Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?

[Roy H.]

So, a lot of folks have said that it's impossible to include Terry Rozier in a realistic sign-and-trade for Anthony Davis.  I was brainstorming this morning, and I'm wondering if this works.

As a reminder for those who aren't as familiar with cap rules:

1.  In a S&T that involves a significant pay raise (20%+), the player's salary counts as 50% of his actual salary for the signing team, and 100% of his actual salary for the team trading for him.

2.  At this level, salaries must "fit" within 125% + $100k.

3.  Sign and trade contracts must be for three years, but only the first year must be guaranteed.

Now, here's the important one that people often overlook:

4.  The trade may be structured differently from each team's perspective.  We saw this in the Paul Pierce / Kevin Garnett trade.  Because of how Boston structured the trade, they acquired a very large trade exception.  So long as you can organize the trade that works out from Boston's perspective, and another trade that works from New Orleans', the deal(s) can go through.  That even includes breaking it down into multiple trades from one team's perspective.

Assumptions:

1.  Terry Rozier would gladly play on a 1 year max deal.

2.  New Orleans would be willing to increase payroll slightly to faciliate the deal.

The Trade:

Tatum + Williams + Rozier S&T + SAC #1 + MEM #1 + BOS #1 (2019) + BOS #1 (2020) + LAC #1

for

Davis + K. Williams + Okafor

(Note:  we can include our 2020 #1 because this trade would take place after the draft, and thus Boston wouldn't be trading two "future" #1s.)

From Boston's perspective:

The trade is broken up into multiple concurrent trades:

Trade #1:

Terry's outgoing salary (50%) is $13.625 million
Tatum's salary is $7.8 million
Williams' salary is $1.9 million

That adds up to $23.325 million.  That easily fits within the 125% + $100,000 requirement for Davis' $27.1 million salary.

Trade #2:

Boston absorbs the minimum salary contracts of Kenrich Williams and Jahil Okafor.  Boston is allowed to do this under CBA rules.

From New Orleans' perspective:

Only one trade is necessary from New Orleans' perspective:

Davis ($27.1m) + Okafor ($1.7m) + K. Williams ($1.4m) for Rozier ($27.25m) + Tatum ($7.8m) + R. Williams ($1.9m)

This trade works within the 125% + $100k rule.

The resulting team:

Horford / Baynes / Okafor
Davis / (Morris) / K. Williams / Yabu
Hayward
Smart / Brown
Irving

We would still have Morris' Bird rights, and we'd potentially have the Taxpayer MLE (I haven't looked at total team salary to see how close we'd be to the "Apron").  We can always sign players to the minimum.

[Roy H.]

Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

[JBcat]

Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

[Erik]

Rozier can be S&T to Pelicans, but The toughest part of a sign and trade is getting him to agree to go there. Also does Pels want him at that price and contract? It’s messy, although I believe that a Rozier, Holiday  backcourt would be amazing.

I also believe (off topic) that if we’re giving up Tatum and Smart, that the picks should be limited. The “let’s give them all the picks” scenarios should be reserved for Horford salary “dumps” (Hayward too if he doesn’t show progress). I say salary dump in a relative sense (they’re our worst contracts, but not necessarily bad ones).

[NKY fan]

I believe the incoming salary for NOP has to be at most $32.2M as Davis is scheduled to make $27.1M next season . I think salaries once you are trading for someone making more than $25M have to be within $5.1M of the big salaried player.
If we want to sign and trade Rozier directly to NOP he can’t sign for more than $20.4M >>>> 10.2 x 2
It really becomes a math optimization problem.
Many of you probably remember when we traded pierce and garnet we received Keith bogans signed and traded for 5.2M as half of his new salary was needed to make the dollars work on the Nets side. He made the veteran minimum (1.2M)the year before that trade ..


Now back to Rozier half of his base year salary will count to the dollars going out of the Celtics for matching trade purposes ( or 1.2 his prior year salary 3.6m whichever is higher) and his full salary will count to NOP... remember that pelicans can receive as much as 32.2 M so they have room.
To make the excersze rather easier we need to sign Rozier to $18M for three years - 54-57M with raises.
9M will count to our outgoing $ and 18 to pelicans... just need to add $13M more and the trade will be legal..
$22m ongoing for Celtics and $31M incoming for pelicans ...
$13M would be Tatum plus MLe guy we sign this season

Sorry for the bad explanation. I think mainly math people will understand my post..
My main premise is that once the traded salary of one player becomes big enough you have to abide by the within $5M plus $100K rule but I might be wrong on that.

[mgent]

Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

I thought this also, but apparently it was changed in the last CBA.

Other note:  I initially thought this was a thread about the Car Gurus.

[Phantom255x]

You can, but also remember, AD may have to waive his trade kicker, otherwise instead of 21.6M, you'll need 24M to match.

But that could still be accomplished I think.

For example, say Rozier agrees to go to Pelicans and they sign him around 3/48M (OR 4/64M) which is 16M AAV but 8M counts as outgoing (50% of salary) and between now and March, we sign an MLE player (from buyout market) to a 2-year deal.

Rozier (8M) + MLE Player (5.3M) + Tatum (7.8M) + Williams (2M) + Grizzlies Pick + 2-3 Future 1sts.

The players in the package puts us around 23M, but remember, if Kings Pick lands say, 13-14 spot (ideal scenario) then it counts as about 3M so we draft, sign draftee and then ship to Pelicans. Celtics pick may also be around 1M in value, and if Clippers Pick conveys it could be close to 2M in value. Otherwise, Clips pick could still be a solid pick that definitely conveys in 2020 if we assume LAC will land a star or two.

Those picks come into bigger value for us IF AD doesn't waive his trade kicker and we still need some salary to complete the deal. With that said though... if he doesn't waive the trade kicker, then it's probably a legitimate sign he's only a rental for us. Even Kyrie waived his for us, although he had 2 years left on his deal and salary-matching at that time wasn't a huge issue honestly.

It's going to require some coordination and creativity I imagine, but it's certainly possible.

[trickybilly]

Said it before and I'll say it again.

Someone should sabotage Saltlovers personal and professional life.

[JBcat]

Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

I thought this also, but apparently it was changed in the last CBA.

Other note:  I initially thought this was a thread about the Car Gurus.

Thanks.  It makes me feel a whole lot better about our chances including Rozier in a deal.

[Androslav]

That's a great and sound proposal Roy.
I would welcome it, if Kyrie signs.
IMO there are too many picks on the table, as we only have to beat the 2nd best offer. Tatum "alone" surpasses many other teams offers.

[Roy H.]

I believe the incoming salary for NOP has to be at most $32.2M as Davis is scheduled to make $27.1M next season . I think salaries once you are trading for someone making more than $25M have to be within $5.1M of the big salaried player.
If we want to sign and trade Rozier directly to NOP he can’t sign for more than $20.4M >>>> 10.2 x 2
It really becomes a math optimization problem.
Many of you probably remember when we traded pierce and garnet we received Keith bogans signed and traded for 5.2M as half of his new salary was needed to make the dollars work on the Nets side. He made the veteran minimum (1.2M)the year before that trade ..


Now back to Rozier half of his base year salary will count to the dollars going out of the Celtics for matching trade purposes ( or 1.2 his prior year salary 3.6m whichever is higher) and his full salary will count to NOP... remember that pelicans can receive as much as 32.2 M so they have room.
To make the excersze rather easier we need to sign Rozier to $18M for three years - 54-57M with raises.
9M will count to our outgoing $ and 18 to pelicans... just need to add $13M more and the trade will be legal..
$22m ongoing for Celtics and $31M incoming for pelicans ...
$13M would be Tatum plus MLe guy we sign this season

Sorry for the bad explanation. I think mainly math people will understand my post..
My main premise is that once the traded salary of one player becomes big enough you have to abide by the within $5M plus $100K rule but I might be wrong on that.

See here. Above $19.6 million it’s 125% + $100k.

[Roy H.]

Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

I have heard a lot of people indicate this is a rule, but I Don’t believe that it is.  It’s not found anywhere in the CBA or CBA FAQ as far as I know. I know that Keith Van Horn. was combined with other players when he was signed and traded.

[Roy H.]

Rozier can be S&T to Pelicans, but The toughest part of a sign and trade is getting him to agree to go there. Also does Pels want him at that price and contract? It’s messy, although I believe that a Rozier, Holiday  backcourt would be amazing.

I also believe (off topic) that if we’re giving up Tatum and Smart, that the picks should be limited. The “let’s give them all the picks” scenarios should be reserved for Horford salary “dumps” (Hayward too if he doesn’t show progress). I say salary dump in a relative sense (they’re our worst contracts, but not necessarily bad ones).

We wouldn’t be giving up Smart, and Rozier would be buying out his year of restricted free agency for essentially a one year max contract.

[Vermont Green]

This illustrates the Celtics advantages and disadvantages in trying to trade for Davis.  We have the good young assets and the picks but we don't have the chunks of salary that are needed.  This is a way to get there (including Rozier S&T) but NOP will have to view this as the cost of doing business to get Tatum or whatever young assets they get.  Rozier is not a bad player but taking that contract (even with team options) is a net negative for NOP.  Rozier has to agree as well but this would not be such a bad deal for him.  He gets good money and become a UFA sooner.

All trades are tough, this one is no different.  As others have said, all we need is to beat the next best offer.  If we can build around Kyrie and Davis, there are a lot of ways to build the rest of the team.

[JBcat]

This illustrates the Celtics advantages and disadvantages in trying to trade for Davis.  We have the good young assets and the picks but we don't have the chunks of salary that are needed.  This is a way to get there (including Rozier S&T) but NOP will have to view this as the cost of doing business to get Tatum or whatever young assets they get.  Rozier is not a bad player but taking that contract (even with team options) is a net negative for NOP.  Rozier has to agree as well but this would not be such a bad deal for him.  He gets good money and become a UFA sooner.

All trades are tough, this one is no different.  As others have said, all we need is to beat the next best offer.  If we can build around Kyrie and Davis, there are a lot of ways to build the rest of the team.

It may not be such a bad contract for NO though in the 16-18 mil range.  We all know starter Terry is better than bench Terry, and if he is paired up with Holiday in the backcourt it could work very well for him to have someone share the ball handling responsibilities.