG going off (which I would be extremely ****ed if I was Dallas fan because he was going nuts), but it can also be part of Doc getting thrown off OR most importantly, Tibby taking over.  Notice how they played more basic basketball after those moment (just giving to the hot man) and started focusing on defense.

Yep. Tibby takes over and they make no turnovers, play spirited and solid position defense, hit the boards and go after loose balls like wild animals, and feed the ball over and over again to whoever is hot and take good shots too. They looked like it was the playoffs all of the sudden.  Tibbs is going to be a great head coach somewhere espoecially if he has solid players

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2009, 12:49:01 PM »

Offline moiso

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I love KG's intensity but some of his antics are very annoying.  I felt this way when he was on the Wolves and I feel this way now.  And he generally picks on guys he knows won't retaliate.

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2009, 01:11:23 PM »

Offline idrinkdetergent

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Alot of Basketball is headgames as we all know. Even in Pickup games you have to try to intimidate your opponents, If I block a  shot even in a friendly game I make sure they don't forget it. So intimidating an offensive machine like Dirk makes perfect sense simply because he will back down. It just makes sense to do. I think KG knew what he was doing and I would have him do it again.
"Sam Cassell was heckling on the sideline when I walked down, He looked at me and was like, ‘You're getting the ball, I know you're getting the ball!'
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And did Cassell, a man of many words, have anything to say after that?

 "No, I told him he needed to wear a tie."

Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2009, 01:17:11 PM »

Offline TatteredOnMySleeve

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Last night it was a childish tantrum... and I get a chuckle over people trying somehow to still contribute last nights win to KG when it had nothing to do with him...after that altercation he was  much  more invisible than dirk , as matter of fact he was completely invisible and the offense was pass to pierce and pray and KG couldnt even guard dirk on the defensive end

And I always hate when people whine about KG picking on weak players he knows wont retaliate, but its actually true, he knows he can act like a total prick like that to dirk, and dirk wont do a thing....I love KG, but he disrespected dirk last night because he was mad at getting scored on, and for a minute there I was worried about what he was going to do
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Re: Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2009, 01:23:04 PM »

Offline NoraG1

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Last night it was a childish tantrum... and I get a chuckle over people trying somehow to still contribute last nights win to KG when it had nothing to do with him...after that altercation he was  much  more invisible than dirk , as matter of fact he was completely invisible and the offense was pass to pierce and pray and KG couldnt even guard dirk on the defensive end

And I always hate when people whine about KG picking on weak players he knows wont retaliate, but its actually true, he knows he can act like a total prick like that to dirk, and dirk wont do a thing....I love KG, but he disrespected dirk last night because he was mad at getting scored on, and for a minute there I was worried about what he was going to do

Whatever it was, it got the desired results. I think there is alot to what others are saying. And there are plenty of examples listed and wins to prove it. If other plaers don't like it then they should not let it affect them so easily because KG will keep doing it. It works.