CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: slightly biased bias fan on November 13, 2017, 07:23:34 PM
-
Hear me out!
I love how Kyrie is functioning in our offence and I think he is only going to improve, but pundits and fans alike have been raving about how much Irving has changed this season but if you look at his statistics this year in comparison to his career they are almost identical.
Career: 21.6 PPG 3.4 RPG 5.5 AST / 45.6 FG% 38.1 FG3% 87.3 FT%
17/18: 20.3 PPG 3.1 RPG 5.2 AST / 44.4 FG% 32.1 FG3% 88.4 FT%
Kyrie seems much more engaged on defence but his steals averages have only slightly increased from 1.3 career to 1.9 so it hasn't been the dramatic change that the media's narrative has spun.
-
I agree. Let sports media tell it, and you'd think Kyrie was putting up MVP type numbers the way people rave about him like he's the sole reason for Boston's success this season. Dude is shooting under 30% from 3 his last 5 games (not including the Hornets game). His play has been pretty underwhelming thus far but it speaks to the depth and resilience of this ball club more than anything. Once Kyrie's shot comes back, the team will be on another level offensively.
-
Steals is not the only defensive statistic. You are completely ignoring all actual defensive stats
“It's not just the steals or Boston's defensive rating when Irving is on the court, it's his obvious effort and desire to contribute on that end of the floor.
In his six seasons in Cleveland, Irving held an average defensive rating of 106.9. Through 11 games with Boston, that number is down 11.4 points to 95.5, even lower than Boston's league-best rating of 95.9.”
“Kyrie Irving is putting up some of the best individual numbers of his career this season. Here's a look at his career defensive rating via NBA data, as well as his points allowed per possession via Synergy Sports data.” http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21329484/kyrie-irving-boston-celtics-flat-dominating-defense
-
Yeah, agree, but I think it's encouraging to see Kyrie having this kind of impact DESPITE not shooting that well to start the season, and his defense I'll admit is definitely a big upgrade from Isaiah's "defense" last season, so that's a bit of a difference.
And this is coming from someone who hated that Kyrie trade 1.5 months ago.
-
It's definitely a combo of things.
Kyrie gets much praise from me, but Jaylen has stepped up his game, Jayson is playing like a 1st team All-Rookie, Big Al is even more engaged and - while seemingly having more fun this year he is ALSO playing like a man on a mission...
Add in Aron playing the role of Kendrick Perkins, Marcus Morris' timely arrival and production, Theis coming out of nowhere to produce and the rest of the bench playing well and we've had a perfect storm.
And Coach Stevens doesn't get enough credit and never will - and I believe he WANTS it like that.
It would've been acceptable for this team to be only 6-8 or worse after Hayward went down but Coach Stevens wasn't having it.
-
Hear me out!
I love how Kyrie is functioning in our offence and I think he is only going to improve, but pundits and fans alike have been raving about how much Irving has changed this season but if you look at his statistics this year in comparison to his career they are almost identical.
Career: 21.6 PPG 3.4 RPG 5.5 AST / 45.6 FG% 38.1 FG3% 87.3 FT%
17/18: 20.3 PPG 3.1 RPG 5.2 AST / 44.4 FG% 32.1 FG3% 88.4 FT%
Kyrie seems much more engaged on defence but his steals averages have only slightly increased from 1.3 career to 1.9 so it hasn't been the dramatic change that the media's narrative has spun.
I disagree, And this is from someone who loves Isaiah Thomas.
He is trending towards being a much more complete plater now.
And 1.3 to 1.9 is a 50% increase. That's pretty substantial.
-
Last year, it was Isaiah Thomas who gets the all the credit for Celtic's success. Brad Steven wasn't even considered a top 3 coach and that was blasphemous.
-
Who are the people and why should they cool it exactly?
So far career high in net rating, scoring coming as advertised, clutch scoring coming as advertised, and defense is better than advertised.
+14 net rating and a DRtg of 97 might be unsustainable but even with some regression he is still a better option than supernova Isaiah last year who may never hit that level again.
-
Hear me out!
I love how Kyrie is functioning in our offence and I think he is only going to improve, but pundits and fans alike have been raving about how much Irving has changed this season but if you look at his statistics this year in comparison to his career they are almost identical.
Career: 21.6 PPG 3.4 RPG 5.5 AST / 45.6 FG% 38.1 FG3% 87.3 FT%
17/18: 20.3 PPG 3.1 RPG 5.2 AST / 44.4 FG% 32.1 FG3% 88.4 FT%
Kyrie seems much more engaged on defence but his steals averages have only slightly increased from 1.3 career to 1.9 so it hasn't been the dramatic change that the media's narrative has spun.
Hear me out!
I love how Kyrie is functioning in our offence and I think he is only going to improve, but pundits and fans alike have been raving about how much Irving has changed this season but if you look at his statistics this year in comparison to his career they are almost identical.
Career: 21.6 PPG 3.4 RPG 5.5 AST / 45.6 FG% 38.1 FG3% 87.3 FT%
17/18: 20.3 PPG 3.1 RPG 5.2 AST / 44.4 FG% 32.1 FG3% 88.4 FT%
Kyrie seems much more engaged on defence but his steals averages have only slightly increased from 1.3 career to 1.9 so it hasn't been the dramatic change that the media's narrative has spun.
You are posting raw numbers, and the hype is about defense, which the advance stats show. 1.3-1.9 seem like a low number until you realize that its almost a 50% improvement in a stat that doesnt have big numbers.
His offense hasn't looked too fluid yet, and that will come in time. He's posting similar numbers but with lower USG, which means its more efficient. But his defense has been real, even though we dont know if it will hold on. Goes to show how bad IT and Kyrie's defense was last year. Heck even Cavs fans are noticing his D and are p---ed.
-
I think he's just getting the recognition he moved for in the first place.
-
He’s been over-hyped as the savior of our team, but I’m happy with his performance overall. The shooting will come. And, in fairness, those are per-game averages and he only played 2 minutes in one of the games.
But, yes, his offense hasn’t been great yet, and the team offense has regressed a bit.
-
It’s tougher to shoot well when actually playing defense. Hopefully those 3’s will start to drop though.
-
Hear me out!
I love how Kyrie is functioning in our offence and I think he is only going to improve, but pundits and fans alike have been raving about how much Irving has changed this season but if you look at his statistics this year in comparison to his career they are almost identical.
Career: 21.6 PPG 3.4 RPG 5.5 AST / 45.6 FG% 38.1 FG3% 87.3 FT%
17/18: 20.3 PPG 3.1 RPG 5.2 AST / 44.4 FG% 32.1 FG3% 88.4 FT%
Kyrie seems much more engaged on defence but his steals averages have only slightly increased from 1.3 career to 1.9 so it hasn't been the dramatic change that the media's narrative has spun.
I disagree, And this is from someone who loves Isaiah Thomas.
He is trending towards being a much more complete plater now.
And 1.3 to 1.9 is a 50% increase. That's pretty substantial.
Yeah, and his defense as a whole has been much better than this stat lets on.
Plus, I don't think he's even played that well offensively for himself yet either. I think his shot will start hitting better, especially from beyond the arc, and he'll improve even more moving forward.
-
Actually it is a post like this that makes me actually join the conversation and say, Hell no! it is time to start the Kyrie hype!! So thanks for bringing it up! I love the way Kyrie is playing! I have actually been pleasantly surprised with Kyrie's all around game!
So thanks and let's start the Hype!!
-
My eyeball test: he is defending well on-ball, which is huge for the team d. On offense, he is orchestrating a team offense more, and less of the spread high pick and roll default NBA street ball a lot of teams default to (like us last year). It seems deceptively simple, but the impact is huge.
-
It depends on what kind of change you're looking for, I guess. Some folks may have pictured Kyrie coming here and trying to outscore IT, and get into the MVP race. That's not happening.
As far as counting stats, it's early and there are no obvious big changes, but the one I find interesting is 25 steals and 25 turnovers. If that ratio even half holds, it's a good omen.
-
My eyeball test: he is defending well on-ball, which is huge for the team d. On offense, he is orchestrating a team offense more, and less of the spread high pick and roll default NBA street ball a lot of teams default to (like us last year). It seems deceptively simple, but the impact is huge.
What’s the huge impact you’re seeing offensively?
-
He's played terrific basketball for the most part. Wad up stats, throw them in the garbage and watch the games. He's unquestionably an all-star, and he's playing with a bunch of strangers. No telling how good he'll be a year from now after he's had the chance to adjust to Brad's system and his teammates.
-
His offensive box plus/minus is in line with his best years in Cleveland despite the fact that he's not hitting from three right now. His defensive box plus/minus, averaging -1.5 in his six years in Cleveland, is sitting at 1.1 - a monumental (and likely not entirely sustainable) difference.
Sample sizes are still very small at this stage of the season, but he's playing great basketball right now. A top 15 player in the league by most measures.
-
He is playing better team ball. I don't know if it's system or the role he now plays.
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
LOL what? "Irving is a winner" so you're telling me there are only select few "winners" out there? What was Isaiah last year, "not a winner"?
How do you even determine that. ??? :P
-
*Scratching head*
Did folks expect or even want him to come to boston and Average 35.. Because you know he could, it would be to the detriment of wins and losses but he totally could.. We were afraid of him being a ballhog, coming in here looking for scoring numbers, and instead has come in and played Team ball and you can see that everything about his game has improved and yet still some of us are just not happy... Jeeze man. The guy is playing a brand of basketball that attracts other superstars... Why cant we be happy?
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
LOL what? "Irving is a winner" so you're telling me there are only select few "winners" out there? What was Isaiah last year, "not a winner"?
How do you even determine that. ??? :P
By rings. One to nothing.
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
LOL what? "Irving is a winner" so you're telling me there are only select few "winners" out there? What was Isaiah last year, "not a winner"?
How do you even determine that. ??? :P
By rings. One to nothing.
Okay that's pretty ridiculous.
So by that logic, all the guys like Iman Shumpert, Matthew Dellavedova, etc. are all pure winners? You actually would think that?
-
12 game winning streak and people are complaining? Strange...
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
LOL what? "Irving is a winner" so you're telling me there are only select few "winners" out there? What was Isaiah last year, "not a winner"?
How do you even determine that. ??? :P
By rings. One to nothing.
Okay that's pretty ridiculous.
So by that logic, all the guys like Iman Shumpert, Matthew Dellavedova, etc. are all pure winners? You actually would think that?
to be fair Irving averaged 27/4/4 on 47/41/94 splits in the finals including a 40 point game in Golden State for a must win game 5 and then the dagger 3 in game 7.
"rings" is a dumb argument but Irving's playoff resume is unbelievable
-
12 game winning streak and people are complaining? Strange...
but predictable.
-
Since Boston players never get enough hype. I’m glad he’s getting it and the team/Brad and Danny is getting it.
#Celtics
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
LOL what? "Irving is a winner" so you're telling me there are only select few "winners" out there? What was Isaiah last year, "not a winner"?
How do you even determine that. ??? :P
By rings. One to nothing.
Okay that's pretty ridiculous.
So by that logic, all the guys like Iman Shumpert, Matthew Dellavedova, etc. are all pure winners? You actually would think that?
to be fair Irving averaged 27/4/4 on 47/41/94 splits in the finals including a 40 point game in Golden State for a must win game 5 and then the dagger 3 in game 7.
"rings" is a dumb argument but Irving's playoff resume is unbelievable
Yep, this is what I agree with. ;D
Irving's proven playoff resume certainly gives us an advantage for the postseason. With due respect to IT and others, you never really knew what to expect going into playoff games (can this guy step up? what happens if they triple team Isaiah?). It's why we won some games big, but also got blown out of the water in others.
And I know even after Game 3's win without Isaiah, no one expected us to win the series (even us fans), but we actually did well Game 4. But Kyrie absolutely took over and pretty much single-handedly took away any chance of tying the series and coming back.
-
Sample sizes this year are still way too small to start making any meaningful inferences. DRtg, like most defensive stats, is incredibly flawed. To my knowledge, it's essentially a +/- on steroids, and corrects for things like pace and teammate contributions. But it does a very poor job of isolating individual contributions and is reliant on stats as they're quantified and reported on sites like Bballref.
-
Sample sizes this year are still way too small to start making any meaningful inferences. DRtg, like most defensive stats, is incredibly flawed. To my knowledge, it's essentially a +/- on steroids, and corrects for things like pace and teammate contributions. But it does a very poor job of isolating individual contributions and is reliant on stats as they're quantified and reported on sites like Bballref.
Yeah yeah we get it, you hate Kyrie.
-
Sample sizes this year are still way too small to start making any meaningful inferences. DRtg, like most defensive stats, is incredibly flawed. To my knowledge, it's essentially a +/- on steroids, and corrects for things like pace and teammate contributions. But it does a very poor job of isolating individual contributions and is reliant on stats as they're quantified and reported on sites like Bballref.
Yeah yeah we get it, you hate Kyrie.
Really wasn't my point. IT was a horrible defender, worst than Kyrie will be in Boston. Defensive stats have always seemed way too flawed to take seriously imo.
-
Sample sizes this year are still way too small to start making any meaningful inferences. DRtg, like most defensive stats, is incredibly flawed. To my knowledge, it's essentially a +/- on steroids, and corrects for things like pace and teammate contributions. But it does a very poor job of isolating individual contributions and is reliant on stats as they're quantified and reported on sites like Bballref.
Yeah yeah we get it, you hate Kyrie.
Really wasn't my point. IT was a horrible defender, worst than Kyrie will be in Boston. Defensive stats have always seemed way too flawed to take seriously imo.
Stats do not explain basketball well like they do for baseball. Their are too intangibles. You can see someone having a great game with average stats and you can see someone filling up the stats having a bad to mediocre game. Basketball is a team sport and win loss is the best judgement on how good a team is.
-
Sample sizes this year are still way too small to start making any meaningful inferences. DRtg, like most defensive stats, is incredibly flawed. To my knowledge, it's essentially a +/- on steroids, and corrects for things like pace and teammate contributions. But it does a very poor job of isolating individual contributions and is reliant on stats as they're quantified and reported on sites like Bballref.
Yeah yeah we get it, you hate Kyrie.
Really wasn't my point. IT was a horrible defender, worst than Kyrie will be in Boston. Defensive stats have always seemed way too flawed to take seriously imo.
Stats do not explain basketball well like they do for baseball. Their are too intangibles. You can see someone having a great game with average stats and you can see someone filling up the stats having a bad to mediocre game. Basketball is a team sport and win loss is the best judgement on how good a team is.
I agree, and would think that also explains why Bradley was so well-respected even when his advanced defensive stats weren't world-beating at the time.
-
You guys can cool off all you want.
Octobers/Novembers numbers mean nothing to me when I have seen the future.
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
LOL what? "Irving is a winner" so you're telling me there are only select few "winners" out there? What was Isaiah last year, "not a winner"?
How do you even determine that. ??? :P
By rings. One to nothing.
Okay that's pretty ridiculous.
So by that logic, all the guys like Iman Shumpert, Matthew Dellavedova, etc. are all pure winners? You actually would think that?
It’s a simplified answer. But if you’re one of the main reasons, perhaps the main reason that team got the ring then you’re a winner.
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
LOL what? "Irving is a winner" so you're telling me there are only select few "winners" out there? What was Isaiah last year, "not a winner"?
How do you even determine that. ??? :P
By rings. One to nothing.
Okay that's pretty ridiculous.
So by that logic, all the guys like Iman Shumpert, Matthew Dellavedova, etc. are all pure winners? You actually would think that?
It’s a simplified answer. But if you’re one of the main reasons, perhaps the main reason that team got the ring then you’re a winner.
“Perhaps the main reason” the Cavs got a ring?
(https://assets-nydailynews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w680/assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2666677.1465443735!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/webcavs9s-f4w-web.jpg)
-
I don't post a lot or I would load the picture of the series winning shot in game 7 of the finals by
KYRIE!
Whatever, the Celtics are my favorite team and to me that means you Love your team. This is our point guard and I for one am a huge fan! Stats are cool I guess, but this is my team! So yes I love the players on the Celtics! I just love being a Celtics Fan!! They have given me so much joy through the years! They are winning right now and people are finding things to complain about??
Oh well, sending out my love to Kyrie and this whole Celtics team, Thank You!!!!!!
-
I don't post a lot or I would load the picture of the series winning shot in game 7 of the finals by
KYRIE!
Does hitting one shot make a guy the most important guy in a series? Or the “main reason” a team won the series?
Was Steve Kerr more important than Jordan? Was Horry more important than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan?
Nothing against Kyrie, it’s just indisputable that Lebron was the primary reason the Cavs won that title.
-
Who gives a flying #### about Stats. It’s about winning and Irving is a winner !
Some of these post are ridiculous!
Just win the game!
LOL what? "Irving is a winner" so you're telling me there are only select few "winners" out there? What was Isaiah last year, "not a winner"?
How do you even determine that. ??? :P
By rings. One to nothing.
Okay that's pretty ridiculous.
So by that logic, all the guys like Iman Shumpert, Matthew Dellavedova, etc. are all pure winners? You actually would think that?
It’s a simplified answer. But if you’re one of the main reasons, perhaps the main reason that team got the ring then you’re a winner.
“Perhaps the main reason” the Cavs got a ring?
(https://assets-nydailynews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w680/assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2666677.1465443735!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/webcavs9s-f4w-web.jpg)
He, pictured one, LBJ, is the main reason no doubt (if Kyrie at age 24 was better than him than league needs to change its marketing philosophy) Kyrie chipped in with 27.1 PPG on 47 fg%.
Also, Curry injury and Dray suspension gave Cleveland a chance in the 1st place.
Lebron left Cleveland for the 1st time cause he didn't have a scorer like Kyrie by his side.
He returned because a scorer like Kyrie was there then and they had the 1st pick in the draft to trade freely. LBJ wouldn't win without him in Cleveland, I think that's pretty clear to everyone. Did we ever diminish McHale's impact cause he wasn't as good as Larry?
This other thing, the winner talk is a nonsense IMO. If you make it in the league you are a winner in my book, as you are in the 99,99999th percentile (every 19th million human) of the most successful humans that play basketball in the world. Skill, popularity and earning wise. That's like 1 out of every living Dutch, Kazakh or Romanian.
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
Divide about 400 players that stick for more than 3 years with that number. Eg. Stockton isn't a loser or not a winner. Manute Bol, born in Sudan too or even Rex Chapman who never won a chip. They all overcame many, many obstacles and sacrifices to reach their goal.
I think that in general, many people mistake physical or skill deficiency for a guy being a loser. While common logic would tell us that being deficient in those areas clearly makes you less probable to win in the league.
-
I don't post a lot or I would load the picture of the series winning shot in game 7 of the finals by
KYRIE!
Does hitting one shot make a guy the most important guy in a series? Or the “main reason” a team won the series?
Was Steve Kerr more important than Jordan? Was Horry more important than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan?
Nothing against Kyrie, it’s just indisputable that Lebron was the primary reason the Cavs won that title.
The simple answer to that question is yes, that is why it is called the series winning shot.
But, I will not debate the Lebron is Lebron and the reason they were even there in the first place. Also, the reason Miami won the finals when he was there, that still takes nothing away from Dwade and the other players on the Heat team at the time.
-
I don't post a lot or I would load the picture of the series winning shot in game 7 of the finals by
KYRIE!
Does hitting one shot make a guy the most important guy in a series? Or the “main reason” a team won the series?
Was Steve Kerr more important than Jordan? Was Horry more important than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan?
Nothing against Kyrie, it’s just indisputable that Lebron was the primary reason the Cavs won that title.
Yikes- we're now comparing Kyrie to Steve Kerr? Kerr averaged 6 points a game in his 910 NBA games. The only thing they have in common is that they hit championship winning shots.
Lebron was clearly the #1 on Cleveland, but Kyrie was clearly the #2.
"Nothing against Kyrie?" You just compared him to Steve Kerr. We know that you don't like Kyrie, but come on man!
-
I don't post a lot or I would load the picture of the series winning shot in game 7 of the finals by
KYRIE!
Does hitting one shot make a guy the most important guy in a series? Or the “main reason” a team won the series?
Was Steve Kerr more important than Jordan? Was Horry more important than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan?
Nothing against Kyrie, it’s just indisputable that Lebron was the primary reason the Cavs won that title.
Yikes- we're now comparing Kyrie to Steve Kerr? Kerr averaged 6 points a game in his 910 NBA games. The only thing they have in common is that they hit championship winning shots.
Lebron was clearly the #1 on Cleveland, but Kyrie was clearly the #2.
"Nothing against Kyrie?" You just compared him to Steve Kerr. We know that you don't like Kyrie, but come on man!
I compared them in the sense that a series-clinching shot doesn’t make the shot-maker the primary reason his team won.
Kyrie was the second best player. There’s no shame in that, but the gap between he and Lebron is a significant one.
-
I don't post a lot or I would load the picture of the series winning shot in game 7 of the finals by
KYRIE!
Does hitting one shot make a guy the most important guy in a series? Or the “main reason” a team won the series?
Was Steve Kerr more important than Jordan? Was Horry more important than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan?
Nothing against Kyrie, it’s just indisputable that Lebron was the primary reason the Cavs won that title.
Yikes- we're now comparing Kyrie to Steve Kerr? Kerr averaged 6 points a game in his 910 NBA games. The only thing they have in common is that they hit championship winning shots.
Lebron was clearly the #1 on Cleveland, but Kyrie was clearly the #2.
"Nothing against Kyrie?" You just compared him to Steve Kerr. We know that you don't like Kyrie, but come on man!
I compared them in the sense that a series-clinching shot doesn’t make the shot-maker the primary reason his team won.
Kyrie was the second best player. There’s no shame in that, but the gap between he and Lebron is a significant one.
Kyrie's shot was clutch. No doubt. But the thing I remember about that game was guys on both sides choking repeatedly shown the stretch. Kyrie's filed goal was the only one in the several minutes of the game. It was almost like it was the law of odds that one bucket would go in.
-
I don't post a lot or I would load the picture of the series winning shot in game 7 of the finals by
KYRIE!
Does hitting one shot make a guy the most important guy in a series? Or the “main reason” a team won the series?
Was Steve Kerr more important than Jordan? Was Horry more important than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan?
Nothing against Kyrie, it’s just indisputable that Lebron was the primary reason the Cavs won that title.
Yikes- we're now comparing Kyrie to Steve Kerr? Kerr averaged 6 points a game in his 910 NBA games. The only thing they have in common is that they hit championship winning shots.
Lebron was clearly the #1 on Cleveland, but Kyrie was clearly the #2.
"Nothing against Kyrie?" You just compared him to Steve Kerr. We know that you don't like Kyrie, but come on man!
I compared them in the sense that a series-clinching shot doesn’t make the shot-maker the primary reason his team won.
Kyrie was the second best player. There’s no shame in that, but the gap between he and Lebron is a significant one.
The gap between LeBron and anyone is significant. Kyrie was not only the 2nd best player, he was in the top-10 in the league at the time in some people's minds.
-
Hey everyone.
I want you to completely ignore everything you see with your own eyes.
Instead look at these numbers, see them? Now has your opinion of Kyrie changed?
-
In this thread: People who didn't like the Kyrie trade grasping at straws.
I mean guys, he was the 2nd best player on a championship team. He wasn't even better then Lebron.
When are the Celtics finally going to get their number 1 guy? Are we still 1 trade away?
-
Hey everyone.
I want you to completely ignore everything you see with your own eyes.
Instead look at these numbers, see them? Now has your opinion of Kyrie changed?
Objective stats are a good way to tell if the “eye test” is reliable. People shouldn’t be chastised for doing a statistical comparison, whether it be standard individual stats, advanced stats, or team stats.
The stats tell us the team is better, the defense is much better and the offense is worse. Kyrie is playing good defense but has struggled with his shot and isn’t getting to the line much.
Is any of that controversial?
-
Hey everyone.
I want you to completely ignore everything you see with your own eyes.
Instead look at these numbers, see them? Now has your opinion of Kyrie changed?
Objective stats are a good way to tell if the “eye test” is reliable. People shouldn’t be chastised for doing a statistical comparison, whether it be standard individual stats, advanced stats, or team stats.
The stats tell us the team is better, the defense is much better and the offense is worse. Kyrie is playing good defense but has struggled with his shot and isn’t getting to the line much.
Is any of that controversial?
Pretty spot on from what my eyes have seen so far.
-
Hey everyone.
I want you to completely ignore everything you see with your own eyes.
Instead look at these numbers, see them? Now has your opinion of Kyrie changed?
Objective stats are a good way to tell if the “eye test” is reliable. People shouldn’t be chastised for doing a statistical comparison, whether it be standard individual stats, advanced stats, or team stats.
The stats tell us the team is better, the defense is much better and the offense is worse. Kyrie is playing good defense but has struggled with his shot and isn’t getting to the line much.
Is any of that controversial?
Pretty spot on from what my eyes have seen so far.
I think the decline in offense has more to do with a lack of continuity than Kyrie's shooting inconsistency. Our teams 3pt% is nearly identical to last year and we are getting to the free throw line 5 more times per game. These are all great signs indicating that our offense should be on par with last seasons by the end of the year.
The loss of Bradley, Crowder, and Olynyk has has definitely hurt our execution in half court sets. Crowder was part of our two best offensive lineups going by offensive rating. Bradley was part of our second best. This speaks to the value of having a group together for 2+ seasons in Brad's system. Fortunately these are all short term issues that will be corrected with practice and repetition.
-
I've been pretty happy with his play. He sometimes drifts into hero ball mode which can be aggravating and once in a while takes some ill advised shots but IT was doing the same thing. Still think he's a talent upgrade from IT and he's been able to gel with this roster right off the bat which was a concern I had going into the season. Thought it might take some time but it really hasn't.
-
I think the loss of Larry Bird has really hurt our 3 point shooting. This is the team we have now!
You can review stats and not be happy all day long. Or just enjoy the ride!
I choose to just enjoy the ride!
-
I think the hype has been twofold. One, his defense is has matched even the wildest hopes of Kyrie fans, so far. Two, while his raw scoring numbers aren't any better than they've always been, the way he's scoring those points is different. He's playing a team game, getting everyone involved and allowing himself to be a background player in an effort to get others' into rhythm but then he's still been there in clutch moments when he's needed.
So that's why I'm hyped about Kyrie, even though his raw numbers don't show a ton of improvement.
That and because the C's are on a 12 game win streak, there's not much that could diminish my general hype about this team right now. ;D
-
The reason I have a problem with using stats sometimes, is that people have used them here to say that IT is a better player then Kyrie.
-
I've been pretty happy with his play. He sometimes drifts into hero ball mode which can be aggravating and once in a while takes some ill advised shots but IT was doing the same thing. Still think he's a talent upgrade from IT and he's been able to gel with this roster right off the bat which was a concern I had going into the season. Thought it might take some time but it really hasn't.
Yeah he's trying to do the right things and playing hard on D overall.
My main complaint is his shot isn't falling right now, compared to his past performance with similar shots. That should turn around.
-
Hear me out!
I love how Kyrie is functioning in our offence and I think he is only going to improve, but pundits and fans alike have been raving about how much Irving has changed this season but if you look at his statistics this year in comparison to his career they are almost identical.
Career: 21.6 PPG 3.4 RPG 5.5 AST / 45.6 FG% 38.1 FG3% 87.3 FT%
17/18: 20.3 PPG 3.1 RPG 5.2 AST / 44.4 FG% 32.1 FG3% 88.4 FT%
Kyrie seems much more engaged on defence but his steals averages have only slightly increased from 1.3 career to 1.9 so it hasn't been the dramatic change that the media's narrative has spun.
I disagree, And this is from someone who loves Isaiah Thomas.
He is trending towards being a much more complete plater now.
And 1.3 to 1.9 is a 50% increase. That's pretty substantial.
That 1.9 is an unsustainable rate on a small sample size. It was 2.3 just three games ago. He'll regress much closer to his career average.
That's not to say he won't be playing good defense. But anyone who is trotting out the steals number as proof of his defensive prowess is asking for trouble.
-
I think the loss of Larry Bird has really hurt our 3 point shooting. This is the team we have now!
You can review stats and not be happy all day long. Or just enjoy the ride!
I choose to just enjoy the ride!
Haha TP.
We really could use Havlicek's timely steals, as well as Tiny Archibald's coast to coast abilities. McHale and Parish would fit nicely on this team.
-
Steals is not the only defensive statistic. You are completely ignoring all actual defensive stats
“It's not just the steals or Boston's defensive rating when Irving is on the court, it's his obvious effort and desire to contribute on that end of the floor.
In his six seasons in Cleveland, Irving held an average defensive rating of 106.9. Through 11 games with Boston, that number is down 11.4 points to 95.5, even lower than Boston's league-best rating of 95.9.”
“Kyrie Irving is putting up some of the best individual numbers of his career this season. Here's a look at his career defensive rating via NBA data, as well as his points allowed per possession via Synergy Sports data.” http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21329484/kyrie-irving-boston-celtics-flat-dominating-defense
Umm.... I don't know where you are getting your defensive rating numbers, but per nbawowy.com, so far this season Kyrie has been on the floor for 767 defensive possessions during which the opponents have scored 802 points which is a defensive rating of 104.5 points per 100 possessions.
With Kyrie OFF the floor, the team has surrendered 511 points on 509 defensive possessions for a defensive rating of 100.5 points per 100 possessions.
If you are using the individual Defensive Rating numbers from basketball-reference.com, keep in mind that those are estimates, not measurements. And they give Aron Baynes the same 111 offensive rating as they do to Kyrie, when in fact the team has actually only scored 103.5 points per 100 offensive possessions with Aron on the floor. In other words, I would take those numbers with a big grain of salt.
-
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/celtics_insider/2017/11/kyrie_irving_ready_to_return_after_painful_face_injury
Kyrie "cool the hype" Irving should be back tonight.
-
He has become a more complete player and is a def MVP candidate.
-
Steals is not the only defensive statistic. You are completely ignoring all actual defensive stats
“It's not just the steals or Boston's defensive rating when Irving is on the court, it's his obvious effort and desire to contribute on that end of the floor.
In his six seasons in Cleveland, Irving held an average defensive rating of 106.9. Through 11 games with Boston, that number is down 11.4 points to 95.5, even lower than Boston's league-best rating of 95.9.”
“Kyrie Irving is putting up some of the best individual numbers of his career this season. Here's a look at his career defensive rating via NBA data, as well as his points allowed per possession via Synergy Sports data.” http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21329484/kyrie-irving-boston-celtics-flat-dominating-defense
Umm.... I don't know where you are getting your defensive rating numbers, but per nbawowy.com, so far this season Kyrie has been on the floor for 767 defensive possessions during which the opponents have scored 802 points which is a defensive rating of 104.5 points per 100 possessions.
With Kyrie OFF the floor, the team has surrendered 511 points on 509 defensive possessions for a defensive rating of 100.5 points per 100 possessions.
If you are using the individual Defensive Rating numbers from basketball-reference.com, keep in mind that those are estimates, not measurements. And they give Aron Baynes the same 111 offensive rating as they do to Kyrie, when in fact the team has actually only scored 103.5 points per 100 offensive possessions with Aron on the floor. In other words, I would take those numbers with a big grain of salt.
Take 5 minutes and compare the data between NBAwowy and NBA.com, you will find a lot of difference in the statistical data. NBA.com is the official site of the NBA. Quoting these off sites leads to a lot of misinformation and confusion.
-
He has become a more complete player and is a def MVP candidate.
not yet he isnt.
Needs to get that scoring way up and the offense needs to improve (Which would likely happen as a result of him making shots hes made the rest of his career) before we even start that conversation.
-
He has become a more complete player and is a def MVP candidate.
not yet he isnt.
Needs to get that scoring way up and the offense needs to improve (Which would likely happen as a result of him making shots hes made the rest of his career) before we even start that conversation.
Actually he is in the early season talks already. A few of the talking heads have been bringing it up (right before he went out) His Scoring does not have to go "way" up - he is at 20 now.. Steve Nash won it twice scoring under 20 - Magic won it twice at around 22.. IF this team keeps this winning pace and he stays at at least 20 he will win it easy.. But even if he doesnt - he will definitely be a candidate.. (he already is)
-
I think the loss of Larry Bird has really hurt our 3 point shooting. This is the team we have now!
You can review stats and not be happy all day long. Or just enjoy the ride!
I choose to just enjoy the ride!
Haha TP.
We really could use Havlicek's timely steals, as well as Tiny Archibald's coast to coast abilities. McHale and Parish would fit nicely on this team.
TP right back to ya! Those are some great memories!! Here's to this team creating great new ones!! Enjoy the ride!
-
He has become a more complete player and is a def MVP candidate.
not yet he isnt.
Needs to get that scoring way up and the offense needs to improve (Which would likely happen as a result of him making shots hes made the rest of his career) before we even start that conversation.
Actually he is in the early season talks already. A few of the talking heads have been bringing it up (right before he went out) His Scoring does not have to go "way" up - he is at 20 now.. Steve Nash won it twice scoring under 20 - Magic won it twice at around 22.. IF this team keeps this winning pace and he stays at at least 20 he will win it easy.. But even if he doesnt - he will definitely be a candidate.. (he already is)
I love Kyrie, but I don't think he's in the running, yet. I think Horford's improvement also has contributed to our great start, which I don't plan on lasting.
Kyrie's statistics are not there, and make no bones about it- the MVP usually is a top 3 statistical player in the league. Kyrie's ppg, assists, fg%, rebounds, etc. are not the best in the league. He will need an uptick in many of the other categories besides scoring to be considered.
At 25 ppg, I think he'd need 10 assists, 6 rebounds, 40% from 3 to secure an MVP.
Greek Freak, Westbrook, Davis, Lebron, etc. will all likely have better stats than Kyrie.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
-
He has become a more complete player and is a def MVP candidate.
not yet he isnt.
Needs to get that scoring way up and the offense needs to improve (Which would likely happen as a result of him making shots hes made the rest of his career) before we even start that conversation.
Actually he is in the early season talks already. A few of the talking heads have been bringing it up (right before he went out) His Scoring does not have to go "way" up - he is at 20 now.. Steve Nash won it twice scoring under 20 - Magic won it twice at around 22.. IF this team keeps this winning pace and he stays at at least 20 he will win it easy.. But even if he doesnt - he will definitely be a candidate.. (he already is)
I love Kyrie, but I don't think he's in the running, yet. I think Horford's improvement also has contributed to our great start, which I don't plan on lasting.
Kyrie's statistics are not there, and make no bones about it- the MVP usually is a top 3 statistical player in the league. Kyrie's ppg, assists, fg%, rebounds, etc. are not the best in the league. He will need an uptick in many of the other categories besides scoring to be considered.
At 25 ppg, I think he'd need 10 assists, 6 rebounds, 40% from 3 to secure an MVP.
Greek Freak, Westbrook, Davis, Lebron, etc. will all likely have better stats than Kyrie.
Why don't you think Horford can keep it up?
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
WRONG! (In my best Donald Trump Voice) JK it's close but slightly worse.
Last year 2016 100.1 NBA Team Possessions per Game PACE of 99.3 8th
This year 2017 99.4 NBA Team Possessions per Game PACE of 98.6 19th
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2017
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2017
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/possessions-per-game
-
I disagree with the entire premise of this thread. There is no need to tell anyone how much they should hype Kyrie. My advice to everyone is to enjoy it and hype him as much or as little as you want. We are on pace to win 70 games. After tonight, we may be on pace for 71. And that is without Hayward. I know that I did not see this coming.
Of course, we are 2-0 in games that Irving plays 2 min. or less so maybe we are over-hyping him. We are 2-0 without Horford too so I guess we are over-hyping him too.
-
I disagree with the entire premise of this thread. There is no need to tell anyone how much they should hype Kyrie. My advice to everyone is to enjoy it and hype him as much or as little as you want. We are on pace to win 70 games. After tonight, we may be on pace for 71. And that is without Hayward. I know that I did not see this coming.
Of course, we are 2-0 in games that Irving plays 2 min. or less so maybe we are over-hyping him. We are 2-0 without Horford too so I guess we are over-hyping him too.
So play Kyrie for 2 minutes or less...Go 80-2 for the season and have a super well rested point guard for the post season.
Simple enough
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
WRONG! (In my best Donald Trump Voice) JK it's close but slightly worse.
Last year 2016 100.1 NBA Team Possessions per Game PACE of 99.3 8th
This year 2017 99.4 NBA Team Possessions per Game PACE of 98.6 19th
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2017
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2017
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/possessions-per-game
Celtics fast break points per game the last 3 years. 15-16 season 16.3 6th in the league, 16-17 12.4 17th in the league, this year 8.1 22nd in the league. Celtics pace has gone from 15-16 101.15 3rd, to 16-17 99.32 12th, to this year 98.68 24th.
The C's are playing slower and slower as the league is playing faster and faster. The fast break points that the C's are scoring have been cut in half.
-
He has become a more complete player and is a def MVP candidate.
not yet he isnt.
Needs to get that scoring way up and the offense needs to improve (Which would likely happen as a result of him making shots hes made the rest of his career) before we even start that conversation.
Actually he is in the early season talks already. A few of the talking heads have been bringing it up (right before he went out) His Scoring does not have to go "way" up - he is at 20 now.. Steve Nash won it twice scoring under 20 - Magic won it twice at around 22.. IF this team keeps this winning pace and he stays at at least 20 he will win it easy.. But even if he doesnt - he will definitely be a candidate.. (he already is)
I love Kyrie, but I don't think he's in the running, yet. I think Horford's improvement also has contributed to our great start, which I don't plan on lasting.
Kyrie's statistics are not there, and make no bones about it- the MVP usually is a top 3 statistical player in the league. Kyrie's ppg, assists, fg%, rebounds, etc. are not the best in the league. He will need an uptick in many of the other categories besides scoring to be considered.
At 25 ppg, I think he'd need 10 assists, 6 rebounds, 40% from 3 to secure an MVP.
Greek Freak, Westbrook, Davis, Lebron, etc. will all likely have better stats than Kyrie.
Why don't you think Horford can keep it up?
Mispoke. Intended to write that the Celtics won't continue this torrid pace.
-
Steals is not the only defensive statistic. You are completely ignoring all actual defensive stats
“It's not just the steals or Boston's defensive rating when Irving is on the court, it's his obvious effort and desire to contribute on that end of the floor.
In his six seasons in Cleveland, Irving held an average defensive rating of 106.9. Through 11 games with Boston, that number is down 11.4 points to 95.5, even lower than Boston's league-best rating of 95.9.”
“Kyrie Irving is putting up some of the best individual numbers of his career this season. Here's a look at his career defensive rating via NBA data, as well as his points allowed per possession via Synergy Sports data.” http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21329484/kyrie-irving-boston-celtics-flat-dominating-defense
Umm.... I don't know where you are getting your defensive rating numbers, but per nbawowy.com, so far this season Kyrie has been on the floor for 767 defensive possessions during which the opponents have scored 802 points which is a defensive rating of 104.5 points per 100 possessions.
With Kyrie OFF the floor, the team has surrendered 511 points on 509 defensive possessions for a defensive rating of 100.5 points per 100 possessions.
If you are using the individual Defensive Rating numbers from basketball-reference.com, keep in mind that those are estimates, not measurements. And they give Aron Baynes the same 111 offensive rating as they do to Kyrie, when in fact the team has actually only scored 103.5 points per 100 offensive possessions with Aron on the floor. In other words, I would take those numbers with a big grain of salt.
Take 5 minutes and compare the data between NBAwowy and NBA.com, you will find a lot of difference in the statistical data. NBA.com is the official site of the NBA. Quoting these off sites leads to a lot of misinformation and confusion.
I've spent a lot more than 5 minutes on all these sites (Yes, I'm a nerd).
It's not as simple as asserting "NBA.com is the official site". That doesn't really make any of it's derived numbers more accurate. What matters is how a value is arrived at. If they could show that their offensive/defensive rating numbers were calculated based on measured points per a measured number of possessions, that would be great. But so far, it's a bit of mystery just how their numbers are calculated. At least I haven't been able to find their published formulae.
They already have some known weirdness in the area of possession counting already because the 'pace' numbers for their boxscores are fractional (i.e., "92.45"), which makes no sense. Possession counts are integral.
Without an explanation of _how_ they are getting their possession count numbers, given the weird pace numbers it's unfortunately suspiciously likely that they are estimating based on event counts such as FGA & TOV stats, but that is prone to over counting possessions (because ORBs can result in multiple FGA on a single possession and there is no way to correct for that unless you know how the ORBs are distributed across possessions).
Evan Zamir (the statistician who created nbawowy.com) calculates his possession counts the correct way, by examining the play-by-play game-log JSON data (which he gets FROM NBA.com) and basically tracking possession changes and tracking player presence on the floor. It's not 100% infallible, due to some shortcomings in the data, but it's pretty close and the numbers are at least presented discretely so you can see what the inputs and formula are for derived values.
I'm not going to claim nbawowy.com is infallible by any stretch. Their USG calculations tend to always come up noticeably short of 100% on 5-man lineups. Of course, that particular number is an estimate and it's not a big deal.
Getting possession counts exactly right is tricky. There are several tripping points. For one, an offensive rebound normally does not start a new possession -- it simply continues the current one. However, if it is a 'team rebound' due to say, the defense tipping it out of bounds there is a chance that a substitution could occur in the middle of the possession. Same with things like a kicked ball. Similarly, when two free throws are taken, players of often subbed in between. Technically, from a TEAM and GAME perspective, this is still just the same possession because there has been no official "change of possession". But different sites handle that differently since the players on the floor have changed. Some count it as a new possession only if players have changed. Others just go ahead and give more players credit for participating in the one possession (this is probably the correct way).
And as I noted, some sites don't do actual possession tracking but rather simply estimate the number of possessions during a period of time based on other stats.
-
He has become a more complete player and is a def MVP candidate.
not yet he isnt.
Needs to get that scoring way up and the offense needs to improve (Which would likely happen as a result of him making shots hes made the rest of his career) before we even start that conversation.
Actually he is in the early season talks already. A few of the talking heads have been bringing it up (right before he went out) His Scoring does not have to go "way" up - he is at 20 now.. Steve Nash won it twice scoring under 20 - Magic won it twice at around 22.. IF this team keeps this winning pace and he stays at at least 20 he will win it easy.. But even if he doesnt - he will definitely be a candidate.. (he already is)
I love Kyrie, but I don't think he's in the running, yet. I think Horford's improvement also has contributed to our great start, which I don't plan on lasting.
Kyrie's statistics are not there, and make no bones about it- the MVP usually is a top 3 statistical player in the league. Kyrie's ppg, assists, fg%, rebounds, etc. are not the best in the league. He will need an uptick in many of the other categories besides scoring to be considered.
At 25 ppg, I think he'd need 10 assists, 6 rebounds, 40% from 3 to secure an MVP.
Greek Freak, Westbrook, Davis, Lebron, etc. will all likely have better stats than Kyrie.
For what it's worth (probably not much), NBA.com had Kyrie #2 on the Week 4 MVP Ladder (the latest edition) only 5 days ago. Being the leading scorer, perceived floor general, and go-to crunch-time guy for a team on a 12-game winning streak is a big deal, especially with a few of the highlights Kyrie has been sprinkling in.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
A broken face is a "minimal" injury? :o Ouch, Charlie!
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
WRONG! (In my best Donald Trump Voice) JK it's close but slightly worse.
Last year 2016 100.1 NBA Team Possessions per Game PACE of 99.3 8th
This year 2017 99.4 NBA Team Possessions per Game PACE of 98.6 19th
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2017
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2017
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/possessions-per-game
Celtics fast break points per game the last 3 years. 15-16 season 16.3 6th in the league, 16-17 12.4 17th in the league, this year 8.1 22nd in the league. Celtics pace has gone from 15-16 101.15 3rd, to 16-17 99.32 12th, to this year 98.68 24th.
The C's are playing slower and slower as the league is playing faster and faster. The fast break points that the C's are scoring have been cut in half.
In spite of all that, I don't miss the transition pull up 3 from Isaiah. Getting everyone involved and touching the ball, considering 10 new players, is more important at this point.
And pace be [dang]ed, the point is to win games, not ranking in pace. 12-2 is the stat that counts.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
Genuinely asking. He didn't leave at halftime, fyi. He left about 2 minutes into the game and your "minimal-to-no-injury" remark is just looking for attention. He also missed the following game, so that's about 2 full games where data would not be accurate.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
Genuinely asking. He didn't leave at halftime, fyi. He left about 2 minutes into the game and your "minimal-to-no-injury" remark is just looking for attention. He also missed the following game, so that's about 2 full games where data would not be accurate.
I read halftime, but I guess it doesn't matter. I don't want attention - people literally reply to my posts wishing me physical pain. A "mild facial fracture" is not an injury I've ever heard of. Sounds like he left prematurely because he a) doesn't play through injuries, b) didn't want to play without his 2 running mates, c) both.
Regardless, I can't prove it was a legitimate injury in the same way you can't prove the opposite. Hopefully he decides to play relatively soon. But it honestly doesn't even seem like we're giving up much with our backup PG play. And we're all aware that the regular season means very little come playoffs. CLE is still the team to beat, unfortunately.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
Genuinely asking. He didn't leave at halftime, fyi. He left about 2 minutes into the game and your "minimal-to-no-injury" remark is just looking for attention. He also missed the following game, so that's about 2 full games where data would not be accurate.
I read halftime, but I guess it doesn't matter. I don't want attention - people literally reply to my posts wishing me physical pain. A "mild facial fracture" is not an injury I've ever heard of. Sounds like he left prematurely because he a) doesn't play through injuries, b) didn't want to play without his 2 running mates, c) both. Regardless, I can't prove it was a legitimate injury in the same way you can't prove the opposite. Hopefully he decides to play relatively soon. But it honestly doesn't even seem like we're giving up much with our backup PG play.
That's just non-sense. Unless you're going to use that same flawed argument on Thomas because a) he didn't play through his injury during the playoffs b) didn't want to play because Kyrie and the Cavs were exposing him c) both.
You should watch more games. Just pretend Irving is Isaiah and then you can enjoy the games and be in awe at how much "the little guy" has grown and improved.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
Genuinely asking. He didn't leave at halftime, fyi. He left about 2 minutes into the game and your "minimal-to-no-injury" remark is just looking for attention. He also missed the following game, so that's about 2 full games where data would not be accurate.
I read halftime, but I guess it doesn't matter. I don't want attention - people literally reply to my posts wishing me physical pain. A "mild facial fracture" is not an injury I've ever heard of. Sounds like he left prematurely because he a) doesn't play through injuries, b) didn't want to play without his 2 running mates, c) both. Regardless, I can't prove it was a legitimate injury in the same way you can't prove the opposite. Hopefully he decides to play relatively soon. But it honestly doesn't even seem like we're giving up much with our backup PG play.
That's just non-sense. Unless you're going to use that same flawed argument on Thomas because a) he didn't play through his injury during the playoffs b) didn't want to play because Kyrie and the Cavs were exposing him c) both.
You should watch more games. Just pretend Irving is Isaiah and then you can enjoy the games and be in awe at how much "the little guy" has grown and improved.
I have argued repeatedly that we have no idea how serious IT's injury is. Are you seriously questioning whether or not IT chose to play through pain in the playoffs? That ends our conversation, unfortunatley.
I watch a lot of games. Kyrie is a cupcake. Sorry you a) do not care about that nearly as much as I do, b) see that differently, perhaps because of how marketable he is, or c) both. I'm totally cool with having a difference of opinion there. We're not going to question IT's toughness though.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
Genuinely asking. He didn't leave at halftime, fyi. He left about 2 minutes into the game and your "minimal-to-no-injury" remark is just looking for attention. He also missed the following game, so that's about 2 full games where data would not be accurate.
I read halftime, but I guess it doesn't matter. I don't want attention - people literally reply to my posts wishing me physical pain. A "mild facial fracture" is not an injury I've ever heard of. Sounds like he left prematurely because he a) doesn't play through injuries, b) didn't want to play without his 2 running mates, c) both. Regardless, I can't prove it was a legitimate injury in the same way you can't prove the opposite. Hopefully he decides to play relatively soon. But it honestly doesn't even seem like we're giving up much with our backup PG play.
That's just non-sense. Unless you're going to use that same flawed argument on Thomas because a) he didn't play through his injury during the playoffs b) didn't want to play because Kyrie and the Cavs were exposing him c) both.
You should watch more games. Just pretend Irving is Isaiah and then you can enjoy the games and be in awe at how much "the little guy" has grown and improved.
I have argued repeatedly that we have no idea how serious IT's injury is. Are you seriously questioning whether or not IT chose to play through pain in the playoffs? That ends our conversation, unfortunatley.
I watch a lot of games. Kyrie is a cupcake. Sorry you a) do not care about that nearly as much as I do, b) see that differently, perhaps because of how marketable he is, or c) both.
I'll take the "cupcake" over Isaiah any day and 99.9% of unbiased (key word) observers would too.
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
Genuinely asking. He didn't leave at halftime, fyi. He left about 2 minutes into the game and your "minimal-to-no-injury" remark is just looking for attention. He also missed the following game, so that's about 2 full games where data would not be accurate.
I read halftime, but I guess it doesn't matter. I don't want attention - people literally reply to my posts wishing me physical pain. A "mild facial fracture" is not an injury I've ever heard of. Sounds like he left prematurely because he a) doesn't play through injuries, b) didn't want to play without his 2 running mates, c) both. Regardless, I can't prove it was a legitimate injury in the same way you can't prove the opposite. Hopefully he decides to play relatively soon. But it honestly doesn't even seem like we're giving up much with our backup PG play.
That's just non-sense. Unless you're going to use that same flawed argument on Thomas because a) he didn't play through his injury during the playoffs b) didn't want to play because Kyrie and the Cavs were exposing him c) both.
You should watch more games. Just pretend Irving is Isaiah and then you can enjoy the games and be in awe at how much "the little guy" has grown and improved.
I have argued repeatedly that we have no idea how serious IT's injury is. Are you seriously questioning whether or not IT chose to play through pain in the playoffs? That ends our conversation, unfortunatley.
I watch a lot of games. Kyrie is a cupcake. Sorry you a) do not care about that nearly as much as I do, b) see that differently, perhaps because of how marketable he is, or c) both.
I'll take the "cupcake" over Isaiah any day and 99.9% of unbiased (key word) observers would too.
I've repeatedly said that the trade was an overpay that will be better for the franchise long-term.
I've also clearly stated that:
-I am biased because I strongly dislike Kyrie. There are few athletes on the planet I like less for a host of reasons. Despite that, I've shared a lot of objective (and even favorable) impressions; and better posters than I, like Roy, have provided statistical evidence.
-That doesn't change the fact that he hasn't been objectively better than IT yet. I suspect he will be.
-I believe Horford looks better this year in part because of Kyrie. Their PnR looks superior to last year's.
-Kyrie is showing better effort on defense. He's a good ball-hawker, like a cornerback. His lateral movement sucks, and he's easily bullied in the paint.
-Kyrie is better than I thought he is at penetrating, using it to create for others, and finishing at the rim. He's clearly elite at all three.
-He's a cupcake that I strongly dislike.
Fair enough?
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
Genuinely asking. He didn't leave at halftime, fyi. He left about 2 minutes into the game and your "minimal-to-no-injury" remark is just looking for attention. He also missed the following game, so that's about 2 full games where data would not be accurate.
I read halftime, but I guess it doesn't matter. I don't want attention - people literally reply to my posts wishing me physical pain. A "mild facial fracture" is not an injury I've ever heard of. Sounds like he left prematurely because he a) doesn't play through injuries, b) didn't want to play without his 2 running mates, c) both. Regardless, I can't prove it was a legitimate injury in the same way you can't prove the opposite. Hopefully he decides to play relatively soon. But it honestly doesn't even seem like we're giving up much with our backup PG play.
That's just non-sense. Unless you're going to use that same flawed argument on Thomas because a) he didn't play through his injury during the playoffs b) didn't want to play because Kyrie and the Cavs were exposing him c) both.
You should watch more games. Just pretend Irving is Isaiah and then you can enjoy the games and be in awe at how much "the little guy" has grown and improved.
I have argued repeatedly that we have no idea how serious IT's injury is. Are you seriously questioning whether or not IT chose to play through pain in the playoffs? That ends our conversation, unfortunatley.
I watch a lot of games. Kyrie is a cupcake. Sorry you a) do not care about that nearly as much as I do, b) see that differently, perhaps because of how marketable he is, or c) both.
I'll take the "cupcake" over Isaiah any day and 99.9% of unbiased (key word) observers would too.
-I am biased because I strongly dislike Kyrie. There are few athletes on the planet I like less for a host of reasons.
Why? What are some of the host of reasons you speak of?
-
Nobody brings up pace of play in are supposed "worse offense with Kyrie" arguments? Just for info it's 24th and I'm pretty sure we were playing at a much faster pace last year.
The offense is worse on a per-possession basis. We’re also 24th in both eFG% and TS%.
Our offense is ranked 19th, at 106.0 points per 100 possessions.
Last year it was 8th, at 111.2 points per 100 possessions.
Our pace is almost identical to last year, but the pace overall in the NBA is up this year, while we’ve slowed down a very small amount.
How do those numbers change with the games Irving and Horford missed?
Have you looked, or are you genuinely asking? I'm also not sure how relevant that is, given Kyrie left at halftime with what was likely minimal-to-no injury. Isn't that the only game he missed? If so, aren't we then talking about Horford's influence on the team?
Regardless, I'm really impressed with the data and information Roy has provided to support his (objective) position on Kyrie thus far. I should be striving to do the same.
Genuinely asking. He didn't leave at halftime, fyi. He left about 2 minutes into the game and your "minimal-to-no-injury" remark is just looking for attention. He also missed the following game, so that's about 2 full games where data would not be accurate.
I read halftime, but I guess it doesn't matter. I don't want attention - people literally reply to my posts wishing me physical pain. A "mild facial fracture" is not an injury I've ever heard of. Sounds like he left prematurely because he a) doesn't play through injuries, b) didn't want to play without his 2 running mates, c) both. Regardless, I can't prove it was a legitimate injury in the same way you can't prove the opposite. Hopefully he decides to play relatively soon. But it honestly doesn't even seem like we're giving up much with our backup PG play.
That's just non-sense. Unless you're going to use that same flawed argument on Thomas because a) he didn't play through his injury during the playoffs b) didn't want to play because Kyrie and the Cavs were exposing him c) both.
You should watch more games. Just pretend Irving is Isaiah and then you can enjoy the games and be in awe at how much "the little guy" has grown and improved.
I have argued repeatedly that we have no idea how serious IT's injury is. Are you seriously questioning whether or not IT chose to play through pain in the playoffs? That ends our conversation, unfortunatley.
I watch a lot of games. Kyrie is a cupcake. Sorry you a) do not care about that nearly as much as I do, b) see that differently, perhaps because of how marketable he is, or c) both.
I'll take the "cupcake" over Isaiah any day and 99.9% of unbiased (key word) observers would too.
-I am biased because I strongly dislike Kyrie. There are few athletes on the planet I like less for a host of reasons.
Why? What are some of the host of reasons you speak of?
Does it matter what I've speaketh of? I've sporadically complained, very few agree, and that's fine. But I've watched, and have given him plenty of credit.
-
Wrong thread
-
Let me ask you guys a real question...
If you switch Isaiah Thomas with Kyrie Irving, in the same situation, who does better, and who do you think would lead to a (longer) if better winning streak, Uncle Drew or King of the 4th? You have to take into account the increased defensive potential the Celtics have mustered out there. We're infinitely an superior team. Does the few inches really mean that much of a difference, or is Kyrie benefiting more from Horford, than Isaiah did?
We'll see. The season is still young.
-
Let me ask you guys a real question...
If you switch Isaiah Thomas with Kyrie Irving, in the same situation, who does better, and who do you think would lead to a (longer) if better winning streak, Uncle Drew or King of the 4th? You have to take into account the increased defensive potential the Celtics have mustered out there. We're infinitely an superior team. Does the few inches really mean that much of a difference, or is Kyrie benefiting more from Horford, than Isaiah did?
We'll see. The season is still young.
Hard to tell. I think a big reason the offense has been so mediocre is because they are all adjusting to eachother. Not sure how much smoother the transition would have been with Isaiah still here.
-
LOL at anyone who compares Kyries short time here to IT last season.
He had played in this offense for almost two years, and with mostly the same core, and yet you compare him to Kyrie, who is new to both the team and the system, as are most of the other players.
Seriously, you don't think Kyrie will look better after 2 and a half years with similar players and the same system?
-
LOL at anyone who compares Kyries short time here to IT last season.
He had played in this offense for almost two years, and with mostly the same core, and yet you compare him to Kyrie, who is new to both the team and the system, as are most of the other players.
Seriously, you don't think Kyrie will look better after 2 and a half years with similar players and the same system?
I think few disagree that Kyrie is a better fit for the Celtics long term.
The points of contention seem to be:
-Is Kyrie Irving a cupcake?
-Should we dampen our expectations of Kyrie?
I think Kyrie might have nursed some injuries and missed a couple games in the past. I also think he's on the "fragile" side of the NBA spectrum. I'm not ready to call him a cupcake, yet. I'm going to see what he does in a full year with the Celtics before I judge that.
I also see no reason why we can't be optimistic about his future. His handle might be the best in the league.
-
His handle might be the best in the league.
I think it’s the best, hands down.
-
LOL at anyone who compares Kyries short time here to IT last season.
He had played in this offense for almost two years, and with mostly the same core, and yet you compare him to Kyrie, who is new to both the team and the system, as are most of the other players.
Seriously, you don't think Kyrie will look better after 2 and a half years with similar players and the same system?
I think few disagree that Kyrie is a better fit for the Celtics long term.
The points of contention seem to be:
-Is Kyrie Irving a cupcake?
-Should we dampen our expectations of Kyrie?
I think Kyrie might have nursed some injuries and missed a couple games in the past. I also think he's on the "fragile" side of the NBA spectrum. I'm not ready to call him a cupcake, yet. I'm going to see what he does in a full year with the Celtics before I judge that.
I also see no reason why we can't be optimistic about his future. His handle might be the best in the league.
Well, he went to Duke, soooooooooo
-
LOL at anyone who compares Kyries short time here to IT last season.
He had played in this offense for almost two years, and with mostly the same core, and yet you compare him to Kyrie, who is new to both the team and the system, as are most of the other players.
Seriously, you don't think Kyrie will look better after 2 and a half years with similar players and the same system?
I think few disagree that Kyrie is a better fit for the Celtics long term.
The points of contention seem to be:
-Is Kyrie Irving a cupcake?
-Should we dampen our expectations of Kyrie?
I think Kyrie might have nursed some injuries and missed a couple games in the past. I also think he's on the "fragile" side of the NBA spectrum. I'm not ready to call him a cupcake, yet. I'm going to see what he does in a full year with the Celtics before I judge that.
I also see no reason why we can't be optimistic about his future. His handle might be the best in the league.
Well, he went to Duke, soooooooooo
As did Jaysen.
God help us.
lol
-
Celtics fast break points per game the last 3 years. 15-16 season 16.3 6th in the league, 16-17 12.4 17th in the league, this year 8.1 22nd in the league. Celtics pace has gone from 15-16 101.15 3rd, to 16-17 99.32 12th, to this year 98.68 24th.
The C's are playing slower and slower as the league is playing faster and faster. The fast break points that the C's are scoring have been cut in half.
Great points, TP Our eyes often fail us when it comes to measuring empirical data such as basketball stats. It is part of being human.
The only reason I was aware of this is that I had looked it prior to posting in thread, like 3-4 days before.
-
LOL at anyone who compares Kyries short time here to IT last season.
He had played in this offense for almost two years, and with mostly the same core, and yet you compare him to Kyrie, who is new to both the team and the system, as are most of the other players.
Seriously, you don't think Kyrie will look better after 2 and a half years with similar players and the same system?
It had a generationally good single season for the Celtics last season but I agree that that is not the baseline to which to measure Irving, at least as it relates to assessing the trade. The way to compare in terms of the trade is who is the player that we should be building around for the next 5 years.
I think that Kyrie can play the next 5 seasons at a level that is in the range of what IT did in 2016-17, maybe better. I don't think IT will match that season ever again. Based on the short sample size we have with Kyrie as a Celtic, I think Kyrie is better than IT, maybe only slightly better than the 2016-17 IT, but if you consider their statistical mean to date and projected for the future, Kyrie in my mind projects better and more than a little better.
Even without injury, IT would likely "revert to his mean" to some degree. That "mean" is still really good, just not quite as good as Kyrie's mean. Then you throw in the injury and the difference in age, and I feel it is clear that Kyrie is a much better investment. I am very excited that he is a Celtic for at least two seasons and probably more and I don't intend to "cool" my excitement in any way.
-
If anyone is curious, here are ITs stats for his first 15 Celtic games:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais02/gamelog/2015#263-277-sum:pgl_basic
I was delighted by them, even though they don't look like much, as I knew he can only be better after some time.
I am applying the same logic to Kyrie's numbers.
Both are so "pointy" for the defenses to not get pierced.
-
LOL at anyone who compares Kyries short time here to IT last season.
He had played in this offense for almost two years, and with mostly the same core, and yet you compare him to Kyrie, who is new to both the team and the system, as are most of the other players.
Seriously, you don't think Kyrie will look better after 2 and a half years with similar players and the same system?
It had a generationally good single season for the Celtics last season but I agree that that is not the baseline to which to measure Irving, at least as it relates to assessing the trade. The way to compare in terms of the trade is who is the player that we should be building around for the next 5 years.
I think that Kyrie can play the next 5 seasons at a level that is in the range of what IT did in 2016-17, maybe better. I don't think IT will match that season ever again. Based on the short sample size we have with Kyrie as a Celtic, I think Kyrie is better than IT, maybe only slightly better than the 2016-17 IT, but if you consider their statistical mean to date and projected for the future, Kyrie in my mind projects better and more than a little better.
Even without injury, IT would likely "revert to his mean" to some degree. That "mean" is still really good, just not quite as good as Kyrie's mean. Then you throw in the injury and the difference in age, and I feel it is clear that Kyrie is a much better investment. I am very excited that he is a Celtic for at least two seasons and probably more and I don't intend to "cool" my excitement in any way.
I agree with a lot of that, and understand almost all of it. The only thing I don’t get at all:
Based on the short sample size we have with Kyrie as a Celtic, I think Kyrie is better than IT, maybe only slightly better than the 2016-17 IT
Based on what we’ve seen of both players in green, what elevates current Kyrie over 2017 IT?
-
LOL at anyone who compares Kyries short time here to IT last season.
He had played in this offense for almost two years, and with mostly the same core, and yet you compare him to Kyrie, who is new to both the team and the system, as are most of the other players.
Seriously, you don't think Kyrie will look better after 2 and a half years with similar players and the same system?
It had a generationally good single season for the Celtics last season but I agree that that is not the baseline to which to measure Irving, at least as it relates to assessing the trade. The way to compare in terms of the trade is who is the player that we should be building around for the next 5 years.
I think that Kyrie can play the next 5 seasons at a level that is in the range of what IT did in 2016-17, maybe better. I don't think IT will match that season ever again. Based on the short sample size we have with Kyrie as a Celtic, I think Kyrie is better than IT, maybe only slightly better than the 2016-17 IT, but if you consider their statistical mean to date and projected for the future, Kyrie in my mind projects better and more than a little better.
Even without injury, IT would likely "revert to his mean" to some degree. That "mean" is still really good, just not quite as good as Kyrie's mean. Then you throw in the injury and the difference in age, and I feel it is clear that Kyrie is a much better investment. I am very excited that he is a Celtic for at least two seasons and probably more and I don't intend to "cool" my excitement in any way.
I agree with a lot of that, and understand almost all of it. The only thing I don’t get at all:
Based on the short sample size we have with Kyrie as a Celtic, I think Kyrie is better than IT, maybe only slightly better than the 2016-17 IT
Based on what we’ve seen of both players in green, what elevates current Kyrie over 2017 IT?
Defense. Half the game.
-
Based on the short sample size we have with Kyrie as a Celtic, I think Kyrie is better than IT, maybe only slightly better than the 2016-17 IT
Based on what we’ve seen of both players in green, what elevates current Kyrie over 2017 IT?
The fact that even though you won't confuse Kyrie for a defensive stopper, you actually do not have to devise an entire defensive system to hide him away from the action. Or are we just looking at the offensive side of the ball now?
-
Based on the short sample size we have with Kyrie as a Celtic, I think Kyrie is better than IT, maybe only slightly better than the 2016-17 IT
Based on what we’ve seen of both players in green, what elevates current Kyrie over 2017 IT?
The fact that even though you won't confuse Kyrie for a defensive stopper, you actually do not have to devise an entire defensive system to hide him away from the action. Or are we just looking at the offensive side of the ball now?
That was it. Got me decided longterm too.
Those were some ugly compromises for the D, running him ASAP to (any) corner, just to get away further from the PNR action. And also Smart (and others too) switching one more time before the "real switch" to postpone/negate the switch where IT gets to be involved in the main action. I am glad that is a part of Celtic history now, as it never smelled like a win-big type of basketball.
-
I agree with a lot of that, and understand almost all of it. The only thing I don’t get at all:
Based on the short sample size we have with Kyrie as a Celtic, I think Kyrie is better than IT, maybe only slightly better than the 2016-17 IT
Based on what we’ve seen of both players in green, what elevates current Kyrie over 2017 IT?
Kyrie is making as many big shots so far (although not quite as many overall shots); is showing more ability to get other involved, maybe not based on assist stats but he seems to open up more things for other player but at time after multiple passes (so doesn't count as an assist); is playing better defense and enabling better overall team defense; and is just getting started on a team that suffered a major loss in the first game.
Yes, I think Kyrie is right there with 2016-17 IT, and maybe a little better (hard to be all that much better than what IT did last season).