Sheed/Big Baby/1st Rounder for Tayshaun Prince

[MBunge]

1) We can talk hypotheticals among other teams if we want but I just am thinking about last year... if we had a decent enough 5th big to step up for Perkins we would have won the NBA title.

Snakehead, you just proved why your argument was wrong and why we should make that trade for Prince if it's available.  You are concerned about depth at the big-man position, and even cite that if we had a "decent enough 5th big to step up for Perkins we would have won the NBA title," which basically says that BBD is not a decent enough big to step up for Perkins.  We had Davis, and you are admitting that he's not enough of a backup.  And I agree with you. 

Now we have Jermaine O'Neal and Shaquille O'neal, which despite potential injury concerns, is more depth than we had last year.  Davis is far down on the depth chart and I think it'd be VERY wise if we could trade him (and Sheed's contract, etc) for a SF/PF "1st off the bench" kind of guy.  Not to mention that Prince matches up well with our biggest opponents.

When KG went down, Davis stepped in and averaged 15 points a game in the playoffs.  Baby is a very good player who simply has some severe limitations because of his lack of height and eplosiveness.  Don't think he can just be replaced by any scrub.

When Perk comes back, if he's healthy, Baby would become something of a 5th wheel.  But Perk ain't coming back 'til mid February at best and might not be fully healthy at all this coming season.

Mike

[Snakehead]

1) We can talk hypotheticals among other teams if we want but I just am thinking about last year... if we had a decent enough 5th big to step up for Perkins we would have won the NBA title.

Snakehead, you just proved why your argument was wrong and why we should make that trade for Prince if it's available.  You are concerned about depth at the big-man position, and even cite that if we had a "decent enough 5th big to step up for Perkins we would have won the NBA title," which basically says that BBD is not a decent enough big to step up for Perkins.  We had Davis, and you are admitting that he's not enough of a backup.  And I agree with you. 

Now we have Jermaine O'Neal and Shaquille O'neal, which despite potential injury concerns, is more depth than we had last year.  Davis is far down on the depth chart and I think it'd be VERY wise if we could trade him (and Sheed's contract, etc) for a SF/PF "1st off the bench" kind of guy.  Not to mention that Prince matches up well with our biggest opponents.

No, a decent enough 5TH BIG.  Our depth chart for bigs last year:

PF - KG
C - Perkins

Backups: Sheed, BBD (Big Baby is our 4th big last year)


When Perkins went down, Sheed had to step up for Perkins and could not handle it, he clearly was having back problems, and at his old age couldn't manage the minutes against the Lakers bigs regardless.  Big Baby was our first big off the bench then.  He had to play C (which is not good) and did not matchup with the length of the Lakers (despite one very good game he had).

BBD as my 5TH BIG I love.  He was our 4th big last year.  If we have KG, Perk, Jermaine, Shaq, and then BBD we are in great shape to spread out PT during the regular season and deal with injuries if they happen.  If Perk goes down in that lineup we still win the title.

When Perk comes back, if he's healthy, Baby would become something of a 5th wheel.  But Perk ain't coming back 'til mid February at best and might not be fully healthy at all this coming season.

Mike

This is the important part everyone forgets (but you  obviously Mike).  I did not see the real KG til the Playoffs, it took him time to come back.  With Perk I expect the same at best, it could be he plays at a diminished level after he returns or not at all.  Or he could go down again.  That is far too big of a thing to risk by not having other bigs for insurance.

[LilRip]

You didn't read my post?  The point was if we have any injuries in our frontcourt or Perk does not return at full strength or at all (which again are both possibilities) then we have no chance to win the title this year if that is our front court.

We would also be screwed without Prince if say Pierce went down, but Pierce has been healthy as has the rest of our backcourt (save Quis), Jermaine, Perk, KG are all with recent history of major injuries.

We saw in the Finals that if a big goes down we will be screwed.  With this Prince trade we are in the same situation if say Perk went down again.

If Prince could play enough PF well enough, maybe then.  But I don't know if he could and seriously would not want him to against teams like LA.  We would have a much better backup wing, yes, but I think we need the front court depth.  I would love Prince but I think the cost is too high for what we give up inside.

Maybe if there is a decent enough big available for the veterans minimum, but I don't think there are.

If everyone remains healthy this is a better option, but I would not be able to take losing another title because of a frontcourt injury that can't be recovered from because of a lack of depth.

You do realize that Bynum is also injury-prone. If he went down (again), who does LA turn to? Ratliff?? Gasol will have to play center and Odom will play the 4 and we can match up with that pretty well.

and if Dwight gets an ACL (i don't think Perk has a history with knee injuries), then the Magic are screwed because they have Gortat and none else.

Injuries will screw any team up. However, relying on passable talent (Quis, who will also surely go down again this season, & Wafer) isn't a good strategy because that way, we'll be kinda screwed even if we are at full strength. PP and RA shouldn't play that many minutes so that they can still finish strong. Prince is very capable.



- LilRip

1) We can talk hypotheticals among other teams if we want but I just am thinking about last year... if we had a decent enough 5th big to step up for Perkins we would have won the NBA title.


2) Just because other teams are thin up front doesn't mean we should be.  Bynum has an injury history but Howard does not.  Either way, both are young and we have old bigs who are injury prone... not a good combo. Certainly less favorable than the other situations.  

Also, BBD would be an asset if you manage the regular season keeping an eye on the postseason, as you should.  You can then give the old bigs reduced minutes or games off during the season.  Did anyone watch Shaq the last couple regular seasons?  He takes games off.  Big Baby would be happy for more regular season PT and the old guys would benefit in the  Playoffs from more rest (and less time on the court they could get injured in pointless regular season games)


3) Besides the changes in bigs, our team is mostly the same.  We lost TA, but added Wafer.  Nate will play a bigger role this year, hopefully Quis remains healthy, and Wafer will play some minutes.  That is basically where TA's playing time will go (barring some sort of trade like the one for Prince).  So basically you think TA is that good?  If things go well, Quis can be the stopper we need and Wafer can bring in the offense (that Finley was supposed to). We came within a handful of points from winning the NBA title, and it wasn't because of anything but a lack of frontcourt depth (and Ray's missing shots, but that is unpredictable ).  Our backcourt is not just "passable talent" if it was that close to a title.

1) i'm not the one who brought in hypotheticals. It was you. to quote you "We saw in the Finals that if a big goes down we will be screwed." At which point I responded that if a big had gone down for LA, they would've been screwed too and we would've won. It was a stroke of bad luck that Perk went down with an injury that bad.

2) Dwight has no injury history and Perk has no knee injury history either. big deal. Injuries happen. Shaun Livingston had no knee injury history either and he's still rehabbing. You think Dwight would've returned for game 7 if he had torn his ACL the previous game? or Gasol?

yes, it's nice to have a plethora of big men, but a team only has limited resources of talent and roster slots. I'd much rather have a highly capable 1st(!!!) wing off the bench than keeping a capable 4th or 5th big. If it was a trade off between a 1st wing and a 1st big, then i'd side with the big. But we're talking 5th. again, to invoke your hypotheticals...

If Pierce had been the one to go down with injury, a lineup of Rondo-Ray-Prince-KG-Perk would've stood a better chance than a lineup of Rondo-Ray-Tony-KG-Perk.

3) and how many meaningful minutes did Marquis play in that series? he played a whopping, wait for it..... 4 min and 21 secs! and 4:14 of that came in garbage time!

and how good is Von Wafer again? you could be sold on him, probably because he's a Celtic now and you're a Celtics fan, but the fact that he couldn't get back to Greece and he failed 2 NBA physicals doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me. so yes, TA is better than them and TA played some big productive minutes for us last playoffs. so yes, right now, our bench backcourt is just passable.



- LilRip

[Snakehead]

You didn't read my post?  The point was if we have any injuries in our frontcourt or Perk does not return at full strength or at all (which again are both possibilities) then we have no chance to win the title this year if that is our front court.

We would also be screwed without Prince if say Pierce went down, but Pierce has been healthy as has the rest of our backcourt (save Quis), Jermaine, Perk, KG are all with recent history of major injuries.

We saw in the Finals that if a big goes down we will be screwed.  With this Prince trade we are in the same situation if say Perk went down again.

If Prince could play enough PF well enough, maybe then.  But I don't know if he could and seriously would not want him to against teams like LA.  We would have a much better backup wing, yes, but I think we need the front court depth.  I would love Prince but I think the cost is too high for what we give up inside.

Maybe if there is a decent enough big available for the veterans minimum, but I don't think there are.

If everyone remains healthy this is a better option, but I would not be able to take losing another title because of a frontcourt injury that can't be recovered from because of a lack of depth.

You do realize that Bynum is also injury-prone. If he went down (again), who does LA turn to? Ratliff?? Gasol will have to play center and Odom will play the 4 and we can match up with that pretty well.

and if Dwight gets an ACL (i don't think Perk has a history with knee injuries), then the Magic are screwed because they have Gortat and none else.

Injuries will screw any team up. However, relying on passable talent (Quis, who will also surely go down again this season, & Wafer) isn't a good strategy because that way, we'll be kinda screwed even if we are at full strength. PP and RA shouldn't play that many minutes so that they can still finish strong. Prince is very capable.



- LilRip

1) We can talk hypotheticals among other teams if we want but I just am thinking about last year... if we had a decent enough 5th big to step up for Perkins we would have won the NBA title.


2) Just because other teams are thin up front doesn't mean we should be.  Bynum has an injury history but Howard does not.  Either way, both are young and we have old bigs who are injury prone... not a good combo. Certainly less favorable than the other situations. 

Also, BBD would be an asset if you manage the regular season keeping an eye on the postseason, as you should.  You can then give the old bigs reduced minutes or games off during the season.  Did anyone watch Shaq the last couple regular seasons?  He takes games off.  Big Baby would be happy for more regular season PT and the old guys would benefit in the  Playoffs from more rest (and less time on the court they could get injured in pointless regular season games)


3) Besides the changes in bigs, our team is mostly the same.  We lost TA, but added Wafer.  Nate will play a bigger role this year, hopefully Quis remains healthy, and Wafer will play some minutes.  That is basically where TA's playing time will go (barring some sort of trade like the one for Prince).  So basically you think TA is that good?  If things go well, Quis can be the stopper we need and Wafer can bring in the offense (that Finley was supposed to). We came within a handful of points from winning the NBA title, and it wasn't because of anything but a lack of frontcourt depth (and Ray's missing shots, but that is unpredictable ).  Our backcourt is not just "passable talent" if it was that close to a title.

1) i'm not the one who brought in hypotheticals. It was you. to quote you "We saw in the Finals that if a big goes down we will be screwed." At which point I responded that if a big had gone down for LA, they would've been screwed too and we would've won. It was a stroke of bad luck that Perk went down with an injury that bad.

2) Dwight has no injury history and Perk has no knee injury history either. big deal. Injuries happen. Shaun Livingston had no knee injury history either and he's still rehabbing. You think Dwight would've returned for game 7 if he had torn his ACL the previous game? or Gasol?

yes, it's nice to have a plethora of big men, but a team only has limited resources of talent and roster slots. I'd much rather have a highly capable 1st(!!!) wing off the bench than keeping a capable 4th or 5th big. If it was a trade off between a 1st wing and a 1st big, then i'd side with the big. But we're talking 5th. again, to invoke your hypotheticals...

If Pierce had been the one to go down with injury, a lineup of Rondo-Ray-Prince-KG-Perk would've stood a better chance than a lineup of Rondo-Ray-Tony-KG-Perk.

3) and how many meaningful minutes did Marquis play in that series? he played a whopping, wait for it..... 4 min and 21 secs! and 4:14 of that came in garbage time!

and how good is Von Wafer again? you could be sold on him, probably because he's a Celtic now and you're a Celtics fan, but the fact that he couldn't get back to Greece and he failed 2 NBA physicals doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me. so yes, TA is better than them and TA played some big productive minutes for us last playoffs. so yes, right now, our bench backcourt is just passable.



- LilRip

I will say again, just because other teams are thin up front doesn't mean we should be.  Yes the Lakers would of been screwed, but we were screwed by Perk going down, that is the reality.  Although Bynum has a history of knee injuries, our bigs are probably more likely to go down.

The injury history of our bigs is much more important than you factor in.  Yes, people can have devastating injuries out of the blue, but often times guys consistently have these problems, ESPECIALLY at an advanced age.  I know I don't want to risk it and again, BBD will be very useful in the regular season because he will love to play more minutes and him playing more minutes will keep our other bigs fresh.  Do you think Shaq will play every game this regular season too?  Beacause I guarentee he will not.  BBD will step in then.

And with the injury factor, yes Pierce or Ray or Rondo could go down but these guys have less of an injury history.  If you're hedging you bets you insure the front court.



There can be value in having a better wing but the thinking on my part is the value and strengths of our team in matching up with other contenders will come from the front court.  The Lakers dominated us with size, Orlando's success is totally based on Dwight Howard, and Miami will be a great team I believe but if they do have a weakness it will be inside.  A wing matching up to guard say LBJ could be useful, but instead I would rather pound it inside.

The bigs give us our best chance I believe.  We already are an old team, so adding a wing isn't really going to make us youthful, athletic, or fast (though it could help).  I would rather instead become a great and deep frontcourt team.


As for Quis, trust me I was not a fan of him last season, but he had injury trouble all year and that concussion in the Orlando series definitely rattled him.  Why do I feel more confident for this year?  He was resigned by the team.  They definitely feel he can provide a positive impact, more than last year.  If he comes in only as a defender, I think he could provide some of what TA did.  Is it as good?  Not quite.

But Nate Robinson will have a bigger role and played some very good defense in the playoffs at time.  Wafer may not have much, we will have to see, but I think he'll be able to shoot at least, and he certainly won't be worse than Finley, who he basically is replacing.  Between the 3 of them, we have enough I believe.  Maybe not quite as good, but I wouldn't overrate TA and the upgrades inside will help us.

We were a terrible rebounding team last year.  We will already be a lot better.  I'm all for making more of a post focus for this team.

Anyways, basically it seems we are looking to bring in a another wing on the cheap.  Maybe we can get someone good, but I really don't see them trading BBD.  They like him and he will be useful this upcoming year, despite the frontcourt upgrades we've made.  Again, Shaq won't play every game and other guys could use less minutes and games off.

[LilRip]

You didn't read my post?  The point was if we have any injuries in our frontcourt or Perk does not return at full strength or at all (which again are both possibilities) then we have no chance to win the title this year if that is our front court.

We would also be screwed without Prince if say Pierce went down, but Pierce has been healthy as has the rest of our backcourt (save Quis), Jermaine, Perk, KG are all with recent history of major injuries.

We saw in the Finals that if a big goes down we will be screwed.  With this Prince trade we are in the same situation if say Perk went down again.

If Prince could play enough PF well enough, maybe then.  But I don't know if he could and seriously would not want him to against teams like LA.  We would have a much better backup wing, yes, but I think we need the front court depth.  I would love Prince but I think the cost is too high for what we give up inside.

Maybe if there is a decent enough big available for the veterans minimum, but I don't think there are.

If everyone remains healthy this is a better option, but I would not be able to take losing another title because of a frontcourt injury that can't be recovered from because of a lack of depth.

You do realize that Bynum is also injury-prone. If he went down (again), who does LA turn to? Ratliff?? Gasol will have to play center and Odom will play the 4 and we can match up with that pretty well.

and if Dwight gets an ACL (i don't think Perk has a history with knee injuries), then the Magic are screwed because they have Gortat and none else.

Injuries will screw any team up. However, relying on passable talent (Quis, who will also surely go down again this season, & Wafer) isn't a good strategy because that way, we'll be kinda screwed even if we are at full strength. PP and RA shouldn't play that many minutes so that they can still finish strong. Prince is very capable.



- LilRip

1) We can talk hypotheticals among other teams if we want but I just am thinking about last year... if we had a decent enough 5th big to step up for Perkins we would have won the NBA title.


2) Just because other teams are thin up front doesn't mean we should be.  Bynum has an injury history but Howard does not.  Either way, both are young and we have old bigs who are injury prone... not a good combo. Certainly less favorable than the other situations. 

Also, BBD would be an asset if you manage the regular season keeping an eye on the postseason, as you should.  You can then give the old bigs reduced minutes or games off during the season.  Did anyone watch Shaq the last couple regular seasons?  He takes games off.  Big Baby would be happy for more regular season PT and the old guys would benefit in the  Playoffs from more rest (and less time on the court they could get injured in pointless regular season games)


3) Besides the changes in bigs, our team is mostly the same.  We lost TA, but added Wafer.  Nate will play a bigger role this year, hopefully Quis remains healthy, and Wafer will play some minutes.  That is basically where TA's playing time will go (barring some sort of trade like the one for Prince).  So basically you think TA is that good?  If things go well, Quis can be the stopper we need and Wafer can bring in the offense (that Finley was supposed to). We came within a handful of points from winning the NBA title, and it wasn't because of anything but a lack of frontcourt depth (and Ray's missing shots, but that is unpredictable ).  Our backcourt is not just "passable talent" if it was that close to a title.

1) i'm not the one who brought in hypotheticals. It was you. to quote you "We saw in the Finals that if a big goes down we will be screwed." At which point I responded that if a big had gone down for LA, they would've been screwed too and we would've won. It was a stroke of bad luck that Perk went down with an injury that bad.

2) Dwight has no injury history and Perk has no knee injury history either. big deal. Injuries happen. Shaun Livingston had no knee injury history either and he's still rehabbing. You think Dwight would've returned for game 7 if he had torn his ACL the previous game? or Gasol?

yes, it's nice to have a plethora of big men, but a team only has limited resources of talent and roster slots. I'd much rather have a highly capable 1st(!!!) wing off the bench than keeping a capable 4th or 5th big. If it was a trade off between a 1st wing and a 1st big, then i'd side with the big. But we're talking 5th. again, to invoke your hypotheticals...

If Pierce had been the one to go down with injury, a lineup of Rondo-Ray-Prince-KG-Perk would've stood a better chance than a lineup of Rondo-Ray-Tony-KG-Perk.

3) and how many meaningful minutes did Marquis play in that series? he played a whopping, wait for it..... 4 min and 21 secs! and 4:14 of that came in garbage time!

and how good is Von Wafer again? you could be sold on him, probably because he's a Celtic now and you're a Celtics fan, but the fact that he couldn't get back to Greece and he failed 2 NBA physicals doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me. so yes, TA is better than them and TA played some big productive minutes for us last playoffs. so yes, right now, our bench backcourt is just passable.



- LilRip

I will say again, just because other teams are thin up front doesn't mean we should be.  Yes the Lakers would of been screwed, but we were screwed by Perk going down, that is the reality.  Although Bynum has a history of knee injuries, our bigs are probably more likely to go down.

The injury history of our bigs is much more important than you factor in.  Yes, people can have devastating injuries out of the blue, but often times guys consistently have these problems, ESPECIALLY at an advanced age.  I know I don't want to risk it and again, BBD will be very useful in the regular season because he will love to play more minutes and him playing more minutes will keep our other bigs fresh.  Do you think Shaq will play every game this regular season too?  Beacause I guarentee he will not.  BBD will step in then.

And with the injury factor, yes Pierce or Ray or Rondo could go down but these guys have less of an injury history.  If you're hedging you bets you insure the front court.



There can be value in having a better wing but the thinking on my part is the value and strengths of our team in matching up with other contenders will come from the front court.  The Lakers dominated us with size, Orlando's success is totally based on Dwight Howard, and Miami will be a great team I believe but if they do have a weakness it will be inside.  A wing matching up to guard say LBJ could be useful, but instead I would rather pound it inside.

The bigs give us our best chance I believe.  We already are an old team, so adding a wing isn't really going to make us youthful, athletic, or fast (though it could help).  I would rather instead become a great and deep frontcourt team.


As for Quis, trust me I was not a fan of him last season, but he had injury trouble all year and that concussion in the Orlando series definitely rattled him.  Why do I feel more confident for this year?  He was resigned by the team.  They definitely feel he can provide a positive impact, more than last year.  If he comes in only as a defender, I think he could provide some of what TA did.  Is it as good?  Not quite.

But Nate Robinson will have a bigger role and played some very good defense in the playoffs at time.  Wafer may not have much, we will have to see, but I think he'll be able to shoot at least, and he certainly won't be worse than Finley, who he basically is replacing.  Between the 3 of them, we have enough I believe.  Maybe not quite as good, but I wouldn't overrate TA and the upgrades inside will help us.

We were a terrible rebounding team last year.  We will already be a lot better.  I'm all for making more of a post focus for this team.

Anyways, basically it seems we are looking to bring in a another wing on the cheap.  Maybe we can get someone good, but I really don't see them trading BBD.  They like him and he will be useful this upcoming year, despite the frontcourt upgrades we've made.  Again, Shaq won't play every game and other guys could use less minutes and games off.

Gasol played 65 games last year. So did Bynum. Injury, unfortunately, seems to be a part of the game. JO played 70 games and KG played 69 games. Perk was pretty durable for us, despite some shoulder pains, as he played 78 games last year.

and also, i'm assuming you think Quis will play every game? I guarantee you he will not in the same way you can guarantee that Shaq will not. I read a stat somewhere that Marquis has missed 20+ games in each season except 1 (where he played 74). That is a consistent <62 game season. We brought him back not because he's the best option but because we could afford him. Do you think management would rather we have Quis for 4m/2yrs or TA for 6m/2yrs? TA wanted more years and a bigger role which we couldn't give and that's why he walked. I'm not overrating TA, but i'm not one to discredit the terrific D he played. I'm not even that big of a fan of TA but he was quite productive.

And what about Von Wafer, who failed physicals due to a bad back (or something to that effect)? Does this not alert you in the same way that our bigs are injury-prone?

I'm not suggesting we should be thin up front. I'm suggesting we should bolster other positions we're still quite weak at, which is the back up wing. We can then sign a guy like Louis Amundson, or whoever, to be our 5th big. Some serviceable role player who can play as the 4th big in the mean time. some other posters have suggested some names out there available for the vet min.

finally, as for matching up with the other contenders.. We have the deepest front court right now. Having Shaq-JO-KG and Perk later on (even at 85%) can match up against Bynum-Gasol-Odom and Dwight-Gortat. As for the Heat, we have an advantage over them too in terms of bigs because they only have Haslem-Bosh (which isn't that bad to be honest). However, for that advantage to have any significance to us, our wings should be able to hold their own against their strength, which is LBJ and Wade. and that's where the usefulness of a capable backup wing will be. If their wings get Pierce or RA in foul trouble, whatever advantage our bigs had will be a wash coz we can't stop their wings either. Quis might be able to do it, but that's if he's even healthy.



- LilRip

[Snakehead]

Gasol played 65 games last year. So did Bynum. Injury, unfortunately, seems to be a part of the game. JO played 70 games and KG played 69 games. Perk was pretty durable for us, despite some shoulder pains, as he played 78 games last year.

and also, i'm assuming you think Quis will play every game? I guarantee you he will not in the same way you can guarantee that Shaq will not. I read a stat somewhere that Marquis has missed 20+ games in each season except 1 (where he played 74). That is a consistent <62 game season. We brought him back not because he's the best option but because we could afford him. Do you think management would rather we have Quis for 4m/2yrs or TA for 6m/2yrs? TA wanted more years and a bigger role which we couldn't give and that's why he walked. I'm not overrating TA, but i'm not one to discredit the terrific D he played. I'm not even that big of a fan of TA but he was quite productive.

And what about Von Wafer, who failed physicals due to a bad back (or something to that effect)? Does this not alert you in the same way that our bigs are injury-prone?

I'm not suggesting we should be thin up front. I'm suggesting we should bolster other positions we're still quite weak at, which is the back up wing. We can then sign a guy like Louis Amundson, or whoever, to be our 5th big. Some serviceable role player who can play as the 4th big in the mean time. some other posters have suggested some names out there available for the vet min.

finally, as for matching up with the other contenders.. We have the deepest front court right now. Having Shaq-JO-KG and Perk later on (even at 85%) can match up against Bynum-Gasol-Odom and Dwight-Gortat. As for the Heat, we have an advantage over them too in terms of bigs because they only have Haslem-Bosh (which isn't that bad to be honest). However, for that advantage to have any significance to us, our wings should be able to hold their own against their strength, which is LBJ and Wade. and that's where the usefulness of a capable backup wing will be. If their wings get Pierce or RA in foul trouble, whatever advantage our bigs had will be a wash coz we can't stop their wings either. Quis might be able to do it, but that's if he's even healthy.



- LilRip

This Louis Amudson talk is way far off for one.  I've seen him mentioned and there is not chance he comes here for the veterans minimum. He is worth more than that.  He would be as good for us as BBD I believe.  If we could trade BBD for Prince and walk into a replacement as good as BBD, SURE, I'd do that obviously but there is no way that happens.  At the vet min for a big now, we end up with some old scrub who can't hang.

By comparison, if we hold onto BBD, we can get a more capable wing.  Not a big fan of him, but Larry Hughes for example would be more talented at his position than anyone we could pick up for the veterans minimum at the PF/C position.  Jarvis Hayes as well.

With another vet min wing, we don't have a guarenteed wing option, but we have a sort of "wing by commitee".  Larry Hughes and Quis can play D.  Nate can play the 2.  Hughes and Wafer can provide some shooting.  And if they are hurt for stretches we have other wings of a similar caliber to step in.  Not ideal, but not bad.  Certainly better than the big situation because we would have a terrible 5th big in this scenario I believe.

As for countering Miami, a lot of their strength with their wings will be finishing at or around the rim, so bigs challenging them at the rim will be very valuable.  I say that wouuld be a better tactic than trying to get guys who could "stay with them" or whatever, because you simply cannot do that.  Wade and LBJ blow past everyone.  We beat them because we played team D and didn't let them get into the paint as often.  I'd rather bring great help D from the paint, because they will inevitably be beaten.  It would help, don't get me wrong, but it's not like our guys matching up against LBJ and Wade will actually outplay them.  I think taking it inside is a much smarter tactic.  And if we have a lot more depth than other teams plus BBD, GREAT.  We kill them inside then and win those games.  Again, just because other teams are thin up front does not mean we should be.



Look, I'd love Prince and BBD if it was possible. Sheed's contract has been waived now, so it ain't happening regardless.  Players around that talent level are out of the equation anyways. But judging the realities of this team and the market for talent to bring in, getting another vet min wing and holding pat on our bigs is a less risky and smarter move. And it's better for matching up with the best teams.  The wing situation would not be ideal but we'd have enough guys that specialize in certain areas and if injuries came up, we'd have other guys who could step in.  Like if Quis is injured, Hughes can become a defensive guy we bring in.

[LilRip]

Gasol played 65 games last year. So did Bynum. Injury, unfortunately, seems to be a part of the game. JO played 70 games and KG played 69 games. Perk was pretty durable for us, despite some shoulder pains, as he played 78 games last year.

and also, i'm assuming you think Quis will play every game? I guarantee you he will not in the same way you can guarantee that Shaq will not. I read a stat somewhere that Marquis has missed 20+ games in each season except 1 (where he played 74). That is a consistent <62 game season. We brought him back not because he's the best option but because we could afford him. Do you think management would rather we have Quis for 4m/2yrs or TA for 6m/2yrs? TA wanted more years and a bigger role which we couldn't give and that's why he walked. I'm not overrating TA, but i'm not one to discredit the terrific D he played. I'm not even that big of a fan of TA but he was quite productive.

And what about Von Wafer, who failed physicals due to a bad back (or something to that effect)? Does this not alert you in the same way that our bigs are injury-prone?

I'm not suggesting we should be thin up front. I'm suggesting we should bolster other positions we're still quite weak at, which is the back up wing. We can then sign a guy like Louis Amundson, or whoever, to be our 5th big. Some serviceable role player who can play as the 4th big in the mean time. some other posters have suggested some names out there available for the vet min.

finally, as for matching up with the other contenders.. We have the deepest front court right now. Having Shaq-JO-KG and Perk later on (even at 85%) can match up against Bynum-Gasol-Odom and Dwight-Gortat. As for the Heat, we have an advantage over them too in terms of bigs because they only have Haslem-Bosh (which isn't that bad to be honest). However, for that advantage to have any significance to us, our wings should be able to hold their own against their strength, which is LBJ and Wade. and that's where the usefulness of a capable backup wing will be. If their wings get Pierce or RA in foul trouble, whatever advantage our bigs had will be a wash coz we can't stop their wings either. Quis might be able to do it, but that's if he's even healthy.



- LilRip

This Louis Amudson talk is way far off for one.  I've seen him mentioned and there is not chance he comes here for the veterans minimum. He is worth more than that.  He would be as good for us as BBD I believe.  If we could trade BBD for Prince and walk into a replacement as good as BBD, SURE, I'd do that obviously but there is no way that happens.  At the vet min for a big now, we end up with some old scrub who can't hang.

By comparison, if we hold onto BBD, we can get a more capable wing.  Not a big fan of him, but Larry Hughes for example would be more talented at his position than anyone we could pick up for the veterans minimum at the PF/C position.  Jarvis Hayes as well.

With another vet min wing, we don't have a guarenteed wing option, but we have a sort of "wing by commitee".  Larry Hughes and Quis can play D.  Nate can play the 2.  Hughes and Wafer can provide some shooting.  And if they are hurt for stretches we have other wings of a similar caliber to step in.  Not ideal, but not bad.  Certainly better than the big situation because we would have a terrible 5th big in this scenario I believe.

As for countering Miami, a lot of their strength with their wings will be finishing at or around the rim, so bigs challenging them at the rim will be very valuable.  I say that wouuld be a better tactic than trying to get guys who could "stay with them" or whatever, because you simply cannot do that.  Wade and LBJ blow past everyone.  We beat them because we played team D and didn't let them get into the paint as often.  I'd rather bring great help D from the paint, because they will inevitably be beaten.  It would help, don't get me wrong, but it's not like our guys matching up against LBJ and Wade will actually outplay them.  I think taking it inside is a much smarter tactic.  And if we have a lot more depth than other teams plus BBD, GREAT.  We kill them inside then and win those games.  Again, just because other teams are thin up front does not mean we should be.



Look, I'd love Prince and BBD if it was possible. Sheed's contract has been waived now, so it ain't happening regardless.  Players around that talent level are out of the equation anyways. But judging the realities of this team and the market for talent to bring in, getting another vet min wing and holding pat on our bigs is a less risky and smarter move. And it's better for matching up with the best teams.  The wing situation would not be ideal but we'd have enough guys that specialize in certain areas and if injuries came up, we'd have other guys who could step in.  Like if Quis is injured, Hughes can become a defensive guy we bring in.

Larry Hughes is truly, truly terrible. truly terrible. I hope we don't sign him. He can't shoot or play D. I'd rather we play Wafer ahead of him.

as for a terrible 5th big... do you realize just how few minutes a 5th big plays?? How many meaningful minutes did Shelden Williams play for us in the playoffs? One game (when KG was suspended). 18 minutes of 2pts and 6rebs. Not bad, to be honest. If we sign a guy like Oberto or Earl Barron as a 5th, that's honestly not so bad. Oberto as a 5th big is better than Hughes as the first or 2nd wing off the bench.

we're not getting Prince and keeping BBD. that's not possible. and with Sheed waived, it seems we can't get Prince even if he's reportedly being shopped now due to the signing of T-Mac. But in order to get quality, you must give up something of quality.  BBD is our only tradeable asset (or Perk). And i'd rather his talent level (which is a solid role player) be made into a wing rather that could get minutes rather than us keeping it stashed away in a Shelden Williams-esque role.



- LilRip

[Snakehead]

Gasol played 65 games last year. So did Bynum. Injury, unfortunately, seems to be a part of the game. JO played 70 games and KG played 69 games. Perk was pretty durable for us, despite some shoulder pains, as he played 78 games last year.

and also, i'm assuming you think Quis will play every game? I guarantee you he will not in the same way you can guarantee that Shaq will not. I read a stat somewhere that Marquis has missed 20+ games in each season except 1 (where he played 74). That is a consistent <62 game season. We brought him back not because he's the best option but because we could afford him. Do you think management would rather we have Quis for 4m/2yrs or TA for 6m/2yrs? TA wanted more years and a bigger role which we couldn't give and that's why he walked. I'm not overrating TA, but i'm not one to discredit the terrific D he played. I'm not even that big of a fan of TA but he was quite productive.

And what about Von Wafer, who failed physicals due to a bad back (or something to that effect)? Does this not alert you in the same way that our bigs are injury-prone?

I'm not suggesting we should be thin up front. I'm suggesting we should bolster other positions we're still quite weak at, which is the back up wing. We can then sign a guy like Louis Amundson, or whoever, to be our 5th big. Some serviceable role player who can play as the 4th big in the mean time. some other posters have suggested some names out there available for the vet min.

finally, as for matching up with the other contenders.. We have the deepest front court right now. Having Shaq-JO-KG and Perk later on (even at 85%) can match up against Bynum-Gasol-Odom and Dwight-Gortat. As for the Heat, we have an advantage over them too in terms of bigs because they only have Haslem-Bosh (which isn't that bad to be honest). However, for that advantage to have any significance to us, our wings should be able to hold their own against their strength, which is LBJ and Wade. and that's where the usefulness of a capable backup wing will be. If their wings get Pierce or RA in foul trouble, whatever advantage our bigs had will be a wash coz we can't stop their wings either. Quis might be able to do it, but that's if he's even healthy.



- LilRip

This Louis Amudson talk is way far off for one.  I've seen him mentioned and there is not chance he comes here for the veterans minimum. He is worth more than that.  He would be as good for us as BBD I believe.  If we could trade BBD for Prince and walk into a replacement as good as BBD, SURE, I'd do that obviously but there is no way that happens.  At the vet min for a big now, we end up with some old scrub who can't hang.

By comparison, if we hold onto BBD, we can get a more capable wing.  Not a big fan of him, but Larry Hughes for example would be more talented at his position than anyone we could pick up for the veterans minimum at the PF/C position.  Jarvis Hayes as well.

With another vet min wing, we don't have a guarenteed wing option, but we have a sort of "wing by commitee".  Larry Hughes and Quis can play D.  Nate can play the 2.  Hughes and Wafer can provide some shooting.  And if they are hurt for stretches we have other wings of a similar caliber to step in.  Not ideal, but not bad.  Certainly better than the big situation because we would have a terrible 5th big in this scenario I believe.

As for countering Miami, a lot of their strength with their wings will be finishing at or around the rim, so bigs challenging them at the rim will be very valuable.  I say that wouuld be a better tactic than trying to get guys who could "stay with them" or whatever, because you simply cannot do that.  Wade and LBJ blow past everyone.  We beat them because we played team D and didn't let them get into the paint as often.  I'd rather bring great help D from the paint, because they will inevitably be beaten.  It would help, don't get me wrong, but it's not like our guys matching up against LBJ and Wade will actually outplay them.  I think taking it inside is a much smarter tactic.  And if we have a lot more depth than other teams plus BBD, GREAT.  We kill them inside then and win those games.  Again, just because other teams are thin up front does not mean we should be.



Look, I'd love Prince and BBD if it was possible. Sheed's contract has been waived now, so it ain't happening regardless.  Players around that talent level are out of the equation anyways. But judging the realities of this team and the market for talent to bring in, getting another vet min wing and holding pat on our bigs is a less risky and smarter move. And it's better for matching up with the best teams.  The wing situation would not be ideal but we'd have enough guys that specialize in certain areas and if injuries came up, we'd have other guys who could step in.  Like if Quis is injured, Hughes can become a defensive guy we bring in.

Larry Hughes is truly, truly terrible. truly terrible. I hope we don't sign him. He can't shoot or play D. I'd rather we play Wafer ahead of him.

as for a terrible 5th big... do you realize just how few minutes a 5th big plays?? How many meaningful minutes did Shelden Williams play for us in the playoffs? One game (when KG was suspended). 18 minutes of 2pts and 6rebs. Not bad, to be honest. If we sign a guy like Oberto or Earl Barron as a 5th, that's honestly not so bad. Oberto as a 5th big is better than Hughes as the first or 2nd wing off the bench.

we're not getting Prince and keeping BBD. that's not possible. and with Sheed waived, it seems we can't get Prince even if he's reportedly being shopped now due to the signing of T-Mac. But in order to get quality, you must give up something of quality.  BBD is our only tradeable asset (or Perk). And i'd rather his talent level (which is a solid role player) be made into a wing rather that could get minutes rather than us keeping it stashed away in a Shelden Williams-esque role.



- LilRip

I am no Larry Hughes fan at all but he is not a terrible player.  He's just alright.  He is at the same level as Wafer.  I don't see how you could possibly think Wafer is that much better than him.  He can shoot and he plays pretty solid D actually.

Like I have said many times, a 5th big on this team will see more minutes than normal during the regular season because Shaq does not play every game and the other guys will want to keep their minutes down and take occasional games off. So he will often not be the 5th big.

In the Playoffs?  Yes, not that many minutes there, but if you need him due to suspension, injury, or even for a few minutes, BBD is a GREAT 5th big that can make an impact.  In 18 minutes he would produce more than 6 boards and 2 pts.  And Sheldon Williams played maybe the worst 2-3 minutes of basketball I have ever seen in the Finals when he threw that inbounds pass to Kobe for the 3 and missed that dunk.  That's why you can't have a scrub big man coming in like that.

I'll take the frontcout depth and keep the "wing by committe" tactic.  I pretty much guarentee Danny will too.  BBD is not being traded unless we could get a deal too good to pass up.

[LilRip]

Gasol played 65 games last year. So did Bynum. Injury, unfortunately, seems to be a part of the game. JO played 70 games and KG played 69 games. Perk was pretty durable for us, despite some shoulder pains, as he played 78 games last year.

and also, i'm assuming you think Quis will play every game? I guarantee you he will not in the same way you can guarantee that Shaq will not. I read a stat somewhere that Marquis has missed 20+ games in each season except 1 (where he played 74). That is a consistent <62 game season. We brought him back not because he's the best option but because we could afford him. Do you think management would rather we have Quis for 4m/2yrs or TA for 6m/2yrs? TA wanted more years and a bigger role which we couldn't give and that's why he walked. I'm not overrating TA, but i'm not one to discredit the terrific D he played. I'm not even that big of a fan of TA but he was quite productive.

And what about Von Wafer, who failed physicals due to a bad back (or something to that effect)? Does this not alert you in the same way that our bigs are injury-prone?

I'm not suggesting we should be thin up front. I'm suggesting we should bolster other positions we're still quite weak at, which is the back up wing. We can then sign a guy like Louis Amundson, or whoever, to be our 5th big. Some serviceable role player who can play as the 4th big in the mean time. some other posters have suggested some names out there available for the vet min.

finally, as for matching up with the other contenders.. We have the deepest front court right now. Having Shaq-JO-KG and Perk later on (even at 85%) can match up against Bynum-Gasol-Odom and Dwight-Gortat. As for the Heat, we have an advantage over them too in terms of bigs because they only have Haslem-Bosh (which isn't that bad to be honest). However, for that advantage to have any significance to us, our wings should be able to hold their own against their strength, which is LBJ and Wade. and that's where the usefulness of a capable backup wing will be. If their wings get Pierce or RA in foul trouble, whatever advantage our bigs had will be a wash coz we can't stop their wings either. Quis might be able to do it, but that's if he's even healthy.



- LilRip

This Louis Amudson talk is way far off for one.  I've seen him mentioned and there is not chance he comes here for the veterans minimum. He is worth more than that.  He would be as good for us as BBD I believe.  If we could trade BBD for Prince and walk into a replacement as good as BBD, SURE, I'd do that obviously but there is no way that happens.  At the vet min for a big now, we end up with some old scrub who can't hang.

By comparison, if we hold onto BBD, we can get a more capable wing.  Not a big fan of him, but Larry Hughes for example would be more talented at his position than anyone we could pick up for the veterans minimum at the PF/C position.  Jarvis Hayes as well.

With another vet min wing, we don't have a guarenteed wing option, but we have a sort of "wing by commitee".  Larry Hughes and Quis can play D.  Nate can play the 2.  Hughes and Wafer can provide some shooting.  And if they are hurt for stretches we have other wings of a similar caliber to step in.  Not ideal, but not bad.  Certainly better than the big situation because we would have a terrible 5th big in this scenario I believe.

As for countering Miami, a lot of their strength with their wings will be finishing at or around the rim, so bigs challenging them at the rim will be very valuable.  I say that wouuld be a better tactic than trying to get guys who could "stay with them" or whatever, because you simply cannot do that.  Wade and LBJ blow past everyone.  We beat them because we played team D and didn't let them get into the paint as often.  I'd rather bring great help D from the paint, because they will inevitably be beaten.  It would help, don't get me wrong, but it's not like our guys matching up against LBJ and Wade will actually outplay them.  I think taking it inside is a much smarter tactic.  And if we have a lot more depth than other teams plus BBD, GREAT.  We kill them inside then and win those games.  Again, just because other teams are thin up front does not mean we should be.



Look, I'd love Prince and BBD if it was possible. Sheed's contract has been waived now, so it ain't happening regardless.  Players around that talent level are out of the equation anyways. But judging the realities of this team and the market for talent to bring in, getting another vet min wing and holding pat on our bigs is a less risky and smarter move. And it's better for matching up with the best teams.  The wing situation would not be ideal but we'd have enough guys that specialize in certain areas and if injuries came up, we'd have other guys who could step in.  Like if Quis is injured, Hughes can become a defensive guy we bring in.

Larry Hughes is truly, truly terrible. truly terrible. I hope we don't sign him. He can't shoot or play D. I'd rather we play Wafer ahead of him.

as for a terrible 5th big... do you realize just how few minutes a 5th big plays?? How many meaningful minutes did Shelden Williams play for us in the playoffs? One game (when KG was suspended). 18 minutes of 2pts and 6rebs. Not bad, to be honest. If we sign a guy like Oberto or Earl Barron as a 5th, that's honestly not so bad. Oberto as a 5th big is better than Hughes as the first or 2nd wing off the bench.

we're not getting Prince and keeping BBD. that's not possible. and with Sheed waived, it seems we can't get Prince even if he's reportedly being shopped now due to the signing of T-Mac. But in order to get quality, you must give up something of quality.  BBD is our only tradeable asset (or Perk). And i'd rather his talent level (which is a solid role player) be made into a wing rather that could get minutes rather than us keeping it stashed away in a Shelden Williams-esque role.



- LilRip

I am no Larry Hughes fan at all but he is not a terrible player.  He's just alright.  He is at the same level as Wafer.  I don't see how you could possibly think Wafer is that much better than him.  He can shoot and he plays pretty solid D actually.

Like I have said many times, a 5th big on this team will see more minutes than normal during the regular season because Shaq does not play every game and the other guys will want to keep their minutes down and take occasional games off. So he will often not be the 5th big.

In the Playoffs?  Yes, not that many minutes there, but if you need him due to suspension, injury, or even for a few minutes, BBD is a GREAT 5th big that can make an impact.  In 18 minutes he would produce more than 6 boards and 2 pts.  And Sheldon Williams played maybe the worst 2-3 minutes of basketball I have ever seen in the Finals when he threw that inbounds pass to Kobe for the 3 and missed that dunk.  That's why you can't have a scrub big man coming in like that.

I'll take the frontcout depth and keep the "wing by committe" tactic.  I pretty much guarentee Danny will too.  BBD is not being traded unless we could get a deal too good to pass up.

Because Wafer can actually shoot at a good clip and Larry Hughes cannot. Hughes is more of a "shooter" than a shooter. And Wafer is 6 years younger which hopefully translates into more athleticism. Add to that, Hughes seems to have forgotten how to play D when he left Washington. And that was a loooong time ago.

yeah, SW totally blew it in that one play but that other game he played was pretty decent. to put it in perspective, when BBD played around 18 minutes in the playoffs, he got 8pts-7rbs (on 13 shot attempts), 3pts-3rbs, 6pts-7rbs, 4pts-1rb, 5pts-3rbs, 5pts-2rbs and 4pts-3rbs. So as you can see, 2pts-6rbs isn't too shabby comparatively. Not saying Shelden could or should play bigger minutes. But for the spot-up duty, it was decent.

admittedly, one game is a really small sample size, if you can even call it a sample size. But that's exactly my point. A 5th big will play maybe one meaningful game in an entire playoff run. as opposed to a solid wing player who will be your first wing off the bench for the whole playoffs. see the disparity in usage?

i doubt you'll ever budge on your stance so i guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one. But I really would prefer seeing a more capable 1st wing off the bench than a capable 5th big. We'll just have more use for a first wing off the bench. I think FanfromVT has a pretty good thread going on about potential prospects. Imagine being able to acquire someone like Jared Dudley or Thaddeus Young. They're much better than Hughes and i'd prefer them over Quis too.

You're probably right though in that DA won't make any trades this off-season. I think that he's mistaken in that regard.



- LilRip

[Snakehead]

Because Wafer can actually shoot at a good clip and Larry Hughes cannot. Hughes is more of a "shooter" than a shooter. And Wafer is 6 years younger which hopefully translates into more athleticism. Add to that, Hughes seems to have forgotten how to play D when he left Washington. And that was a loooong time ago.

yeah, SW totally blew it in that one play but that other game he played was pretty decent. to put it in perspective, when BBD played around 18 minutes in the playoffs, he got 8pts-7rbs (on 13 shot attempts), 3pts-3rbs, 6pts-7rbs, 4pts-1rb, 5pts-3rbs, 5pts-2rbs and 4pts-3rbs. So as you can see, 2pts-6rbs isn't too shabby comparatively. Not saying Shelden could or should play bigger minutes. But for the spot-up duty, it was decent.

admittedly, one game is a really small sample size, if you can even call it a sample size. But that's exactly my point. A 5th big will play maybe one meaningful game in an entire playoff run. as opposed to a solid wing player who will be your first wing off the bench for the whole playoffs. see the disparity in usage?

i doubt you'll ever budge on your stance so i guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one. But I really would prefer seeing a more capable 1st wing off the bench than a capable 5th big. We'll just have more use for a first wing off the bench. I think FanfromVT has a pretty good thread going on about potential prospects. Imagine being able to acquire someone like Jared Dudley or Thaddeus Young. They're much better than Hughes and i'd prefer them over Quis too.

You're probably right though in that DA won't make any trades this off-season. I think that he's mistaken in that regard.



- LilRip

Well we know Hughes can play D, and if he ever will it would be here.  The defensive mindset plus the fact that it would be the best team he's ever played on before would have that effect I believe.

And BBD wouldn't put up that much more, you are right, but I think he would play MUCH better defense (which isn't showing up there) and wouldn't make bone head plays like that.  He also hustles and does the small things.  And again there we are talking Playoffs, and BBD's value would be much higher in the regular season when he would be playing more minutes.


But again, if there was a deal good enough that we could not pass up I would not be against it, but I just think that will not be happening.  It seems like we will only have vet min options.  If we could get Dudley that would be nice and I'd really think about it, but Thaddeous Young would be a no brainer IMO.  He can play some PF too, so it would work out perfect.  But he would not be traded straight up for BBD, that'd make no sense for Philly.   I'd say Dudley is more likely, since BBD could be a nice addition to a team that is thin up front, but I don't think either is going to be moved.


If the market was better I'd think more about it but it's the reality that there are better vet min wing's than there are bigs.  Keeping BBD is less risky and I think will bolster our inside strength.


At the trade deadline we can look around.  May be good options then and we will have a better idea how Perk is recovering from his injury.  If we think he will be back at a high level and have a good option, trading BBD then for a good return would be a better move, as he will be buried further down the depth chart later and by the deadline there may be better players to trade for.

[chr8400]

baby is an inconsistent player - a bad shooter- get rid of him
 - i would prefer prince - an excellent underrated player

[ralph]

Im willing to put money down that We will not make anymore changes to the roster. Danny has made it clear that he will not trade any picks away (he could of had Rudy for a 1st). Prince is old! with how the current contracts have been structured, it looks like the magical year for rebuilding will be in 2012. It is stupid to trade a 1st round pick for a old player on his last year. I want DA to build this team the OKC way.