Author Topic: Report: Nets "Highly Unlikely" to Resign Russell if They Get Kyrie; Opportunity?  (Read 10986 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JBcat

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3642
  • Tommy Points: 512
I wonder if Brooklyn would do a sign and trade for irving a pick for just the tpe?

I liked this idea better a month or so ago when I thought we would get a TPE big enough for someone like Conley, but I'm not sure who is available that would really be worth paying ~$20M/yr. The problem with TPEs is you can't combine them with other players/salary.

It's a shame the NBA doesn't address the mess left behind when a star leaves a franchise (either an auto-TPE or draft compensation like other sports), but it seems we may just be one of the casualties this year. It happens all the time around the league.

What are people’s thoughts on Goran Dragic?  He makes just under 20 mil so he would fit with the TPE.  He’s not a flashy name but very solid, and being 32 on an expiring deal I don’t think it would cost much assets to get him.  If it’s a non lottery pick I’d consider it.

I think Miami should just commit to a rebuild anyway instead of being stuck in the middle.

Not a bad idea, but I guess you would be looking at a 1st for the TPE and another 1st for Dragic. He is definitely a very good player, but 33 y/o isn't ideal and I am not overly confident about his health (only played 36 games last season because of a knee injury). His deal would also be expiring.

I think if we do acquire AD, we have to do everything we can to make him happy. If that means acquiring Dragic, then I guess I could get behind it, but I think we may have missed the best he's had to offer in his career.

Thanks for the feedback.  If in the end you give up 2 non lottery picks at least you salvage getting a PG without giving up major assets. Maybe still sign someone like Rubio with the MLE.  Maybe you could also flip Dragic at the trade deadline, salary filler, with dangling the Memphis pick for another star. 

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
I wonder if Brooklyn would do a sign and trade for irving a pick for just the tpe?

I liked this idea better a month or so ago when I thought we would get a TPE big enough for someone like Conley, but I'm not sure who is available that would really be worth paying ~$20M/yr. The problem with TPEs is you can't combine them with other players/salary.

It's a shame the NBA doesn't address the mess left behind when a star leaves a franchise (either an auto-TPE or draft compensation like other sports), but it seems we may just be one of the casualties this year. It happens all the time around the league.

What are people’s thoughts on Goran Dragic?  He makes just under 20 mil so he would fit with the TPE.  He’s not a flashy name but very solid, and being 32 on an expiring deal I don’t think it would cost much assets to get him.  If it’s a non lottery pick I’d consider it.

I think Miami should just commit to a rebuild anyway instead of being stuck in the middle.
I think at 33 and coming off a major knee injury where, when he returned, he looked much more limited and has admitted he needs to strengthen it over the offseason, I would stay away. He could well be, after all, only a rental, having just next year on his contract.

Also, Dragic last year didn't look good. As a shooter/scorer was Dragic last year, really any better than Rozier, who was awful. Here are their per 36 splits

Dragic 17.9 PPG on 15.7 FGA while shooting 41.3/34.8/78.2 with a TS% of 51.7

Rozier 14.2 PPG on 13.4 FGA while shooting 38.7/35.3/78.5 with a TS% of 50.1%

Dragic was better but not by a whole lot over a pathetic Rozier year.

I would not want Dragic here.

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
I wonder if Brooklyn would do a sign and trade for irving a pick for just the tpe?

I liked this idea better a month or so ago when I thought we would get a TPE big enough for someone like Conley, but I'm not sure who is available that would really be worth paying ~$20M/yr. The problem with TPEs is you can't combine them with other players/salary.

It's a shame the NBA doesn't address the mess left behind when a star leaves a franchise (either an auto-TPE or draft compensation like other sports), but it seems we may just be one of the casualties this year. It happens all the time around the league.

What are people’s thoughts on Goran Dragic?  He makes just under 20 mil so he would fit with the TPE.  He’s not a flashy name but very solid, and being 32 on an expiring deal I don’t think it would cost much assets to get him.  If it’s a non lottery pick I’d consider it.

I think Miami should just commit to a rebuild anyway instead of being stuck in the middle.
I think at 33 and coming off a major knee injury where, when he returned, he looked much more limited and has admitted he needs to strengthen it over the offseason, I would stay away. He could well be, after all, only a rental, having just next year on his contract.

Also, Dragic last year didn't look good. As a shooter/scorer was Dragic last year, really any better than Rozier, who was awful. Here are their per 36 splits

Dragic 17.9 PPG on 15.7 FGA while shooting 41.3/34.8/78.2 with a TS% of 51.7

Rozier 14.2 PPG on 13.4 FGA while shooting 38.7/35.3/78.5 with a TS% of 50.1%

Dragic was better but not by a whole lot over a pathetic Rozier year.

I would not want Dragic here.
Yeah, sadly I think Dragic is on the decline. Dragic from 2013-2018 would have been really good I think, but not sure he'll ever get back to that
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Offline JBcat

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3642
  • Tommy Points: 512
I wonder if Brooklyn would do a sign and trade for irving a pick for just the tpe?

I liked this idea better a month or so ago when I thought we would get a TPE big enough for someone like Conley, but I'm not sure who is available that would really be worth paying ~$20M/yr. The problem with TPEs is you can't combine them with other players/salary.

It's a shame the NBA doesn't address the mess left behind when a star leaves a franchise (either an auto-TPE or draft compensation like other sports), but it seems we may just be one of the casualties this year. It happens all the time around the league.

What are people’s thoughts on Goran Dragic?  He makes just under 20 mil so he would fit with the TPE.  He’s not a flashy name but very solid, and being 32 on an expiring deal I don’t think it would cost much assets to get him.  If it’s a non lottery pick I’d consider it.

I think Miami should just commit to a rebuild anyway instead of being stuck in the middle.
I think at 33 and coming off a major knee injury where, when he returned, he looked much more limited and has admitted he needs to strengthen it over the offseason, I would stay away. He could well be, after all, only a rental, having just next year on his contract.

Also, Dragic last year didn't look good. As a shooter/scorer was Dragic last year, really any better than Rozier, who was awful. Here are their per 36 splits

Dragic 17.9 PPG on 15.7 FGA while shooting 41.3/34.8/78.2 with a TS% of 51.7

Rozier 14.2 PPG on 13.4 FGA while shooting 38.7/35.3/78.5 with a TS% of 50.1%

Dragic was better but not by a whole lot over a pathetic Rozier year.

I would not want Dragic here.

I may be wrong but his knee injury didn’t sound too bad.  He had fluid built up and just draining it didn’t work so he had it scoped.  It sounds very similar to an injury I had years ago that was eventually back to normal.

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47136
  • Tommy Points: 2401
I do not want D'Angelo Russell. He is just a vastly inferior version of Kyrie Irving. Russell will re-create and worsen all of Boston's chemistry from last season with his selfish play.

The guy took 18.7 shot attempts last season. Think of all of those possessions that will not be going to Tatum or Jaylen. That will not be going to Horford or Hayward.

It is not like he is that good of a scorer either. He is streaky. He is streaky because he cannot create high percentage looks for himself so he is reliant on long range shooting usually off the dribble with a defender in his vicinity. That is also why Russell does not get to the foul line (2.5 FTAs vs 18.7 FGAs = terrible ratio).

His scoring efficiency = 43.4% FG% 36.9% 3PT% 53.3% TS%.

That is nothing to write home about ... and certainly not worth taking away opportunities from Tatum, Jaylen, Hayward and Horford. All of who are more efficient at scoring (well Hayward is still a question mark but hopefully).

And Russell's defense would be by far the worst on the team.

Offline PAOBoston

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8098
  • Tommy Points: 533
No thank you to Russell. I’m not sure why the obsession with replacing a guard like Kyrie with a similar style guard. We have Smart who is already signed long term and is capable of running the guard spot next to Brown/Tatum (assuming no AD). There’s really no point in acquiring someone like Kyrie if we want Brown/Tatum to take it to the next step. They need/should get the shots and focal point of the offense.

What they need to figure out is the big man situation and the bench.

Offline Ilikesports17

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8595
  • Tommy Points: 842
I do not want D'Angelo Russell. He is just a vastly inferior version of Kyrie Irving. Russell will re-create and worsen all of Boston's chemistry from last season with his selfish play.

The guy took 18.7 shot attempts last season. Think of all of those possessions that will not be going to Tatum or Jaylen. That will not be going to Horford or Hayward.

It is not like he is that good of a scorer either. He is streaky. He is streaky because he cannot create high percentage looks for himself so he is reliant on long range shooting usually off the dribble with a defender in his vicinity. That is also why Russell does not get to the foul line (2.5 FTAs vs 18.7 FGAs = terrible ratio).

His scoring efficiency = 43.4% FG% 36.9% 3PT% 53.3% TS%.

That is nothing to write home about ... and certainly not worth taking away opportunities from Tatum, Jaylen, Hayward and Horford. All of who are more efficient at scoring (well Hayward is still a question mark but hopefully).

And Russell's defense would be by far the worst on the team.
It’s speculation but I think Irvings personality, not shot selection that destroyed chemistry
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
Getting Russell is fine for your Play Station game but a poor idea if you want to rebuild team chemistry.

Frankly Rozier is a better fit than Russell.

The Raptors just won championship with Kyle Lowry as starting PG for goodness sakes. And Undrafted 5’10” Fred Van Vleet as their hero backup PG.

The BBIQ on CS is quite low with this idea.

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
I do not want D'Angelo Russell. He is just a vastly inferior version of Kyrie Irving. Russell will re-create and worsen all of Boston's chemistry from last season with his selfish play.

The guy took 18.7 shot attempts last season. Think of all of those possessions that will not be going to Tatum or Jaylen. That will not be going to Horford or Hayward.

It is not like he is that good of a scorer either. He is streaky. He is streaky because he cannot create high percentage looks for himself so he is reliant on long range shooting usually off the dribble with a defender in his vicinity. That is also why Russell does not get to the foul line (2.5 FTAs vs 18.7 FGAs = terrible ratio).

His scoring efficiency = 43.4% FG% 36.9% 3PT% 53.3% TS%.

That is nothing to write home about ... and certainly not worth taking away opportunities from Tatum, Jaylen, Hayward and Horford. All of who are more efficient at scoring (well Hayward is still a question mark but hopefully).

And Russell's defense would be by far the worst on the team.
It’s speculation but I think Irvings personality, not shot selection that destroyed chemistry
I think the attitudes in some players other than Kyrie caused the initial chemistry issues. Then when Kyrie went public in saying it was the youth, Kyrie then just was throwing gas on an already smouldering fire of bad team chemistry.

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
Even beyond the chemistry, Russell is a lesser player than Kyrie with many of his same faults.

I don't want to pay that player a rich contract given how poorly that mix performed last year.

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
I do not want D'Angelo Russell. He is just a vastly inferior version of Kyrie Irving. Russell will re-create and worsen all of Boston's chemistry from last season with his selfish play.

The guy took 18.7 shot attempts last season. Think of all of those possessions that will not be going to Tatum or Jaylen. That will not be going to Horford or Hayward.

It is not like he is that good of a scorer either. He is streaky. He is streaky because he cannot create high percentage looks for himself so he is reliant on long range shooting usually off the dribble with a defender in his vicinity. That is also why Russell does not get to the foul line (2.5 FTAs vs 18.7 FGAs = terrible ratio).

His scoring efficiency = 43.4% FG% 36.9% 3PT% 53.3% TS%.

That is nothing to write home about ... and certainly not worth taking away opportunities from Tatum, Jaylen, Hayward and Horford. All of who are more efficient at scoring (well Hayward is still a question mark but hopefully).

And Russell's defense would be by far the worst on the team.
It’s speculation but I think Irvings personality, not shot selection that destroyed chemistry
I think the attitudes in some players other than Kyrie caused the initial chemistry issues. Then when Kyrie went public in saying it was the youth, Kyrie then just was throwing gas on an already smouldering fire of bad team chemistry.

I think you’re giving Kyrie too much credit.

Offline jpotter33

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47948
  • Tommy Points: 2906
If people were upset about Kyrie's play last year, take this into consideration about Russell

1. Russell is a worse shooter than Kyrie from the field, the 3 point line and the free throw line and shoots the ball more than Kyrie.

2. Russell shoots more three pointers than Kyrie even though he makes less three pointers than Kyrie at a lesser rate

3. Russell avoids contact in the lane even more than Kyrie, getting to the FT line much less than Kyrie and making those shots at a much lesser rate.

4. Russell's defense is as bad as Kyrie's if not worse.

5. Russell is as ball dominant and isolation heavy as Kyrie if not more.

6. Russell, given his age and former locker room actions in LA, is no leader. His ability to eventually become a leader, may be on the same level as Kyrie.

7. Russell hasn't shown he can come up big when it matters most, in the playoffs. As bad as Kyrie's series was for Boston this year, Russell's was worse. But Kyrie has shown he can be phenomenal in the playoffs, even if he wasn't in the Milwaukee series.

If you didn't like Kyrie in Green, you should hate the idea of bringing in Russell. And, there is the possibility such a deal could hard cap the team, depending on what else has been happening in the off-season thus far.

I have been pretty vocal that I doubt Ainge does any sign and trades. Heck, teams across the league haven't made a single sign and trade in 2 years. I think the likelihood of a simultaneous sign and trade, especially between division rivals, is nearly zero.

Well made post but something to consider about the difference between Russell and Kyrie is that Brooklyn played at the fastest Pace In The League last year at a 105.60 rating against our 5th ranking 100.83.

Kyrie has a penchant for slowing things down so he can score in the half-court.

While he's masterful at this I think it negatively impacts a lot of the other guys like Jaylen and Tatum who thrive in transition.

Russell had some IT4-esque 4th quarters last year single-handedly taking over games by bombing threes in opening up lanes for cutters.

I see no reason why he couldn't do the same thing here and a lot of those games where the team fell apart and never got their rhythm back under Kyrie could have very well turned into W's under Russell.

TP. This has been one of my complaints about the past few years, as we played a significantly slower game than in the IT years, even though most of our guys were suited for a transition game.

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
If we did a double sign and trade, kyrie’s salary will count as 20 million (his previous contract) for salary matching purposes. That means we can take back as much as 25 mil (125% of 20 mil) if we sign and trade kyrie.   D’Angelo might want more... but if you include someone like yabu, you can increase the amount of salary you can take back. 

Matching salaries isn’t terribly difficult here.  We’d have to stay below the apron... and we’d likely need to send assets to the nets for them to cooperate since there’s no reason for them to let Russell walk for nothing when they can simply match any offer he gets.

Two things:

1) The reports out right now (see the link I provided in this thread) are that they will likely just let Russell walk to another team if they get Kyrie, as they don't think they'll be able to coexist. (To be honest - this might be something of Kyrie's doing, as it would be a strange fit between them with as ball-dominant as they both are.) This would probably be the case regardless if they got Kyrie, as he most likely will end up having another max-level guy come with him, e.g. KD, Butler, Harris, etc. This kind of move would allow them to get something for Russell without letting him leave for nothing.

2) I do think we would have to offer them something of significant value to get them to do this. As in, I think it would probably take the Memphis pick to get them to bite on this and help out a divisional rival. But my thinking on that is this - if you knew that you were getting a 23 year old All Star with the Memphis pick, given its significant variability in outcomes wouldn't you jump on that offer at once? I know I would.

1) I find this super unlikely.  They have the ability to match any offer Russell gets on the open market and also use their cap space to sign Kyrie.   Why would they let an all-star guard walk for nothing?  It's counterproductive and stupid. 

2) I agree with you.  Bill Simmons on his podcast was talking about how the Nets could sign-and-trade Russell to the Suns for the #6 pick - and then turn around and combine the #6 with Dinwiddle, LeVert, Allen and future picks to make a run at Anthony Davis.  Ultimately, a double-sign-and-trade is possible, but it would end up looking like we traded Kyrie, Yabu, Memphis 1st, #20, and #22 for D'Angelo Russell.  The reality is that we'd be making the most of a bad situation. Knowing that Kyrie is walking for nothing, we could use his salary as cap-filler to take back Russell on his new contract.  Then, we'd have to give up picks (#20, #22, Memphis 1st, for instance), to get them to agree to give up their rights to Russell.  Even if we don't take back Russell, we should try hard to get Brooklyn to agree to a sign-and-trade where they send us back a trade exception.  We could use that trade exception along with picks to try and take back a decent player.   Getting Brooklyn to cooperate with that probably only costs us a 2nd rounder or something, right?


Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
If we did a double sign and trade, kyrie’s salary will count as 20 million (his previous contract) for salary matching purposes. That means we can take back as much as 25 mil (125% of 20 mil) if we sign and trade kyrie.   D’Angelo might want more... but if you include someone like yabu, you can increase the amount of salary you can take back. 

Matching salaries isn’t terribly difficult here.  We’d have to stay below the apron... and we’d likely need to send assets to the nets for them to cooperate since there’s no reason for them to let Russell walk for nothing when they can simply match any offer he gets.

Two things:

1) The reports out right now (see the link I provided in this thread) are that they will likely just let Russell walk to another team if they get Kyrie, as they don't think they'll be able to coexist. (To be honest - this might be something of Kyrie's doing, as it would be a strange fit between them with as ball-dominant as they both are.) This would probably be the case regardless if they got Kyrie, as he most likely will end up having another max-level guy come with him, e.g. KD, Butler, Harris, etc. This kind of move would allow them to get something for Russell without letting him leave for nothing.

2) I do think we would have to offer them something of significant value to get them to do this. As in, I think it would probably take the Memphis pick to get them to bite on this and help out a divisional rival. But my thinking on that is this - if you knew that you were getting a 23 year old All Star with the Memphis pick, given its significant variability in outcomes wouldn't you jump on that offer at once? I know I would.

1) I find this super unlikely.  They have the ability to match any offer Russell gets on the open market and also use their cap space to sign Kyrie.   Why would they let an all-star guard walk for nothing?  It's counterproductive and stupid. 

2) I agree with you.  Bill Simmons on his podcast was talking about how the Nets could sign-and-trade Russell to the Suns for the #6 pick - and then turn around and combine the #6 with Dinwiddle, LeVert, Allen and future picks to make a run at Anthony Davis.  Ultimately, a double-sign-and-trade is possible, but it would end up looking like we traded Kyrie, Yabu, Memphis 1st, #20, and #22 for D'Angelo Russell.  The reality is that we'd be making the most of a bad situation. Knowing that Kyrie is walking for nothing, we could use his salary as cap-filler to take back Russell on his new contract.  Then, we'd have to give up picks (#20, #22, Memphis 1st, for instance), to get them to agree to give up their rights to Russell.  Even if we don't take back Russell, we should try hard to get Brooklyn to agree to a sign-and-trade where they send us back a trade exception.  We could use that trade exception along with picks to try and take back a decent player.   Getting Brooklyn to cooperate with that probably only costs us a 2nd rounder or something, right?

Bill Simmons' idea is so dumb, if the Pels would reject the 4 pick with Ingram and Ball, why on earth would they take the 6th pick and those role players? Put your thinking cap on, man.

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
If people were upset about Kyrie's play last year, take this into consideration about Russell

1. Russell is a worse shooter than Kyrie from the field, the 3 point line and the free throw line and shoots the ball more than Kyrie.

2. Russell shoots more three pointers than Kyrie even though he makes less three pointers than Kyrie at a lesser rate

3. Russell avoids contact in the lane even more than Kyrie, getting to the FT line much less than Kyrie and making those shots at a much lesser rate.

4. Russell's defense is as bad as Kyrie's if not worse.

5. Russell is as ball dominant and isolation heavy as Kyrie if not more.

6. Russell, given his age and former locker room actions in LA, is no leader. His ability to eventually become a leader, may be on the same level as Kyrie.

7. Russell hasn't shown he can come up big when it matters most, in the playoffs. As bad as Kyrie's series was for Boston this year, Russell's was worse. But Kyrie has shown he can be phenomenal in the playoffs, even if he wasn't in the Milwaukee series.

If you didn't like Kyrie in Green, you should hate the idea of bringing in Russell. And, there is the possibility such a deal could hard cap the team, depending on what else has been happening in the off-season thus far.

I have been pretty vocal that I doubt Ainge does any sign and trades. Heck, teams across the league haven't made a single sign and trade in 2 years. I think the likelihood of a simultaneous sign and trade, especially between division rivals, is nearly zero.

Well made post but something to consider about the difference between Russell and Kyrie is that Brooklyn played at the fastest Pace In The League last year at a 105.60 rating against our 5th ranking 100.83.

Kyrie has a penchant for slowing things down so he can score in the half-court.

While he's masterful at this I think it negatively impacts a lot of the other guys like Jaylen and Tatum who thrive in transition.

Russell had some IT4-esque 4th quarters last year single-handedly taking over games by bombing threes in opening up lanes for cutters.

I see no reason why he couldn't do the same thing here and a lot of those games where the team fell apart and never got their rhythm back under Kyrie could have very well turned into W's under Russell.

TP. This has been one of my complaints about the past few years, as we played a significantly slower game than in the IT years, even though most of our guys were suited for a transition game.
The Celtics played at a faster pace this year than either of the IT years. They played at the 5th fastest pace in the league this year.

They also scored as high a percentage of their points on fast breaks this year as they did in the IT years.

I can see wanting the Celtics to play at an even faster pace but they didn't play at a much slower pace than in the IT years.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 01:53:01 PM by nickagneta »